306 réponses à ce sujet

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...
...
its good writing from a twist point of veiw otherwise its gay and has aidz

It is the only way, but to me it is still not wanted, i take part in the "we want more endings" sect of retakers, just add more options and stuff that reflect choices, twist is strange but idc very much about it but the starchild needs some edits. 

starchild is kinda weird 

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...
...
Not me never I just wanted to send the reapers to hell then retire on there with like 200 women

they should make that an option, we must have someone say it at pax.

get someone to it for me cause id even take these 

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

get someone to it for me cause id even take these 

We need a DRAGON PLANET.

make Tali a collector so the Talimancers will kill them selves

[Siegdrifa]

The retake movement can count on my wallet to support their new action.
Until then, let's not forget about fullparagon.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

make Tali a collector so the Talimancers will kill them selves

The forums would be empty,
I made dragon planet poll

I made the Tali poll lol

[CARL_DF90]

Hmm...a very well thought out group with very clear goals that is taken seriously and professionally. A very good and hopeful read. I'm eager to see what happens next.

[taelus.calimshan]

Alright, sorry to be absent so long, but apparently all I missed was a lot of Halo 4 discussion. Speaking of...can we move that elsewhere? Much appreciated.

To AJ's commentary (which I'm omitting because of length) about the development cycle and such that followed:

I understand that the Retake movement has absolutely altered their plans for DLC release. We know this is at least true of the new multiplayer character options that were leaked the first week the game was out. Also, it's true that BioWare is, to some extent, at the mercy of EA's decisions, but they still make most decisions internally. They don't have to check everything with EA for approval, though it's entirely possible that something as big as a recreation of the endings might have to be approved from a budget perspective.

All of that said, I don't think any of this speaks poorly of the Retake group. I think the issue of the movement's validity and it's effect are essentially orthogonal. The movement has the right to make demands of the creator of a product they've purchased, particularly when that product advertised one set of features and provided another. Again, I absolutely agree that some of the things happening DLC wise and in other areas for BioWare are a direct consequence of the Retake movement, but I don't agree that these effects make the actions of the Retake group "entitled".

I hope that makes more sense.

[John Epler]

TRISTAN, please stop derailing the thread. Thank you.

[Capone666]

John Epler wrote...

TRISTAN, please stop derailing the thread. Thank you.

Hey John,

Thank you so much sir. I thought this would be an interesting conversation but some forum members do not want let that happen

[Martin Baughman]

 I've been wondering of what we planning next for this movement. I hope we do plan on doing something good and constructive for not only supporting to receive a better ending for Mass Effect 3 but for contributing our cause and our message to the world in various ways which does seem like what our organizer seems intent on doing from what I read. I hope for those attending at PAX will create an impact on Bioware and I hope everything turns out the way our organizer expects it especially the utmost behavior of our fellow followers to be as civil as possible. I hope to hear great news from this group, of which I'm proud to be part of, from our appearance at PAX and that we get the answers we've been seeking for so long. 

Hold the line, my fellow followers!

Keelah Se'Lai

[UnstableMongoose]

Alright, I'm going to attempt to record straight: there is not some nebulous, shadowy organization of people who like the ending who sent hate mail to Child's Play--this is not a thing. Your donations were returned because enough of your supporters sent refund requests to the CP Paypal that it was in serious danger of being suspended.

Furthermore, you are not a charitable organization. You are an organization that exists to put economic pressure on a game company in order to change their policy. This is all well and good, and more power to you for doing so, but CP's 401©(3) status is threatened by taking donations of that nature--hence, your $80,000 were an extraordinary risk to take, because the source of the money threatened the future millions that CP has the potential to raise by making them an unwilling pawn in a corporate struggle.

Long story short, don't pretend the charity drive failed because of the Illuminati. It failed because you didn't get the details down--the interview at the beginning of this thread outlines this in very vague terms, but admits it nonetheless.

Reading the article, I see that the leadership of Retake has learned a lot of these lessons about planning ahead and making sure that the steps they take are going to land on solid ground. I'm happy for y'all, and I hope you do some good--I really think that Eric has this planned out in a way that should work this time if everyone follows the rules he has set out.

Just remember, the burden for this to turn out differently than Child's Play does not rest on some shadowy group of people who doesn't like you--it's all on you, for better or worse. Godspeed.

[AJRimmsey]

taelus.calimshan wrote...

Alright, sorry to be absent so long, but apparently all I missed was a lot of Halo 4 discussion. Speaking of...can we move that elsewhere? Much appreciated.

To AJ's commentary (which I'm omitting because of length) about the development cycle and such that followed:

I understand that the Retake movement has absolutely altered their plans for DLC release. We know this is at least true of the new multiplayer character options that were leaked the first week the game was out. Also, it's true that BioWare is, to some extent, at the mercy of EA's decisions, but they still make most decisions internally. They don't have to check everything with EA for approval, though it's entirely possible that something as big as a recreation of the endings might have to be approved from a budget perspective.

All of that said, I don't think any of this speaks poorly of the Retake group. I think the issue of the movement's validity and it's effect are essentially orthogonal. The movement has the right to make demands of the creator of a product they've purchased, particularly when that product advertised one set of features and provided another. Again, I absolutely agree that some of the things happening DLC wise and in other areas for BioWare are a direct consequence of the Retake movement, but I don't agree that these effects make the actions of the Retake group "entitled".

I hope that makes more sense.

Makes a lot of sense.

also good to converse here without it devolving into insults and stupidity.

the mistake maybe i have made was explained to me earlier on another site where i work with american modders and developers.
its the word "entitled",here its not taken as it is by a lot over the ocean on your side,as i am led to understand its an insult more than a description.

Though i still cant agree with the demands side,as someone who has spent many years with gaming and developers we do tend to see demands from an artistic side,its like a painter being told thier work isnt to a standard,which isnt our standard and therefore supposed to be at fault.

when i for instance create something its mine,the design is mine and the concept behind it can be seen as my own personal taste.
so when i am told its wrong for any reason,it tends to irk me.

but that aside,when a piece of work is for a game then i also take into account i have to follow a set of rules and concepts that need to follow someone elses rules,this is when things get murky for any designer/creator,wether itsa building or weapon or armour etc.

the point i am trying to make is the game as a whole belongs to bioware developers and so we as a whole dont really have any rights to demand changes.
we can ask,and suggest,and if a developer is worth his salt he/she will think of that when creating anything.

as for the retake movement,i think mistakes were made from day 1.
this is how i would have handled it,first started a thread and poll that stated what we would like,and this way by the sheer force of numbers and promised purchases would have swayed the devs much better than what actually happened.
say you had 60k members all promising to buy dlc that they wanted,thats a honeypot that the bean counters would have listened to.

also i said this earlier,retake is being undermined by a few trollers who are pretending to be a part of retake,starting flamefests and attacking anyone they think is fair game.
I suspect retake members can also see the very few who are doing it too.

I dont think there are 2 sides [pro enders and anti enders],i think thats just evolved from the flamebaiting.


ps..just from stripping the game down its obvious there was a lot more planned for this build,a lot more,which might even be there awaiting release,but the fracas became so vehement it forced the holding back until calm prevailed.

imagine the good will that could have happened if those cupcakes were sent with the simple message >

"400 cupcakes in gratitude for a fantastic game,and a hope you bring us more closure when you can,hope you enjoy them"

you would have a very happy bunch of devs,stuffed with sugar and hyper to please us all more

Modifié par AJRimmsey, 05 avril 2012 - 03:11 .

[taelus.calimshan]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Alright, I'm going to attempt to record straight: there is not some nebulous, shadowy organization of people who like the ending who sent hate mail to Child's Play--this is not a thing. Your donations were returned because enough of your supporters sent refund requests to the CP Paypal that it was in serious danger of being suspended.

Furthermore, you are not a charitable organization. You are an organization that exists to put economic pressure on a game company in order to change their policy. This is all well and good, and more power to you for doing so, but CP's 401©(3) status is threatened by taking donations of that nature--hence, your $80,000 were an extraordinary risk to take, because the source of the money threatened the future millions that CP has the potential to raise by making them an unwilling pawn in a corporate struggle.

Long story short, don't pretend the charity drive failed because of the Illuminati. It failed because you didn't get the details down--the interview at the beginning of this thread outlines this in very vague terms, but admits it nonetheless.

Reading the article, I see that the leadership of Retake has learned a lot of these lessons about planning ahead and making sure that the steps they take are going to land on solid ground. I'm happy for y'all, and I hope you do some good--I really think that Eric has this planned out in a way that should work this time if everyone follows the rules he has set out.

Just remember, the burden for this to turn out differently than Child's Play does not rest on some shadowy group of people who doesn't like you--it's all on you, for better or worse. Godspeed.

This is a valid, if very direct, point and I see why it being direct with it has value.  I'm not sure where the rumor came about that people in support of the endings sabotaged the charity and actually, this is the first I've heard of it, but I believe those who say it exists.  I agree completely that the reason the Child's Play charity drive ended up with an unhappy ending is because what is essentially a protest group can't be directly associated with a charity organization in terms of funding.  I don't believe for a moment that anyone believed they were doing harm when the charity was set up or when people donated to it, it's just an unfortunate situation that came from a lack of understanding.

I guess the only reason I'm posting this is to try to tone back your message a bit and say that while it's on the people donating to do some due diligence, this was an understandable mistake for most people who didn't realize their attempt to do something good would have negative side effects.  I don't think anyone involved in any aspect of that situation, perhaps save for the people asking for refunds, derve any ire or accusation, and this is absolutely true for the folks opposing the Retake group.

[kbct]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Alright, I'm going to attempt to record straight: there is not some nebulous, shadowy organization of people who like the ending who sent hate mail to Child's Play--this is not a thing. Your donations were returned because enough of your supporters sent refund requests to the CP Paypal that it was in serious danger of being suspended.

Who cares. The CP Paypal account wasn't suspended. Child's Play received the donations.

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Long story short, don't pretend the charity drive failed because of the Illuminati. It failed because you didn't get the details down--the interview at the beginning of this thread outlines this in very vague terms, but admits it nonetheless.

Who cares. Fall down seven times, stand up eight. We've made adjustments. We're looking to the future.

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Just remember, the burden for this to turn out differently than Child's Play does not rest on some shadowy group of people who doesn't like you--it's all on you, for better or worse. Godspeed.

Whatever changes happen to the ending, whether it be a fix or a clarification, it won't be because of you.

[UnstableMongoose]

taelus.calimshan wrote...

*snip*

I've tried posting more indirect information regarding this topic and every time I get swarmed by people spreading the "pro-enders complained to Child's Play" rumor. 

As such, I decided it was necessary to be a blunt as possible regarding the actual situation while still maintaining a deep respect for Retake itself. The concepts are something people who want to support this really need to understand or we're simply going to have another tragedy where $80,000 worth of charitable donations don't go where they're intended.

As such, I didn't want to mince words on the issue. I have nothing but respect for the reasons why Retake started the charity drive--which is why I want to make sure that everyone knows they're going to have to buckle down hard if they want things to work this time. The Child's Play situation is only going to make other groups more wary of assocating with Retake from here on out.

I think Eric's idea to try and split the charity drive away from Retake itself is the intelligent move here, but the Retake community needs to know the discipline it's going to take to be successful while employing this strategy. I think its leaders understand because they had to learn the hard way when something they really put work into failed, but it's up to the rank-and-file of Retake now to bring this full circle and accomplish their objective.

Modifié par UnstableMongoose, 05 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[UnstableMongoose]

slyguy200 wrote...

^
so many text walls
some are small, some are large, either way I[/b][b] will not read them.

There once was a dude from the boards.
The letters TL;DR were his wards.
He would never get caught
Reading posts with long thought
But his statements just struck no chords.

[taelus.calimshan]

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...

[quote]taelus.calimshan wrote...

<Snipping mine entirely...I'm kind of verbose>
[/quote]

<Snipping AJ's in places because he's also a writer>

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...
Makes a lot of sense.

also good to converse here without it devolving into insults and stupidity.
[/quote]

Agreed.  I much prefer civil discussion between people who admit all parties involved are probably pretty decent people as opposed to the crazy fights I've seen around the forums these last weeks.

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...
the mistake maybe i have made was explained to me earlier on another site where i work with american modders and developers.
its the word "entitled",here its not taken as it is by a lot over the ocean on your side,as i am led to understand its an insult more than a description.
[/quote]

This is absolutely true.  In the US, the word "entitled" carries a very negative connotation.

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...

Though i still cant agree with the demands side,as someone who has spent many years with gaming and developers we do tend to see demands from an artistic side,its like a painter being told thier work isnt to a standard,which isnt our standard and therefore supposed to be at fault.

<Here's that snipping I was talking about>

the point i am trying to make is the game as a whole belongs to bioware developers and so we as a whole dont really have any rights to demand changes.
we can ask,and suggest,and if a developer is worth his salt he/she will think of that when creating anything.
[/quote]

I guess I see the ownership differently.  When an artist makes something for themselves, it utterly belongs to them.  "Starry Night" was definitely Van Gogh's to do as he pleased.  However, when something is commissioned, which means paid for without seeing it in advance with specific requirements, the final decision about completion belongs to the consumer who paid for it.  In art, if the painting (let's say a portrait) isn't to the buyer's liking, the artist has to redo it.  That probably irks the artist, and understandably so because it means the customer just isn't understanding what the artist is trying to represent and I would imagine that's immensely frustrating.  Even so, they have to redo it.  Since this game was commissioned (pre-orders create that scenario), they are at the behest of the consumer, who is really the decision maker about the final product, whether that consumer knows it or not.

I think this, in many ways, sucks for the artists involved who probably wonder why we're not understanding what they intended.  I feel for them, I just think that in this scenario, it's the customers who are correct.

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...
as for the retake movement,i think mistakes were made from day 1.
this is how i would have handled it,first started a thread and poll that stated what we would like,and this way by the sheer force of numbers and promised purchases would have swayed the devs much better than what actually happened.
say you had 60k members all promising to buy dlc that they wanted,thats a honeypot that the bean counters would have listened to.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if that would have worked.  Or at least, I think people involved were sufficiently uncertain of if that would work that they chose to go with something they were more confident would create action.  Making the request is a gamble that the devs would be morally motivated to act and make changes.  Making a demand forces them to make a more monetary decision and the Retake group ultimately opted to go that road.  It's possible you're right and that being more humble about it would have generated more positive results.  Sadly, there's no good way to tell.  The Retake group went with what they (and I'm included in this) believed would be the best road for getting results.  It's possible we were wrong, it's possible we were right.  I think it's sad that things have been hostile instead of driven by mutual respect and admiration, but I think that lack in the last bit is drive more by what you say here:

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...
also i said this earlier,retake is being undermined by a few trollers who are pretending to be a part of retake,starting flamefests and attacking anyone they think is fair game.
I suspect retake members can also see the very few who are doing it too.

I dont think there are 2 sides [pro enders and anti enders],i think thats just evolved from the flamebaiting.
[/quote]

A very valid point.  I think both "sides" are plagued by people who just want to have an argument and take out frustration on anyone willing to engage with them.  The BioWare moderators are trying to keep that down, but there really aren't enough of them for this task.  I agree that this isn't about sides.  People have incredibly varying opinions on this topic.  Some loved the endings.  Some hated them, but don't think they should be changed.  Some hated them and think they should be changed.  Others don't really care one way or the other.  It's hard to place all of that in categories.

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...
ps..just from stripping the game down its obvious there was a lot more planned for this build,a lot more,which might even be there awaiting release,but the fracas became so vehement it forced the holding back until calm prevailed.
[/quote]

It might and it might not.  That's the hard part with this.  We can always argue about what might or might not have been in the wings with the game's DLC to complete things, but neither of us can know, so it just ends up as a fight we can't resolve.  I prefer to avoid these particular aspects of the discussion because I don't to get bogged down in an argument where neither of us has any real chance of coming to an understanding with the other.

[quote]AJRimmsey wrote...
imagine the good will that could have happened if those cupcakes were sent with the simple message >

"400 cupcakes in gratitude for a fantastic game,and a hope you bring us more closure when you can,hope you enjoy them"

you would have a very happy bunch of devs,stuffed with sugar and hyper to please us all more

[/quote]

That was actually the original plan, for the most part.  The cupcakes were colored red, blue, and green, but not as an attempt at a statement so much as an attempt at humor.  The cupcakes were there to create levity and the notes that went along with them supported that.  I think the seriousness of the sales impact attributed to this movement created an environment where the staff couldn't accept them without it being taken by some to be an admission of guilt or some other nonsense.  I think the cupcakes were fine as a gesture, I think the environment and the current mood just kept them from reaching their intended target.  Still, good that some kids had a nice afternoon as a result.

Wait, did we just come full circle to the topic of the original post?  Wow...how'd that happen?  

[taelus.calimshan]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

taelus.calimshan wrote...

*snip*

I've tried posting more indirect information regarding this topic and every time I get swarmed by people spreading the "pro-enders complained to Child's Play" rumor. 

As such, I decided it was necessary to be a blunt as possible regarding the actual situation while still maintaining a deep respect for Retake itself. The concepts are something people who want to support this really need to understand or we're simply going to have another tragedy where $80,000 worth of charitable donations don't go where they're intended.

As such, I didn't want to mince words on the issue. I have nothing but respect for the reasons why Retake started the charity drive--which is why I want to make sure that everyone knows they're going to have to buckle down hard if they want things to work this time. The Child's Play situation is only going to make other groups more wary of assocating with Retake from here on out.

I think Eric's idea to try and split the charity drive away from Retake itself is the intelligent move here, but the Retake community needs to know the discipline it's going to take to be successful while employing this strategy. I think its leaders understand because they had to learn the hard way when something they really put work into failed, but it's up to the rank-and-file of Retake now to bring this full circle and accomplish their objective.

Understood.  People can sometimes be difficult creatures (I'm one of those).  Every now and then being blunt is just what's called for.  Sorry to hear that you were getting slammed by what is essentially a conspiracy theory.

Also, I want this thread to keep moving because I like the discussion, but the presence of an 11 month old in my house means I have to head to bed now.  I'll pick back up in the morning so if anyone is looking for responses from me, check back in about 9 hours and I'll be here.  Until then, goodnight.

[AJRimmsey]

taelus.calimshan wrote...

snipped but agree with everything said...

time to cook the wee ones breakfast...but