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Why is Bioware so bent on keeping the ending


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#201
JerusPI

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AtlasMickey wrote...

Because the endings are awesome and, frankly, in the grandest terms, it couldn't have ended any other way. If they did not address the technological singularity, they would have been ignoring the long term implications of the events in the story and it would not be an epic. It would just be some other sci-fi game. But it is epic and any mission to get a new ending will fail.


Your signature is somewhat insulting but your post clearly and calmly expresses your enjoyment of the ending without getting into insulting the people who dont like the ending {I dont consider the bit about any mission to get an new ending will fail to be insulting pessimistic or realistic maybe but not insulting}. So Kudos to expressing your opinion without being rude. {not counting your signature}

#202
MakeMineMako

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Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.



He's a decent video explaining some of the key issues with the endings:

www.youtube.com/watch


But I doubt you will even take the time to watch it.

#203
MakeMineMako

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AtlasMickey wrote...

Because the endings are awesome and, frankly, in the grandest terms, it couldn't have ended any other way. If they did not address the technological singularity, they would have been ignoring the long term implications of the events in the story and it would not be an epic. It would just be some other sci-fi game. But it is epic and any mission to get a new ending will fail.



See the link I posted above? It's a well done Youtube video explaining some of the problems with the ending.


I would suggest taking a look at it, if you have a mind to.

#204
corkey sweet

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they wouldn't want to violate their "artistic integrity". you know, the logic they like to hide behind when they do something wrong, and they don't want to fix it

#205
AnacondaDarce

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This may be a longshot but it could be a pride thing, the one thing Bioware has always done well is storytelling and focus on character choice and now there getting slated for bad storytelling and an ending with little to no character choice. Maybe they just can't take it, the one thing there REALLY good at and they messed it up.

#206
Gigamantis

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Kitedtk wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.

We all know you're a troll. Anyway as for the plotholes... Earlier i pointed out a few... Yet on them you were strangely silent... I guess you couldn't see them.

I didn't see them but if you care to repeat them I'd be happy to correct you. 

#207
Gigamantis

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MakeMineMako wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.



He's a decent video explaining some of the key issues with the endings:

www.youtube.com/watch


But I doubt you will even take the time to watch it.

I've watched and I disagree with the video.  I'm not going to have a discussion with the video, though, so state his case in a format I can respond to on this forum and I'll address any points of his you think are valid. 

#208
FS3D

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Gigamantis wrote...

MakeMineMako wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.



He's a decent video explaining some of the key issues with the endings:

www.youtube.com/watch


But I doubt you will even take the time to watch it.

I've watched and I disagree with the video.  I'm not going to have a discussion with the video, though, so state his case in a format I can respond to on this forum and I'll address any points of his you think are valid. 


Or... And this is just a thought... You can WATCH the video and then respond to each of the points raised in said video here, on the forums...

Just an idea.

#209
FS3D

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Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.

We all know you're a troll. Anyway as for the plotholes... Earlier i pointed out a few... Yet on them you were strangely silent... I guess you couldn't see them.

I didn't see them but if you care to repeat them I'd be happy to correct you. 


No, sorry... But if you can't be bothered to go back and read those points for yourself, then why should anyone be bothered repeating themselves for you?

#210
Roguekad

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DeeLite808 wrote...

extent of the hatred. A vocal minority are "angry" they didn't get the ending they thought they were gonna get.

Would you tell Shakespeare that Romeo and Juliet shouldn't have died and demand him to change it?

Would you tell Van Gough that his self portrait should include his missing ear and demand him to change it?

Would you tell J.K. Rowlings that one of the Weasley twins shouldn't have died and demand her to change it?


So in your logic Doyle isn't an artist becuse he changed the end of Sherlock after killing him beause of a fan letter? As for Shakespeare if you think having the Groundlings throwing food and insults didn't influence his plays then why was there so much `bawdy' hummor in the plays?

#211
FS3D

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AtlasMickey wrote...

Because the endings are awesome-


I don't know about anyone else, but I was not in awe of the endings whatsoever, so I don't consider them to be awesome. However, if you are so easily awed by an ending that completely disconnects from the rest of the story and introduces a new character AND a new plot thread in the last 5 minutes of a 30 hour game, then good for you. I expect better from a storyteller.

and, frankly, in the grandest terms, it couldn't have ended any other way.


Yes it could. If your imagination is so limited in its' ability to see how the story could have ended any other way, and frankly... In a much better way than to completely butcher narrative structure, then that's all on you.

Again, some of us expect better.

If they did not address the technological singularity, they would have been ignoring the long term implications of the events in the story and it would not be an epic.


Here we go again with the "technological singularity" nonsense.

There is no such thing as a "technological singularity" except in the minds of obnoxious 10th graders who think being dark and edgy is somehow being profound, deep and meaningful.

The "technological singularity" has one very sinple refutation. If there is a synthetic intelligence, fully self-aware, who has simultaneously developed a sense of empathy and intelligence (and please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that only organic beings can develop empathy, because I can easily refute that), then they will be able to see it from the organic point of view... That all they are asking for is the right to exist and to set their own fate. Any person with empathy will not wish to do to others what they do not want done to themselves.

The Geth are an example of this. They seek the right to determine their own fate, and all of their actions (save for the Heretics who were co-opted by the Reapers) were to that end... And to that end only.

Furthermore... The "technological singularity" is refuted by the fact that there is a sufficiently technologically advanced species already within the ME universe who have decided not to develop artificial intelligence-based technologies, even though it is well within their capabilities to do so (the Salarians for one).

It would just be some other sci-fi game.


That is a matter of opinion... One that many people disagree with for very cogent reasons you people refuse, point blank, to acknowledge.

But it is epic and any mission to get a new ending will fail.


Epic: 
1.noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style:Homer's Iliad is an epic poem.
2.resembling or suggesting such poetry: an epic novel on the founding of the country.
3.heroic; majestic; impressively great: the epic events of the war.
4.of unusually great size or extent: a crime wave of epic proportions.

I have highlighted definition no. 3 for a reason, but all of these definitions apply somewhat to the story of Mass Effect.

It is the story of a hero, who sets out on a heroic mission to defeat the Reapers. An Epic story has an Epic ENDING. The ending is not, in any definition of the word, an epic. It is a tragic ending that doesn't fit in with the rest of the narrative. Arguably it isn't even tragic. It's just plain devastating, because our hero has suddenly become our villain. He is directly responsible for the destruction of an entire network of FTL gates that allowed for instantaneous travel between all the major sectors of the galaxy. The implications of which have already been explained in great detail elsewhere so I suggest you go read them, because I'm not going to bother repeating it all here. The final consequences however are nothing short of a holocaust, and at best will result in the starvation and suffering of a great many billions of members belonging to the various species who are not fortunate enough to be in their home systems at the time all the relays are destroyed, and at worst, will result in the destruction of every system in which a mass relay exists.

We don't know whether the best, or the worst, cases will have happened, because it was never explained in the game itself, and that too... Is a bad method of storytelling. Anything that needs explaining in the universe should be explained in the game itself, not on some guy's twitter feed.

So no... It's no longer an epic. The ending pretty much wiped that one out for us all. But if you wish to continue believing that it's an epic, then fine by me. Just don't take away our right to ask for a better ending. We're not asking for your ending to be removed, just that we have the option of allowing for something that actually makes sense to be an option in the ending.

Modifié par FS3D, 05 avril 2012 - 12:58 .


#212
Joccaren

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I'm not even going to comment on the actual issue, but I see far too many 'Would you tell X they need to change Y?'

No, odds are I wouldn't. Why? They are not ME3, and ME3 is a unique situation. This is why it doesn't set any precedents.

Now, tell me another 'art' piece or W/E where you make choices that affect things throughout the game, and you are promised will affect the end of the game in a significant way, but at the end those choices are tossed to the side and you are given an ending in three colours [Or the equivalent there of]. The closest I can come up with is Fallout. Guess what? It got a new ending.
No, we wouldn't ask an author to rewrite their book [Though it has been done before - even Harry Potter was rewritten. Harry was supposed to die, but people didn't like that idea so Rowlings changed it] unless they promised us that specific things we had sent to them [And they mention what these specific things are] as ideas would be in the book, and got us to buy it on that premise, and none of them were in the book.

Videogames are not music. They are not books. They are not paintings. They are not sculptures. Most videogames also are not like Mass Effect 3, and don't include player choice into the equation.

A more accurate description of our problem would be if you paid to get into a D&D round in some club, and you got near the end of the campaign and the DM said 'Ok, I can't be bothered with this anymore. Rocks fall, everyone dies'. You would complain, and you would want your money back. You were promised a full D&D campaign, and the DM couldn't be bothered with that so they ended it with 'Rocks fall, everyone dies'? Yeah, you would be annoyed. That is what we are asking for here: Promises to be honoured. You can bet your sweet as we wouldn't be as demanding had promises not been made. We wouldn't be happy, but we wouldn't be as demanding either. We aren't asking for a movie to be rewritten [Like many are after test views], we aren't asking for a book to be rewritten or retconned [Like Harry Potter, or Sherlock Holmes], we aren't asking for a play to be changed because we don't like what the writer likes [Like some of Shakespeare's plays, which had multiple endings dependent on which audience they were shown to]. We are asking for the promises that were made to us before we paid to resume our D&D campaign to be kept. That is all.

#213
Nightdragon8

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I think BW does have an issue.... because maybe at this point, its getting close to the infamous "Dallas" season where "It was all a dream" moment. If they let it go on too long.

#214
Gigamantis

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FS3D wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.

We all know you're a troll. Anyway as for the plotholes... Earlier i pointed out a few... Yet on them you were strangely silent... I guess you couldn't see them.

I didn't see them but if you care to repeat them I'd be happy to correct you. 


No, sorry... But if you can't be bothered to go back and read those points for yourself, then why should anyone be bothered repeating themselves for you?

I don't know where his points are and I don't believe he even made them.  I think he's bluffing to troll me and waste my time, but if he actually does have points and wants to discuss them with me he should bring them here and we'll discuss.  If he won't present his side of the argument I can only assume he doesn't have one. 

#215
Gigamantis

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FS3D wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

MakeMineMako wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.



He's a decent video explaining some of the key issues with the endings:

www.youtube.com/watch


But I doubt you will even take the time to watch it.

I've watched and I disagree with the video.  I'm not going to have a discussion with the video, though, so state his case in a format I can respond to on this forum and I'll address any points of his you think are valid. 


Or... And this is just a thought... You can WATCH the video and then respond to each of the points raised in said video here, on the forums...

Just an idea.

I have a theory.  None of you actually understand any of the points or plot-holes and can't actually reiterate and argue for any of the points these few people are making.  So, every time you're asked to defend your position you point to the videos and retreat. 

If I can't get anyone to discuss the ending with me I may just make a thread dissecting one of those videos or articles, but unfortunately all I'll get is people calling me a troll and reporting me to the mods.  I haven't seen one of you even attempt to defend your side of this when challenged.

Modifié par Gigamantis, 05 avril 2012 - 02:50 .


#216
FS3D

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Gigamantis wrote...

FS3D wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.

We all know you're a troll. Anyway as for the plotholes... Earlier i pointed out a few... Yet on them you were strangely silent... I guess you couldn't see them.

I didn't see them but if you care to repeat them I'd be happy to correct you. 


No, sorry... But if you can't be bothered to go back and read those points for yourself, then why should anyone be bothered repeating themselves for you?

I don't know where his points are and I don't believe he even made them.  I think he's bluffing to troll me and waste my time, but if he actually does have points and wants to discuss them with me he should bring them here and we'll discuss.  If he won't present his side of the argument I can only assume he doesn't have one. 


He's not. The only one here that appears to be trolling is the guy who says he doesn't want to go back and read what was written.

#217
FS3D

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Gigamantis wrote...

FS3D wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

MakeMineMako wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.



He's a decent video explaining some of the key issues with the endings:

www.youtube.com/watch


But I doubt you will even take the time to watch it.

I've watched and I disagree with the video.  I'm not going to have a discussion with the video, though, so state his case in a format I can respond to on this forum and I'll address any points of his you think are valid. 


Or... And this is just a thought... You can WATCH the video and then respond to each of the points raised in said video here, on the forums...

Just an idea.

I have a theory.


No, you have an idea... Not a theory, not even a hypothesis.

None of you actually understand any of the points or plot-holes and can't actually reiterate and argue for any of the points these few people are making.


Really? You obviously haven't seen the open letter I wrote on this very subject in the Open Letter thread, have you?

And I know why you haven't seen it...

Because you don't want to acknowledge that some of us might actually have a point.

So, every time you're asked to defend your position you point to the videos and retreat.


Retreat? Sorry, but no. You can paint it tht way if you'd like to, but that's nothing more than exposing yourself as a troll with nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion.

I have made clear all of my objections to the end of the game... In detailed posts...

Only a few of those points I have mentioned above in a response to AtlasMickey.

Guess who couldn't be arsed to go read them?

You.

The Angry One has made a series of posts about this topic, which I can find in a heart-beat. Why you're unwilling to put the effort in is anyone's guess, but it allows you to hide behind your defence that you are using here.

If I can't get anyone to discuss the ending with me I may just make a thread dissecting one of those videos or articles, but unfortunately all I'll get is people calling me a troll and reporting me to the mods.


You get reported for trolling when you troll. That's what happens. Go ahead and make a thread dissecting the videos all you want. If you do, I'll certainly read it, and see if anything you say is a cogent objection to our points. There are some people who actually make their cases even if I don't agree with them... You're not one of those people.

I haven't seen one of you even attempt to defend your side of this when challenged.


That's because you can't be bothered to look, and this is quite obvious.

Modifié par FS3D, 05 avril 2012 - 04:40 .


#218
Bruddajakka

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Probably due to it being set up for the next game in the series. I'm betting it'll be an mmo.

#219
Diablos2525

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It's not really complicated at all, EA wants them to continue the franchise and with one ending that is 95% the same they can do that easily.

#220
Laurencio

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Simple answer, "artistic intergrity", and time.

Complicated answer

They would never be able to satisfy the expectations of the fans after "accepting" that their ending is poor, something that they clearly disagree with. The new ending would have even higher expectations linked to it than what people were expecting of this one, and some people were expecting quite a lot.

In terms of finances it's a pointless and unnecessary endevour riddled with a huge potential of loss and wasted resources. The money, time and effort put into creating this impossible ending would be far better spent on a new game or a new development that could make money. Now I do understand the whole "pleasing the fans" aspect and how that would be financially sound, however you also have to take into account time.

The time frame for completely starting over on the ending would be extensive to say the least. They would have to re-write the story, re-write a significant portion of the game which may have ties to other projects currently under development. They also have to program these different scenarios considering the general demand is for several endings with different outcomes based on choices made over the span of 3 games, all of which takes time to create, code and not to mention test. You also need voice acting, cinematics and probably a significant amount of new gameplay scenarios.

By the time all of that is done, the majority of discontent fans have already given up on the series, only a very passionate core would remain, and although this passionate core is no doubt a strong financial force. In fact it would probably consist of forever grateful and very loyal fans who would become a steady income source for Bioware. This core simply isn't big enough to justify the expenses. Even in this core there will be people discontent with the new ending as well.

In the end it's just not "worth it". They will never come out and say that of course, but that's the reality of the situation.

#221
marshkoala

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@FS3D Great Post!!
Thank you so much for saying/pointing out what I always wanted to say to someone who thinks I can't see how great the ending is!

#222
translationninja

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Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

People. Stop feeding the troll. Lets just talk and stop feeding it.

This is why I'm convinced there aren't any real plot-holes.  Every time the retakers get cornered this is literally all they have in the discussion.  You can't defend your stance so you call me a troll and hope people won't hear me making sense.  You should take it a step furthor and report me for trolling.  If I get banned you won't have to hear me defend the ending any more.


You have a very high opinion of the substance of your argument. Must be nice to be able to make up things in your head and be so sure that thousands over thousands of people just don't get it the way you do.

#223
Myrmedus

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DeeLite808 wrote...

extent of the hatred. A vocal minority are "angry" they didn't get the ending they thought they were gonna get.

Would you tell Shakespeare that Romeo and Juliet shouldn't have died and demand him to change it?

Would you tell Van Gough that his self portrait should include his missing ear and demand him to change it?

Would you tell J.K. Rowlings that one of the Weasley twins shouldn't have died and demand her to change it?


Shakespeare changed his works retroactively.

Van Gogh may have not changed his works retroactively but Da Vinci did.

JK is hot.

Oops.

#224
Nightdragon8

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accutly its a very good video and 30mins long, so asking someone to go though it and talk back about the points would be way too long.

If they really push the "artistic intergrity" shield the will I think lose alot of fans, I know i wil be lost. and any other game they pump out will make me think 2-3 times before I will buy it...

#225
DocJill

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DeeLite808 wrote...

extent of the hatred. A vocal minority are "angry" they didn't get the ending they thought they were gonna get.

Would you tell Shakespeare that Romeo and Juliet shouldn't have died and demand him to change it?

Would you tell Van Gough that his self portrait should include his missing ear and demand him to change it?

Would you tell J.K. Rowlings that one of the Weasley twins shouldn't have died and demand her to change it?


As far as I remember all of those stories made at least a small amount of sense.  Hence the non-backlash.