306 réponses à ce sujet

[invulnerable23]

This is getting ridiculous. I'm pretty passionate about this, but come on...

I'm all for changing the ending, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend you can change someone's opinion. I absolutely abhorred the ending and felt like it was a gross destruction of what ME has come to be. Likewise, I'm not going to pretend that the Pro-End fans are any more stupid than the Retake fans; I've seen terrible grammar, poor logic, and destructive flaming on both sides.

Simply this: Don't like the Retake movement? Fine. Don't like Pro-Ending fans? Fine.

Quit shooting at each other! We're all getting hit with stray bullets...

Retake fans, I am one of you... what happened to "stay civil"? Let the trolls flame, and don't bother responding to it. And most importantly, don't become a troll yourself!

[BeefoTheBold]

streamlock wrote...

Should give out T-shirts at the front door with all the pre-release quotes.

Damn...I should have decided to SELL T-Shirts at the door with the prerelease quotes.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

I just want Halo 4 this thread is useless

You mentioned HALO 4, i am now dying with anticipation.

Its the most wanted game ever it'll top me3 it'll be epic ahhh master chief can't die not even precursors can kill him

[billywaffles]

kaztas wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

taelus.calimshan wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Capone666 wrote...

d4rkspike wrote...

As much as I disliked ME3s ending, I think I dislike what this "Retake ME3" movement has become even more.

What has it become?

its become what the retakers hate the mention of...entitlement.

"Entitlement
Definition:


Entitlement
- Entitlement or a 'Sense of Entitlement' is an unrealistic, unmerited
or inappropriate expectation of favorable living conditions and
favorable treatment at the hands of others."

boiled down the retakers are simply crying out "I want blah blah"

and retakers get awfully angry when anybody points out that thier "demands" are unreasonable when it comes to a video game ending.

You've got me confused here AJ.  Why are the demands unreasonable?  They certainly have precedent in any number of forms of media, including video games.  What about this situation in particular strikes you as unreasonable?

well,its a video game,created by bioware,to biowares standards.
what the content,theme or ending is,is simply what they produced.

if a person doesnt like it,they shouldnt buy it.

over the years there have been many things gamers didnt like about games,from buggy releases to snipped content sold as dlc,including the lying before release to bump sales.

every developer is doing these things and has been for years.
everybody knows they wont stop until we stop buying the games.

as for the idea of a charity drive,i am all for it,for the simple reason that whoever is getting the money is going to profit from it.
wether they call it expenses or a salary for doing the work,they will profit from it.
and as soon as interest is gone,they will also disappear into the ether with the money.

its the way of things in economys that are on the downturn.


but basically for all this fracas to be based on a games ending,that nobody really has a right to demand a change of,is just lunacy to me.

So voicing a problem about an ending to a series that even the head guy said was more like a collaboration with the fans, including using fan feedback to develop the previous game and using actually player feedback in which they watched what choices we made, what dialouge we skipped, what classes we use most:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1117896p1.html

This is entitlement? An erroneos assumption that our voices mean nothing and that if we "don't like a game don't buy it" even though in order to not like it we'd have to kind of buy it  to play it? (borrowing is another topic)

Wrong answer. Collaboration with fans led to Tali, Garrus, gay romance, etc., even MP thanks to feedback. They never said fans would create the story. This is not a sandbox game.

[kaztas]

AJRimmsey wrote...

kaztas wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

taelus.calimshan wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Capone666 wrote...

d4rkspike wrote...

As much as I disliked ME3s ending, I think I dislike what this "Retake ME3" movement has become even more.

What has it become?

its become what the retakers hate the mention of...entitlement.

"Entitlement
Definition:


Entitlement
- Entitlement or a 'Sense of Entitlement' is an unrealistic, unmerited
or inappropriate expectation of favorable living conditions and
favorable treatment at the hands of others."

boiled down the retakers are simply crying out "I want blah blah"

and retakers get awfully angry when anybody points out that thier "demands" are unreasonable when it comes to a video game ending.

You've got me confused here AJ.  Why are the demands unreasonable?  They certainly have precedent in any number of forms of media, including video games.  What about this situation in particular strikes you as unreasonable?

well,its a video game,created by bioware,to biowares standards.
what the content,theme or ending is,is simply what they produced.

if a person doesnt like it,they shouldnt buy it.

over the years there have been many things gamers didnt like about games,from buggy releases to snipped content sold as dlc,including the lying before release to bump sales.

every developer is doing these things and has been for years.
everybody knows they wont stop until we stop buying the games.

as for the idea of a charity drive,i am all for it,for the simple reason that whoever is getting the money is going to profit from it.
wether they call it expenses or a salary for doing the work,they will profit from it.
and as soon as interest is gone,they will also disappear into the ether with the money.

its the way of things in economys that are on the downturn.


but basically for all this fracas to be based on a games ending,that nobody really has a right to demand a change of,is just lunacy to me.

So voicing a problem about an ending to a series that even the head guy said was more like a collaboration with the fans, including using fan feedback to develop the previous game and using actually player feedback in which they watched what choices we made, what dialouge we skipped, what classes we use most:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1117896p1.html

This is entitlement? An erroneos assumption that our voices mean nothing and that if we "don't like a game don't buy it" even though in order to not like it we'd have to kind of buy it  to play it? (borrowing is another topic)

did it ever occur to you that instead of demanding new/more endings,all you really had to do was ask ?
if the retake group had simply called itself...say Coalition for more Mass Effect content,then i suspect you would be playing with more content by now.

but demanding it all cornered bioware so they had to rethink the whole thing,or isnt anyone curious as to why ANY dlc has not appeared yet ?

from day 1 its been demanding,not asking or suggesting,but demanding.

granted bioware followed the age old protocol of letting people believe they had a part in the games creation,but in reality we all again know that was just smoke n mirror talk,as with every other developer.

its not your ideas they want,its filler for thier own lack of imagination.
so many times mods have been plageurised by developers and called "fan content".

to this day theres still no consensus on what retake actually wants done.

I do agree "Demand" is a bit harsh, but that was its point. Asking, I doubt would have done anything more. At this point "Demand" is a misnomer as many within have tried to be civil and simply voice thier wish for a resolution and sent their intentions in a non-aggressive way.

"Demand" was simply a going on the Offensive type of position and it worked to an extent.

[kbct]

taelus.calimshan wrote...
For PAX, I'm just hoping all of my comrades in arms can keep it calm, civil, and specific to the topics at hand. I'm hoping BioWare has a solid answer for us about what's being done, but if they don't, I hope people only ask when they'll get that answer and then let it stop there. The worst thing that could happen for the Retake group is for some angry people to publicly derail the entire panel or the like.

Well, Operation Cupcake was a success. The notes sent with the cupcakes were light-hearted. LoganKey gave a great interview. The news story on Canadian TV went well. The person that was there to deliver the cupcakes was polite.

I hope the people that go to PAX discuss their plans together beforehand away from BSN so the PR spin-people don't have time to gameplan a response.

That's what happened with Operation Cupcake. At first, BioWare employees were happy to get cupcakes even though they knew we were ribbing them. Then, they stopped responding to the thread and we got a canned PR letter when the cupcakes were delivered.

[BeefoTheBold]

"Asking" was met with widespread disdain, patronization and ignoring from Bioware.

Vocal minority and all that.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 04 avril 2012 - 10:59 .

[Farbautisonn]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

"Asking" was met with widespread disdain, patronization and ignoring from Bioware.

Vocal minority and all that.

[AJRimmsey]

taelus.calimshan wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

<some snippage for the sake of post length>

well,its a video game,created by bioware,to biowares standards.
what the content,theme or ending is,is simply what they produced.

if a person doesnt like it,they shouldnt buy it.

over the years there have been many things gamers didnt like about games,from buggy releases to snipped content sold as dlc,including the lying before release to bump sales.

every developer is doing these things and has been for years.
everybody knows they wont stop until we stop buying the games.

as for the idea of a charity drive,i am all for it,for the simple reason that whoever is getting the money is going to profit from it.
wether they call it expenses or a salary for doing the work,they will profit from it.
and as soon as interest is gone,they will also disappear into the ether with the money.

its the way of things in economys that are on the downturn.


but basically for all this fracas to be based on a games ending,that nobody really has a right to demand a change of,is just lunacy to me.

I think I see where you're coming from, but correct me if I'm off base on this one.  I see a few points being made:

- BioWare produced the game to be what they wanted it to be and so whatever that is, for better or for worse, is what it is.  Changing that is inappropriate.

- Anyone who disagrees with something in the game (content, DLC usage, etc.) should voice that opinion by not purchasing the game, but does not have any claim to demand changes.

I think that's the salient stuff (I omitted the charity stuff for the sake of being specific to a single idea).

I guess I see it differently.  I see what BioWare created as something to be sold.  A product, specifically designed for people to consume.  With most products, things can't be easily changed after they're initially created, so I see the difficulty in demanding changes there, but I also see that many companies will take a severe backlash against a product and make the corrections demanded in the newest version of that product.  Cars, computers, restaurants, and any number of other groups all do this.  So I guess what I'm getting at is that I see a company's response to consumer feedback when that feedback is significantly negative and from a core part of their consumer base as not only optional, but indeed critical to that company's future success.  I see that as making it reasonable for people to demand changes in a product for its next iteration.

Software has an interesting place in this because its next available iteration can actually be generated and disseminated remotely.  If someone finds a huge Windows bug that everyone is angry about, Microsoft can issue a fix for it and push that out to the consumers by "update".  That means that instead of having to wait for a new version of Windows with the correction, the current version can just be changed to be accurate to the promises of the software in terms of functionality.  I see ME3 in the same light.  Something has been pointed out to be contrary to the advertised functionality of the product and BioWare are in a position to correct this with an "update" (or DLC or whatever name it takes on).  I see this demand for change as being just as valid as a demand made to Microsoft if their operating system failed to provide a promised feature.

So, that's why I don't agree with the term "entitlement" in this scenario.  I think this is just consumer advocacy, but I admit that not everyone will share that opinion and I don't take issue with those who disagree.  So, can you help me understand better, given what I've provided, what your perspective is?

the only information i can see you lacking is how the development cycle works,and the publishers involvement.

in the good old days the developers were the gods,ad what they wanted was first on the list.
but sadly today they are at the bottom and sat in long factory lines doing what they are told.

and this is the real bastid of it...the ones doing the planning DONT play games.

now,if the reatke/coalition had shown from day 1 that there was a vast amount of people wanted more endings/plot fillers,then thats what the bean counters would have made priority.

when you actually compare 3 to 1 and 2,you can see theres actually more been removed from the game than added,and thats a sure sign of bean counters and publishers greed.

I would bet my right AND left testicle that in an office at bioware or EA theres dlc that was supposed to be released weeks ago.
it might even be plothole filler and alternative endings designed to shunt the mass effect franchise to other levels.

but i suspect it will never see the light of day,and the next games we see will be nothing more than simple shooters where the only choices made are what colour the armour will be.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

I just want Halo 4 this thread is useless

You mentioned HALO 4, i am now dying with anticipation.

Its the most wanted game ever it'll top me3 it'll be epic ahhh master chief can't die not even precursors can kill him

Precursors? Has the enemy been confirmed yet, i have not been paying much attention on the subject.
Halo 4 will have the best release, and will hopefully not pull an ME3 on us:P.Accitaly the Covies are back 

[kbct]

HenchxNarf wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...

Ugh, I'm so sick of hearing about this. It's just a videogame. It's my favorite series ever and I never found any of this necessary.

If BioWare changes the ending it'll set a terrible precedent for the gaming industry. Creative developers will want to stick with "safe" happy endings and greedy publishers like EA and Activision will want to release multiple ending DLCs for games. You don't ask a musician to re-record his music and you don't ask a director to re-film his movie, but apparently you'll demand repeatedly that a game developer "fix" their game. Grow up, people.

Yeah, but that's logic and people can't wrap their head around this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. They don't seem to see or care about how this is going to effect gaming going forward. We're going to end up with sandbox games with no story at all, or stories so linear that you'll know what's happening before it happens. And what's even worse, is that the people who are causing it don't care. They just care about what they want, hell with everyone else.

Nothing gets done when people do nothing. We think the epic Mass Effect story deserves a better ending. We are doing something about it.

Two people IN THE INDUSTRY have already responded in this thread. Others have as well in other thread. They have all said they are taking this very seriously:

http://social.biowar...0007/4#10998686

http://social.biowar...0007/3#10998138

Again, why should we stop?

Modifié par kbct, 04 avril 2012 - 11:07 .

[AJRimmsey]

kaztas wrote...

I do agree "Demand" is a bit harsh, but that was its point. Asking, I doubt would have done anything more. At this point "Demand" is a misnomer as many within have tried to be civil and simply voice thier wish for a resolution and sent their intentions in a non-aggressive way.

"Demand" was simply a going on the Offensive type of position and it worked to an extent.

agreed i see the civil side of retake a lot,but i also see you being trolled to hell and back by a couple who are acting as though on retakes side.
but its those few who are tainting anything retake trys to do.

but again,believe me,demanding will do more harm than good,as they simply cannot kao tao to demands,because every game released after would have to please everyone,and thats not possible.

slyguy200 wrote...

AJRimmsey
Could you shorten that thread a little, it is too big.

no,the guy was so polite and logical to deface it would ruin the points made on both sides.

Modifié par AJRimmsey, 04 avril 2012 - 11:08 .

[kaztas]

the only information i can see you lacking is how the development cycle works,and the publishers involvement.

in the good old days the developers were the gods,ad what they wanted was first on the list.
but sadly today they are at the bottom and sat in long factory lines doing what they are told.

and this is the real bastid of it...the ones doing the planning DONT play games.

now,if the reatke/coalition had shown from day 1 that there was a vast amount of people wanted more endings/plot fillers,then thats what the bean counters would have made priority.

when you actually compare 3 to 1 and 2,you can see theres actually more been removed from the game than added,and thats a sure sign of bean counters and publishers greed.

I would bet my right AND left testicle that in an office at bioware or EA theres dlc that was supposed to be released weeks ago.
it might even be plothole filler and alternative endings designed to shunt the mass effect franchise to other levels.

but i suspect it will never see the light of day,and the next games we see will be nothing more than simple shooters where the only choices made are what colour the armour will be.

Are you saying that because of uproar, bioware didn't release DLC out of spite?...really?....REALLY?
and if this WAS true, do you think they would have charged us? Or would it be free?

So BioWare simply went  "Neh, now you can't have it!"

Because if they did charge, there would have been even more outcry. I would prefer them to have been rushed than to have done that.

Modifié par kaztas, 04 avril 2012 - 11:10 .

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

...

Precursors? Has the enemy been confirmed yet, i have not been paying much attention on the subject.
Halo 4 will have the best release, and will hopefully not pull an ME3 on us:P.Accitaly the Covies are back 

I was really looking forward to having elite allies. Jul was succesful then.

Elites left the Covies didn't they?

[Mylia Stenetch]

Farbautisonn wrote...

To your questions. It is hard to say, since the entire thing is a quagmire. I think they want it done so they can prepare to market the next game DA:3.

-No its not. And if you think this fecal blizzard wont have an effect on DA3 and how people will recieve DA3 then You are mistaken.

I am just taking this. You asked it Bioware/EA want to calm this down. I replied saying they do want it done, but it won't be easy since it is turning into a politcal quagmire on either side cause of the extremes. They do want it done to prepare the populous for DA:3 that is constant.


Also about the PR from Bioware. I will admit I am not a master of spin, I do read a bit about it and use it for work when dealing with customers. I was mainly askiing if that could be turned as positive spin, for Bioware. It seems like it could of been, but it all counts in what the public eye think.

Modifié par Mylia Stenetch, 04 avril 2012 - 11:16 .

[AJRimmsey]

kaztas wrote...

the only information i can see you lacking is how the development cycle works,and the publishers involvement.

in the good old days the developers were the gods,ad what they wanted was first on the list.
but sadly today they are at the bottom and sat in long factory lines doing what they are told.

and this is the real bastid of it...the ones doing the planning DONT play games.

now,if the reatke/coalition had shown from day 1 that there was a vast amount of people wanted more endings/plot fillers,then thats what the bean counters would have made priority.

when you actually compare 3 to 1 and 2,you can see theres actually more been removed from the game than added,and thats a sure sign of bean counters and publishers greed.

I would bet my right AND left testicle that in an office at bioware or EA theres dlc that was supposed to be released weeks ago.
it might even be plothole filler and alternative endings designed to shunt the mass effect franchise to other levels.

but i suspect it will never see the light of day,and the next games we see will be nothing more than simple shooters where the only choices made are what colour the armour will be.

Are you saying that because of uproar, bioware didn't release DLC out of spite?...really?....REALLY?
and if this WAS true, do you think they would have charged us? Or would it be free?

So BioWare simply went  "Neh, now you can't have it!"

Because if they did charge, there would have been even more outcry. I would prefer them to have been rushed than to have done that.

NO,not spite.

just business sense,what do you think would happen if they released dlc while being attacked ?
and if it is ending/plothole dlc,then it would have looked like kao tao`ing,and caused future problems.

[i IIVIIorpheus]

billywaffles wrote...

kaztas wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

taelus.calimshan wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Capone666 wrote...

d4rkspike wrote...

As much as I disliked ME3s ending, I think I dislike what this "Retake ME3" movement has become even more.

What has it become?

its become what the retakers hate the mention of...entitlement.

"Entitlement
Definition:


Entitlement
- Entitlement or a 'Sense of Entitlement' is an unrealistic, unmerited
or inappropriate expectation of favorable living conditions and
favorable treatment at the hands of others."

boiled down the retakers are simply crying out "I want blah blah"

and retakers get awfully angry when anybody points out that thier "demands" are unreasonable when it comes to a video game ending.

You've got me confused here AJ.  Why are the demands unreasonable?  They certainly have precedent in any number of forms of media, including video games.  What about this situation in particular strikes you as unreasonable?

well,its a video game,created by bioware,to biowares standards.
what the content,theme or ending is,is simply what they produced.

if a person doesnt like it,they shouldnt buy it.

over the years there have been many things gamers didnt like about games,from buggy releases to snipped content sold as dlc,including the lying before release to bump sales.

every developer is doing these things and has been for years.
everybody knows they wont stop until we stop buying the games.

as for the idea of a charity drive,i am all for it,for the simple reason that whoever is getting the money is going to profit from it.
wether they call it expenses or a salary for doing the work,they will profit from it.
and as soon as interest is gone,they will also disappear into the ether with the money.

its the way of things in economys that are on the downturn.


but basically for all this fracas to be based on a games ending,that nobody really has a right to demand a change of,is just lunacy to me.

So voicing a problem about an ending to a series that even the head guy said was more like a collaboration with the fans, including using fan feedback to develop the previous game and using actually player feedback in which they watched what choices we made, what dialouge we skipped, what classes we use most:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1117896p1.html

This is entitlement? An erroneos assumption that our voices mean nothing and that if we "don't like a game don't buy it" even though in order to not like it we'd have to kind of buy it  to play it? (borrowing is another topic)

Wrong answer. Collaboration with fans led to Tali, Garrus, gay romance, etc., even MP thanks to feedback. They never said fans would create the story. This is not a sandbox game.

LOL...I love this.....

The irony of your post about "sandbox" stories being a consequence of this movement, is that this is EXACTLY what happened with the ME3 ending.  They took something out of the sky, that made NO sense, and then applied to an epic series that opened more plotholes and questions then it answered.  They built the ending right out of the sandbox...

Thanks for proving the people who are upset about the ending correct.....

[TRISTAN WERBE]

slyguy200 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...
...
Elites left the Covies didn't they?

Oh, that's right...
Death to the Brutes!!

And all the but raping robots I'll bet will be in this game

[UniqueName001]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

... "your poorly-organized charity event got Child's Play into serious legal trouble and enough people demanded charity refunds that it nearly suspended CP's Paypal account" ...

I'd be really interested in seeing your source for this claim.

Modifié par UniqueName001, 04 avril 2012 - 11:16 .

[Farbautisonn]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

I am just taking this. You asked it Bioware/EA want to calm this down. I replied saying they do want it done, but it won't be easy since it is turning into a politcal quagmire on either side cause of the extremes. They do want it done to prepare the populous for DA:3 that is constant.

-Okidoki. Sure. And no. It wont be easy now. Infact I do not envy the spinteam/marketing guys at bioware. Finding a compromise to suit all will be extremely difficult but that I only see as an even more important factor in taking the "Retake" guys serious. The can raise a fecal blizzard. But they can also calm it down.

And yes. They want to prepare us for DA3. However mentioning DA3 now will only cause the filth that surrounds ME to rub on of DA3. And that has the DA2 legacy. It doesnt need more dirt. Id really... and I mean REALLY try to keep those IPs miles apart at this stage.

But again. It wont matter that much. From when DA3 gets announced to when it gets released, people are going to be going over every single word Bioware states about that francise. They will pick it apart with toothpics to find bugs, logic and lore inconsistencies and anything that even remotely reminds them of the DA2, Bazaar, Deception and ME3 issues. And no game is perfect on relase, so dirt will be found. I dont envy the guys on the DA3 team either.

[Kalms]

Tazzmission wrote...

i would love to go to pax and bust up the take back movement

Is that a threat of violence? This forum is getting worse by the minute.