98 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariq]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

I feel that the ending where Shepard wakes up in all the rubble and the "Stargazer" are both definitive conclusions to the point that the blast from the relays did NOT destroy everything. Without question.

Not really. Not everyone sees the breath ending, and there is neither clarity nor consensus over what it means. The last gasp of a dying hero, possibly minutes before the light speed shockwave from the Charon Relay engulfs earth in a firestorm? Waking up from Indoctrination? Speculation upon speculation. The Stargazer scene is even less informative. We know it isn't earth (2 moons). We don't know *where* it is. Joker's Planet of Mad Cap Escape? An unmentioned human colony on the edge of the Terminus Systems? Who knows. It isn't answered.

[KarlPilks]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

 The Relay in Arrival was destroyed by smashing a freaking asteroid into it, creating a supernova-like explosion that annihilated the system.  At the end of ME3, the Relays are presumably destroyed by the energy surge released by the Crucible.  

So why does everyone assume the same reaction would occur?  It seems plausible that the Relays being destroyed by the Crucible would not necessarily have the same effect as smashing a giant asteroid traveling at tremendous speed.

I'm not a nuclear physicist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you "destroy" a brick of plutonium by burning or melting it, as opposed to squirting tritium and blasting it with a projectile to create a nuclear detonation?

It's assumed because that's what happened in Arrival DLC, the fact that star kid told us they'd be destroyed, and that BIOWARE HASN'T COME OUT AND EXPLAINED, EXPANDED ON OR TOLD US A DARN THING ABOUT THE ENDING.  So yeah, we just have to all assume/speculate/debate/rage/guess over what may have happened.  Sweet.

[Hudathan]

fiendling wrote...

TheCrakFox wrote...

Way I see it they're just breaking, not exploding. The energy being released is sent to the next relay.

Makes the endings a little less bleak and destructive, doesn't exactly get rid of the plot holes or fix any of the many, many other things wrong with it though. *sigh*

Did you miss the entire galaxy view of the chain reaction with each mass relay's destruction clearly visible from hundreds, if not thousands, of light years away? To put it in perspective, the Milky Way (our galaxy) is at least 100,000 light years in diameter. Do you have any idea of the amount of energy required to produce the size of the explosions you see from the vantage point it is shown? It is supernova level at the minimum.

Let's see, in the Control ending a blue energy covers Earth and everyone's fine, zoom out and blue energy expands through out the galaxy.

In the Synthesis ending a green energy covers Earth and everyone's fine, zoom out and green energy expands through out the galaxy.

In the Destroy ending a red energy covers Earth and everyone's fine, zoom out and red energy expands through out the galaxy.

You're right, it's a big amount of energy, but it's also a big amount of energy that doesn't destroy anything if you use your eyes.

[Anwarddyn]

 I totally agree that it seems plausible that they were a different circumstance so the explosions could have a different effect/size. 

However, the fact that a player has to make a leap of logic to come to this reeks of incomplete storytelling. Just my opinion.

Modifié par Anwarddyn, 04 avril 2012 - 06:40 .

[Gerudan]

goose2989 wrote...

Also to note: if the explosions weren't supposed to be damaging, why would the Normandy crash at all?

Because bad writing happens. 

[fiendling]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

fiendling wrote...

TheCrakFox wrote...

Way I see it they're just breaking, not exploding. The energy being released is sent to the next relay.

Makes the endings a little less bleak and destructive, doesn't exactly get rid of the plot holes or fix any of the many, many other things wrong with it though. *sigh*

Did you miss the entire galaxy view of the chain reaction with each mass relay's destruction clearly visible from hundreds, if not thousands, of light years away? To put it in perspective, the Milky Way (our galaxy) is at least 100,000 light years in diameter. Do you have any idea of the amount of energy required to produce the size of the explosions you see from the vantage point it is shown? It is supernova level at the minimum.

That seemed to be more of a cool graphical effect showing the spread of the Crucible's energy than an actual view of the entire galaxy exploding...

You misunderstood, I didn't say that the entire galaxy exploded, I said "...entire galaxy view of the chain reaction...". I was trying to put the size of the explosions, in relation to the size of our galaxy, in perspective.

[K1llm1n1on]

Anwarddyn wrote...

 I totally agree that it seems plausible that they were a different circumstance so the explosions could have a different effect/size. 

However, the fact that a player has to make a leap of logic to come to this reeks of incomplete storytelling. Just my opinion.

Obfuscation and ambiguity are established storytelling techniques, so I can't get behind that idea.
The different effects of the explosions is the case, though, if you actually go through the endings.

[Dresden867]

One of the things that drives me nuts about the "relays must have destroyed everyone" interpretation is: Shep visibly survives in the Destroy Ending.

It is not simultaneously possible for these to both be true!

[fiendling]

Hudathan wrote...

fiendling wrote...

TheCrakFox wrote...

Way I see it they're just breaking, not exploding. The energy being released is sent to the next relay.

Makes the endings a little less bleak and destructive, doesn't exactly get rid of the plot holes or fix any of the many, many other things wrong with it though. *sigh*

Did you miss the entire galaxy view of the chain reaction with each mass relay's destruction clearly visible from hundreds, if not thousands, of light years away? To put it in perspective, the Milky Way (our galaxy) is at least 100,000 light years in diameter. Do you have any idea of the amount of energy required to produce the size of the explosions you see from the vantage point it is shown? It is supernova level at the minimum.

Let's see, in the Control ending a blue energy covers Earth and everyone's fine, zoom out and blue energy expands through out the galaxy.

In the Synthesis ending a green energy covers Earth and everyone's fine, zoom out and green energy expands through out the galaxy.

In the Destroy ending a red energy covers Earth and everyone's fine, zoom out and red energy expands through out the galaxy.

You're right, it's a big amount of energy, but it's also a big amount of energy that doesn't destroy anything if you use your eyes.

Interesting hypothesis but with one big flaw: Visible light is just a small part of the energy released in an explosion and unfortunately with this amount of visible light, you are talking huge amounts of, almost certainly, harmful energy.

It would at the very least excite (energize) all the molecules in our atmosphere to escape velocities, effectively stripping away our atmosphere and as a result - kill all life on Earth.

[moater boat]

Here's the thing, regardless of what we know or don't know, as far as SHEPARD knows, blowing up a mass relay=genocide. Shepard had no reason to assume that the explosions would be any different, and even if they may have been different, it is not something he would actually know, he would just be speculating. To assume that Shep would blow up all the relays without getting any sort of clarification is just dumb.

[Sc2mashimaro]

"Assumed" is the wrong word. The endings IMPLY that mass genocide and destruction has occured based on the player's previous knowledge and the narrative's lore. We don't know, but it is the conclusion the story evidence points to.

[Creston918]

TheCrakFox wrote...

Way I see it they're just breaking, not exploding. The energy being released is sent to the next relay.

Makes the endings a little less bleak and destructive, doesn't exactly get rid of the plot holes or fix any of the many, many other things wrong with it though. *sigh*

And what happens when all that energy reaches the final relay? It just goes on vacation or something?

No... it explodes, with the force of several hundres, or thousands, of super novas. Which releases enough radiation to sterilize probably a quarter of the galaxy of all life.

So yeah, that's much better.

[AllegedVixEo]

goose2989 wrote...

BurtieBee wrote...

We weren't given any information to tell us otherwise. The only information we do have says relays destroyed=supernova.

I think it's clear we're supposed to assume this isn't the case, given the fact that Joker and crew (and the planet they landed on) weren't vaporized by the blast.

But still.. bad show, Bioware.

Also to note: if the explosions weren't supposed to be damaging, why would the Normandy crash at all?

I think it should be noted that the Normandy wasn't eviscerated by a blast from the relays, moreso it was sucked into some kind of space hole and tossed out on the other side.  When a star dies it creates a black hole, but a black hole is not necessarily powerful enough to take out a whole solar system (depending on various factors).  The implication being that the blast, while not damaging in and of itself, caused some sort of reaction in space that created a vaccuum that was powerful enough to engulf and spit out the Normandy, but not an entire solar system, like a wormhole.  If that's the case, we could be looking at Normandy time travel scenarios

[Admiral H. Cain]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

 The Relay in Arrival was destroyed by smashing a freaking asteroid into it, creating a supernova-like explosion that annihilated the system.  At the end of ME3, the Relays are presumably destroyed by the energy surge released by the Crucible.  

So why does everyone assume the same reaction would occur?  It seems plausible that the Relays being destroyed by the Crucible would not necessarily have the same effect as smashing a giant asteroid traveling at tremendous speed.

I'm not a nuclear physicist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you "destroy" a brick of plutonium by burning or melting it, as opposed to squirting tritium and blasting it with a projectile to create a nuclear detonation?

Why do we "assume" this? Because it says so in the freaking Codex: 

"The consequences of destroying a mass relay are immense: as a huge mass
effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could
produce an explosion of supernova proportions. This proves true when
during Arrival, a large asteroid is purposely steered into the Bahak system's Alpha Relay.
The resulting impact tears apart the relay, causing an explosion which
annihilates the Bahak system and kills its more than 300,000
inhabitants."

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Mass_Relay

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 04 avril 2012 - 07:10 .

[Patson259]

The relay blast was what I figured Joker was running from, if not what else could it of been.

[Admiral H. Cain]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

goose2989 wrote...

BurtieBee wrote...

We weren't given any information to tell us otherwise. The only information we do have says relays destroyed=supernova.

I think it's clear we're supposed to assume this isn't the case, given the fact that Joker and crew (and the planet they landed on) weren't vaporized by the blast.

But still.. bad show, Bioware.

Also to note: if the explosions weren't supposed to be damaging, why would the Normandy crash at all?

I think it should be noted that the Normandy wasn't eviscerated by a blast from the relays, moreso it was sucked into some kind of space hole and tossed out on the other side.  When a star dies it creates a black hole, but a black hole is not necessarily powerful enough to take out a whole solar system (depending on various factors).  The implication being that the blast, while not damaging in and of itself, caused some sort of reaction in space that created a vaccuum that was powerful enough to engulf and spit out the Normandy, but not an entire solar system, like a wormhole.  If that's the case, we could be looking at Normandy time travel scenarios

It was partially destroyed by your "space hole" which was part of the Crucible energy.

The black hole created by a supernova is located at the central point of the explosion, not millions of miles away.

Time travel has been proven impossible. http://news.discover...ton-110724.html

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 04 avril 2012 - 07:14 .

[AllegedVixEo]

Ariq wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

I feel that the ending where Shepard wakes up in all the rubble and the "Stargazer" are both definitive conclusions to the point that the blast from the relays did NOT destroy everything. Without question.

Not really. Not everyone sees the breath ending, and there is neither clarity nor consensus over what it means. The last gasp of a dying hero, possibly minutes before the light speed shockwave from the Charon Relay engulfs earth in a firestorm? Waking up from Indoctrination? Speculation upon speculation. The Stargazer scene is even less informative. We know it isn't earth (2 moons). We don't know *where* it is. Joker's Planet of Mad Cap Escape? An unmentioned human colony on the edge of the Terminus Systems? Who knows. It isn't answered.

True enough that the "breath" is unclear and can be debunked, however to me it seems an indication that Shepard survived the blast (taking the scene at face value, without the implications of indoctrination).  It is considered the "perfect" ending, so that breath is meant to be an uplifting final moment.  

Stargazer though, while vague, goes on to show that humanoid life in the galaxy did not cease. 

[Promchek]

to OP, you see relays exploding, right? They do really explode, after that they create a shock waves crossing thousands of light years in matter of seconds, you do realize what level of energy those waves must have to be able to do so? And now tell me they are harmless?

[boardnfool86]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

 The Relay in Arrival was destroyed by smashing a freaking asteroid into it, creating a supernova-like explosion that annihilated the system.  At the end of ME3, the Relays are presumably destroyed by the energy surge released by the Crucible.  

So why does everyone assume the same reaction would occur?  It seems plausible that the Relays being destroyed by the Crucible would not necessarily have the same effect as smashing a giant asteroid traveling at tremendous speed.

I'm not a nuclear physicist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you "destroy" a brick of plutonium by burning or melting it, as opposed to squirting tritium and blasting it with a projectile to create a nuclear detonation?

Because people don't want them destroyed so they've thought up a plausible scenario making their destruction an implausible direction for BioWare to go, when in fact empircal evidence coupled with the rather obvious logic you have applied would prove the "everything by destroying the relays" wrong on that account.

As for the lack of intergalactic commerce dooming the survivors - also false. There are no Mass relays in real life and Earth is just fine. Its also stated in game that rural areas are left relatively untouched still. But again, people don't WANT the ending to add up with hopes that they make a more emotinoally satisfying ending. In terms of logic, the end of ME3 is no more flawed then the rest of the series as a whole.

Of course I've changed nobody's mind - but hopefully clarified this for you OP

[AllegedVixEo]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

goose2989 wrote...

BurtieBee wrote...

We weren't given any information to tell us otherwise. The only information we do have says relays destroyed=supernova.

I think it's clear we're supposed to assume this isn't the case, given the fact that Joker and crew (and the planet they landed on) weren't vaporized by the blast.

But still.. bad show, Bioware.

Also to note: if the explosions weren't supposed to be damaging, why would the Normandy crash at all?

I think it should be noted that the Normandy wasn't eviscerated by a blast from the relays, moreso it was sucked into some kind of space hole and tossed out on the other side.  When a star dies it creates a black hole, but a black hole is not necessarily powerful enough to take out a whole solar system (depending on various factors).  The implication being that the blast, while not damaging in and of itself, caused some sort of reaction in space that created a vaccuum that was powerful enough to engulf and spit out the Normandy, but not an entire solar system, like a wormhole.  If that's the case, we could be looking at Normandy time travel scenarios

It was partially destroyed by your "space hole" which was part of the Crucible energy.

The black hole created by a supernova is located at the central point of the explosion, not millions of miles away.

Time travel has been proven impossible. http://news.discover...ton-110724.html

Partially destroyed is acceptable.  A vacuum of that velocity would be somewhat destructive.  I am just making a distinction between the reaction that caused what happened to the Normandy and the energy released in the blast.  

The black hole was just an example.  That's why I referred to the Normandy phenomenon as some kind of "space hole" or "worm hole" because it's clearly not a black hole created by a star's death.  The point I am making is that reactions happen in space as a result of the release of energy.  Some reaction occurred at the hands of the relays releasing their energy, caused Normandy to crash but didn't burn it up into Joker dust.

Thank you for the article, Stephen Hawking.  I will have to check it out.  But you are missing the beautiful part, that anything is possible in fiction.  Time travel included.  Although I do not believe that Joker and the crew will be running around with Dinosaurs any time soon, I was just being facetious.

[ardisian]

boardnfool86 wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

 The Relay in Arrival was destroyed by smashing a freaking asteroid into it, creating a supernova-like explosion that annihilated the system.  At the end of ME3, the Relays are presumably destroyed by the energy surge released by the Crucible.  

So why does everyone assume the same reaction would occur?  It seems plausible that the Relays being destroyed by the Crucible would not necessarily have the same effect as smashing a giant asteroid traveling at tremendous speed.

I'm not a nuclear physicist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you "destroy" a brick of plutonium by burning or melting it, as opposed to squirting tritium and blasting it with a projectile to create a nuclear detonation?

Because people don't want them destroyed so they've thought up a plausible scenario making their destruction an implausible direction for BioWare to go, when in fact empircal evidence coupled with the rather obvious logic you have applied would prove the "everything by destroying the relays" wrong on that account.

As for the lack of intergalactic commerce dooming the survivors - also false. There are no Mass relays in real life and Earth is just fine. Its also stated in game that rural areas are left relatively untouched still. But again, people don't WANT the ending to add up with hopes that they make a more emotinoally satisfying ending. In terms of logic, the end of ME3 is no more flawed then the rest of the series as a whole.

Of course I've changed nobody's mind - but hopefully clarified this for you OP

There are no Mass relays in real life and earth is just fine???  Earth is not thousands of light years in diameter.  If all modern fuel/enery for travel just ceased to exist (no electicity, no oil, etc) then the modern global economy would colapse and most areas would be on the brink of starvation within days.  Destroying the mass relays does this to the galaxy. 

[Ariq]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Stargazer though, while vague, goes on to show that humanoid life in the galaxy did not cease. 

That's never been under dispute. The claim is that Relays destroy the systems they are in, not every neighboring system. There are colony worlds in systems with no Relays, they would be just fine. For example, whatever world the Normandy crashes on, whether that is the Alpha Centauri colony or not.

[Enhanced]

There's a short scene that shows Shepard breathing in the one of the destroy endings. So obviously the controlled destruction of the relays doesn't create supernova types of explosions that would wipe out their whole systems.

Modifié par Enhanced, 04 avril 2012 - 11:21 .