98 réponses à ce sujet

[Hudathan]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The destructive force of a relay comes from the massive energy core. In 'Arrival' you can clearly see that the energy became disturbed after its physical container was already destroyed, causing the energy to go out of control and then explode AFTER the relay was broken. In the ending to ME3, the relay charges up instead and releases all the energy in the form of the beam BEFORE breaking up, causing a completely different type of explosion instead. The beam itself then becomes whatever color energy needed for the control/synthesis/destroy, none of which is physically destructive as seen when the first wave washes over Earth in endings with good EMS.

The game gives us plenty of information, we just have to use our eyes. Of course there will still be people who hang on to 'but the codex said that one time'. 

I think this is possible, but it needs to be expanded.  The whole Arrival DLC establishes destruction of mass relays causes a supernova like effect.  We are given no indication otherwise except a 10 seconds visual open to interpretation at the end.

It can easily be expanded upon with two lines of dialogue, maybe less. But if I can reach that conclusion while watching the ending, I don't personally feel like I need the game to tell me what happened when I see it with my own eyes. It's certainly not worth all these debates over if the so called 'plot hole' can be filled with a minor explanation.

Modifié par Hudathan, 04 avril 2012 - 04:53 .

[sp0ck 06]

Xenbus wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

That's definitely a possibility which Bioware I think imagined us making that leap of logic. But we're not given enough information to tell. Obviously the explosions on the galaxy map are fictitious; you can't create an explosion that expands that visibly fast within a few seconds. The max speed the explosion can travel is the speed of light.

You ssay this but joker moving at FTL speeds still got caught by the explosion, so ya........ that doesn't hold water either.

They violated all their own rules at the end, so anything can happen. We went from sci-fi to pure fantasy in the last 10 minutes.

And the codex states an release of energy when a relay is destroyed will make a supernova type explosion, because the energy is contained, and when containment fails it releases it energy (IE. it explodes)

Basically think of it like a nuclear reactor melting down, rather then a nuclear warhead being detonated, the energy is running and active and contained, not in a stable solid form and inert.

But isn't the Crucible causing that energy to "push" throughout the galaxy to the next relay, and so on?  Rather than, in Arrival, all the energy being released into the local system, causing a huge explosion?

The Crucible must be using the energy contained within the Relays to accomplish the destruction, control, or synthesis.

Although I still cannot comprehend if you choose Control, why the relays must be destroyed.  It must be because the Crucible needs the expend the energy of the relays to facilitate the "control" whatever that is.

[Creston918]

Xandurpein wrote...

It's certainly possible that the relays somehow released the energy in a non-supernovalike explosion. It's Science-Fiction after all. But it's very bad narrative to first plant the notion that destroying a Mass relay is an event that shatters a whole star system and then blow up all mass relays without even touching on the subject if the same happens then or not. As with most complaints about the ending it's simply very bad narrative.

Hey! It's Artistic License! When Bioware calls their own work Art, you are no longer allowed to criticize it!

[MaleQuariansFTW]

Read Desperate Measures in the Secondary Codex.

[fiendling]

BobbyDylan wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
Why is it assumed the Relays destroyed everything??

Because the game tells us it will. In Arrival and in the Codex. Why do you assume the Reapers are killing everyone and not just thowing a fancy dress party?

Absolutely brilliant response!

[Vhalkyrie]

Hudathan wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The destructive force of a relay comes from the massive energy core. In 'Arrival' you can clearly see that the energy became disturbed after its physical container was already destroyed, causing the energy to go out of control and then explode AFTER the relay was broken. In the ending to ME3, the relay charges up instead and releases all the energy in the form of the beam BEFORE breaking up, causing a completely different type of explosion instead. The beam itself then becomes whatever color energy needed for the control/synthesis/destroy, none of which is physically destructive as seen when the first wave washes over Earth in endings with good EMS.

The game gives us plenty of information, we just have to use our eyes. Of course there will still be people who hang on to 'but the codex said that one time'. 

I think this is possible, but it needs to be expanded.  The whole Arrival DLC establishes destruction of mass relays causes a supernova like effect.  We are given no indication otherwise except a 10 seconds visual open to interpretation at the end.

It can easily be expanded upon with two lines of dialogue, maybe less. But if I can reach that conclusion while watching the ending, I don't personally feel like I need the game to tell me what happened when I see it with my own eyes. It's certainly not worth all these debates over if the so called 'plot hole' can be filled with a minor explanation.

I disagree.  Arrival establishes the fact in about a 5 hour DLC.  If it can be explained in two lines of dialogue, then do it since it's so trivial.

[Argraharg]

Obviously at least one solar system with a mass relay didn't get destroyed by the destruction of all mass relays: the solar system with the planet where the Normandy crashed. They had to use a mass relay in that system to arrive there. Said mass relay would then be destroyed without realy harming the jungle planet. Unless of course they just left the mass relay system and used regular FTL to travel to a nearby system without one of those lethal mass relays.

And besides it would be a rather silly ending if Shepard saved the galaxy from the Reapers by nuking everything.

[iorveth1271]

It has nothing to do with the impact explosion of the asteroid but it is caused by releasing the massive amount of energy from its core. Any ruptured mass relay will explode and the released energy will most likely always result in the total annihilation of every planet in its solar system.

Also explained in the codex btw.

[Menalaos1971]

Bioware made The Arrival so we could see the impact of a Mass Relay being destroyed. Nothing in ME3 definitively tells us that the Catalyst/Crucible changed this in any way. Since The Ending absolutely failed to actually explain anything that happened, I suppose you can assume whatever you want to assume, but in the end The Arrival is definitive and assumptions aren't.

Modifié par Menalaos1971, 04 avril 2012 - 05:01 .

[SeanThen1]

Remember people, even if the Relay didn't blow up Earth, all those stray rounds from the battle likely took a massive toll. It was spelled out multiple times how a planet can be destroyed from orbit and how combat with a planet behind your target = BAD. Now multiply that by the largest space battle in the Cycle's history, with half of the ships aiming towards Earth.

Bye Bye planet.

[sp0ck 06]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Read Desperate Measures in the Secondary Codex.

Right, but isn't it reasonable to assume the Crucible is not simply blowing up the relays, but using the energy contained within them to both Destroy/Synthisze/Control and spread the effect throughout the relay system?

[Nobrandminda]

BurtieBee wrote...

We weren't given any information to tell us otherwise. The only information we do have says relays destroyed=supernova.

I think it's clear we're supposed to assume this isn't the case, given the fact that Joker and crew (and the planet they landed on) weren't vaporized by the blast.

But still.. bad show, Bioware.

Pretty much this.

Obviously we're supposed to assume that that didn't happen since it would make the ending downright nihilistic and fatalistic.  Life is without meaning, and inevitably leads to destruction, buy DLC for more adventures with Commander Shepard!

Clearly, that's now what they were going for, but without any contradictory information, that's what we got.

[Fixers0]

Because you know, that happens when relay's are destroyed.

[Talogrungi]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Read Desperate Measures in the Secondary Codex.

Right, but isn't it reasonable to assume the Crucible is not simply blowing up the relays, but using the energy contained within them to both Destroy/Synthisze/Control and spread the effect throughout the relay system?

It's reasonable to suggest it on the basis that you're not told otherwise.
It's also reasonable to suggest that the relays are blowing up on the basis that you're also not told otherwise.

That's the problem; there's no clarification.

[Snoozems7]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

 The Relay in Arrival was destroyed by smashing a freaking asteroid into it, creating a supernova-like explosion that annihilated the system.  At the end of ME3, the Relays are presumably destroyed by the energy surge released by the Crucible.  

So why does everyone assume the same reaction would occur?  It seems plausible that the Relays being destroyed by the Crucible would not necessarily have the same effect as smashing a giant asteroid traveling at tremendous speed.

I'm not a nuclear physicist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you "destroy" a brick of plutonium by burning or melting it, as opposed to squirting tritium and blasting it with a projectile to create a nuclear detonation?

You would think the energies that would be required to see light brighter than all in the galaxy from the view from darkspace it gives you at the end would be tantamount to final annihilation of the systems the mass relays were in at the least.

My knowledge of physics is limited as well (I'm a pure math kind of guy), but surely with that amount of energy...

If you dismiss Indoc or anything that purports the final game sequences to be nothing more than a dream, it obviously doesn't happen. None of the planets in the last sequences would exist.

Modifié par Snoozems7, 04 avril 2012 - 05:07 .

[Pappi]

Because of Arrival?

[Nobrandminda]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Read Desperate Measures in the Secondary Codex.

Right, but isn't it reasonable to assume the Crucible is not simply blowing up the relays, but using the energy contained within them to both Destroy/Synthisze/Control and spread the effect throughout the relay system?

Oh sure, it's a fair assumption given the tone of the series, but it's also a baseless one.

It's never actually explained (even in the Codex) what the Crusible does or how it works, so you can assume anything you want, that doesn't mean it's true.

What is true is that a Mass Relay explodes with the force of a supernova when destroyed, and there is no reason given to assume that it makes any differeence how the Relay is destroyed.

[Menalaos1971]

For me that only thing that justifies Joker and team fleeing the Sol system at FTL speed (using Normandy's own engines) is that the Mass Relay explosion = BAD. Otherwise they have no excuse to flee.

So either there's two giant plot holes, or one explains the other.

[BaNkRuPt 24 7]

One must remember that the relay's pass on the destruction signal or whatever it is to on another, which would require energy. It's entirely possible that the energy that would be released from the destruction of the relay's are passed onto the next relay, burned up passing the signal. That would result in the last relay having the largest power surge, but the entire galaxy isn't known and there is further space than we know about. So we wouldn't know where got hit by the energy.

[Kartre]

I'll accept that this could be a "different kind" of explosion. What is so awful and hard to accept is that Shepard (and the player, on their first playthrough) has no way of knowing this. He, and we by extension, are presented with no choice but to proceed with destroying the relays which, for all we know, will wipe out every star system harboring them. All three choices he has, from the information he has at hand, are the most evil of renegade options, and the only paragon option is to stand still and let the Crucible be destroyed. If my only experience with lighting a campfire resulted in a grove of trees burning down, I wouldn't light my second one in a national forest without having some assurance that I'd be getting a different result, one that wouldn't annihilate me and every living thing for miles around.

[Hudathan]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The destructive force of a relay comes from the massive energy core. In 'Arrival' you can clearly see that the energy became disturbed after its physical container was already destroyed, causing the energy to go out of control and then explode AFTER the relay was broken. In the ending to ME3, the relay charges up instead and releases all the energy in the form of the beam BEFORE breaking up, causing a completely different type of explosion instead. The beam itself then becomes whatever color energy needed for the control/synthesis/destroy, none of which is physically destructive as seen when the first wave washes over Earth in endings with good EMS.

The game gives us plenty of information, we just have to use our eyes. Of course there will still be people who hang on to 'but the codex said that one time'. 

I think this is possible, but it needs to be expanded.  The whole Arrival DLC establishes destruction of mass relays causes a supernova like effect.  We are given no indication otherwise except a 10 seconds visual open to interpretation at the end.

It can easily be expanded upon with two lines of dialogue, maybe less. But if I can reach that conclusion while watching the ending, I don't personally feel like I need the game to tell me what happened when I see it with my own eyes. It's certainly not worth all these debates over if the so called 'plot hole' can be filled with a minor explanation.

I disagree.  Arrival establishes the fact in about a 5 hour DLC.  If it can be explained in two lines of dialogue, then do it since it's so trivial.

They'll probably do it as a part of the so called content initiative. Imagine the dialogue be changed to 'doing so will require converting all of the energy in each mass relay'. If people still argue over it after that, then they might as well be arguing that a nuclear missile still causes a nuclear explosion after you remove the nuclear material.

Modifié par Hudathan, 04 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[sp0ck 06]

Talogrungi wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Read Desperate Measures in the Secondary Codex.

Right, but isn't it reasonable to assume the Crucible is not simply blowing up the relays, but using the energy contained within them to both Destroy/Synthisze/Control and spread the effect throughout the relay system?

It's reasonable to suggest it on the basis that you're not told otherwise.
It's also reasonable to suggest that the relays are blowing up on the basis that you're also not told otherwise.

That's the problem; there's no clarification.

Yep.  Thats what I want, is clarification.  It seems obvious to me the relays did NOT destroy everything.  What I can't understand is why this was not made clear.  Literally would take two lines.

Cataylst:  The relays will be destroyed.
Shepard:  Won't that destroy everything in every system with a relay?
Catalyst:  No.  The Crucible requires the energy contained within the relays to fulfill its function.  This energy will be translated from relay to relay, rather than into the local solar systems.

Seriously.  Why Bioware?

[Gill Kaiser]

When will people understand that it doesn't even matter if the relay explosions were destructive or not? The very fact that the relay network is gone means the majority of galactic civilisation is doomed.

[WarpedAcorn]

Wasn't there mention of a relay being destroyed before the Arrival events? I think it might have been in ME1, but I could be wrong. I think the Relay got sucked into a collapsing star and wiped out that system.

[Vhalkyrie]

Snoozems7 wrote...

You would think the energies that would be required to see light brighter than all in the galaxy from the view from darkspace it gives you at the end would be tantamount to final annihilation of the systems the mass relays were in at the least.

My knowledge of physics is limited as well (I'm a pure math kind of guy), but surely with that amount of energy...

If you dismiss Indoc or anything that purports the final game sequences to be nothing more than a dream, it obviously doesn't happen. None of the planets in the last sequences would exist.

That much visible light viewable from the galaxy map means a tremendous amount of energy was released.  Something very, very bad happened.  A supernova's light grows more intense the bigger it gets.  It's possible they just used this as Hollywood dramatic effect, but a bright flash like that leads the viewer to interpret explosion.  If this wasn't what they intended to imply, they should not have added it because it looks more cool and dramatic.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 04 avril 2012 - 05:13 .