113 réponses à ce sujet

[dpg05c]

Woo, handling two quotes at once.

The Angry One wrote...


Shepard is essentially told that the Crucible is a Reaper device to carry out a Reaper plan which will doom the galaxy.
Shepard doesn't even question this because.....?

Actually, Shepard isn't told any of that.   Shepard is just told the Crucible will stop the Reapers. 

Also, destruction of the relays doesn't mean that the galaxy is doomed.   But I won't get into that argument in this thread.

Twinzam.V wrote...
How does Starchild even know what the Crucible does. The Crucible
started as an independent weapon and as more civilizations were
building/adding more things to the Crucible it was realized that it was
needed a large power source and the Citadel was incorporated in those
plans.
So if the Starchild is the Citadel and the Citadel is the
Catalyst, how can Starchild say "oh the Crucible does this and you have
this 3 choices.".
It was something that i wondered.

My theory is that the Crucible was started by the first race.   Plans for it were passed on to the next cycle as a failsafe, and the Catalyst was included in the Citadel as a sleeper program for when they finally figured it out.

I could be wrong.   Any of this could be wrong.   


The biggest problem with the ending as it currently is, is that we have way too much speculation necessary.

We need clarification of certain things in order for the ending to make sense.  I'm hoping that's what we'll get.

[dreman9999]

Jenonax wrote...

The reason I cannot get behind the Catalyst has nothing to do with whether or not it may have millions of years of experience in these matters.

At some point it was created. If we follow its logic then we must assume that it rebelled against its creators. So it created the Reapers to solve a problem that it itself either created or was a part of. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

The sense of it is that the reapers are trying to repress  organics form making the same mistake their creators made.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
Your saying a race, the protheans, who went to planet to planet imperalisticly concuring it races to fight a war isnot an example of the chaos of organic?

They imposed order and uniformity.
I think that's a better type of order than causing galactic scale suffering, torture and genocide every 50,000 years.

And for the current time line, just glancing at it illustated this...The turian unification wars, the morning war, the firstcontact war, the blitz, then the Taetrus war  
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Taetrus ,
then the war on
Garvug[/b] 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Garvug .

So using prothean and the current timeline as examples of order in not a great example.

I'm speaking of the Council, individual wars are of no matter.
The First Contact War? You mean the one where the Turians and humans were gearing up for a massive interstellar war, and then the Council stepped in and said "STOP IT. RIGHT NOW."?

[dpg05c]

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

[dreman9999]

DJBare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You do understand that comment form soverngn just means Reaper think very little of us and are morals. Think of how the european though of the indians.... And then howthe european concured them and force their beleifs on them to make them better. Same concept.

Yup, we each interpret in a way that suits our bias.

Which is my problem with the reapers. They impossing their morals on to us thinking it's making us better.

[The Angry One]

dpg05c wrote...

Actually, Shepard isn't told any of that.   Shepard is just told the Crucible will stop the Reapers. 

Essentially told.
Put 2 and 2 together. Nobody knew what the device does. The Catalyst knows.
Therefore, logically, it designed it in the first place. Moreover all it's functions represent the Reaper's point of view and ultimate plan.

- Destroy all synthetics (because synthetics are bad)
- Control Reapers (Reapers are and must always be relevant)
- Make everybody like the Reapers (hooray, we'll do lunch with Harbinger)

Also, destruction of the relays doesn't mean that the galaxy is doomed.   But I won't get into that argument in this thread.

Gone over this a million times. Yes it does. You know what? I'm bringin that pic out again.

[MetalCargo999]

dpg05c wrote...

Okay, before I answer that, I wasn't sure if you were addressing me or not.

MetalCargo999 wrote...

I think you might have misunderstood the initial conflict that sparked the reaper cycle. Starchild created reapers in order to prune and thus preserve advanced organics as a result of synthetic vs organic causing the extinction of organic. You have it right that all the previous cycles may have supported the catalyst's logic, and that his logic is internally consistent. Where I think you're wrong is what cycle Shepard breaks and how he does it.

Go on.

Shepard breaks the initial cycle of S. vs. O. causing the extinction of O. in his cycle, demonstrating that the confict that exists between S. vs. O. is a manufactured conflict not inherant in either organic or synthetic nature, rendering the reaper cycle unnecessary. The catalyst's logic, while sound, contradicts Shepard's possible experience in the game of uniting the geth with the quarians and causing EDI to fall in love with Joker and make moral choices. Unfortunately for the game, it seems that the 3 solutions written in for the crucible are all logical ouworkings of the S. vs. O. confict, and not solutions to the reaper cycle (although it INCLUDES a solution tho the reaper cycle). But this is wrong since the S. vs. O. conflict was, as I already mentioned, solved by SHepard. He was the solution to the catalyst's problem before he even met the catalyst. The entire ending with the catalyst therefore becomes arbitrary, and what's worse, SHepard doesn't seem to remember any of the things he did previously in the game.

Well, one could argue that blood loss plus fighting off TIM's indoctrination craziness could cause memory loss.   could argue.  

So here is my question: if S. vs O. was already resolved, rendering the reaper cycle useless, then why did the Starchild, the creator of the reapers, not call them off instead of using the crucible (which turns out to be COMPLETELY useless in light of Shepard's possible actions)?

It might be possible that until the Crucible was active the Catalyst was not.   The Star Kid also implies that he doesn't have the power to stop the Reapers himself, even if he wanted to.    That's the reason Shepard is forced to make the choice.

While I don't think the ending is all bad, I just don't think it is a one size fits all end. That's why they need to expand on it or add to it, for people who played the game like I did.

Oh, I'm not arguing that the ending shouldn't be adjusted, expanded, or whatnot.   I want more explanation.  I want them to add to it.  I want TBME to succeed, personally.   I just don't think the end is all that bad.

Yea, unfortunately, I just watched the ending again.  There is nothing to suggest that the Starchild is powerless to stop the reapers.  It does explicitly say that it cannot perform the the functions of the crucible, however.  It also says that the crucible, as I mentioned, created new solutions.  But solutions to what?  The S. vs O. conflict had already been resolved!  The entire ending sequence with Starchild and the crucible become arbitrary plot devices meant to bring about an ending to the game.  Nothing more.  As a matter of fact, Starchild says "we" when referring to the Reaper race.  He IS a reaper, in a sense, being their creator.

Modifié par MetalCargo999, 04 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Your saying a race, the protheans, who went to planet to planet imperalisticly concuring it races to fight a war isnot an example of the chaos of organic?

They imposed order and uniformity.
I think that's a better type of order than causing galactic scale suffering, torture and genocide every 50,000 years.

And for the current time line, just glancing at it illustated this...The turian unification wars, the morning war, the firstcontact war, the blitz, then the Taetrus war  
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Taetrus ,
then the war on
Garvug[/b] 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Garvug .

So using prothean and the current timeline as examples of order in not a great example.

I'm speaking of the Council, individual wars are of no matter.
The First Contact War? You mean the one where the Turians and humans were gearing up for a massive interstellar war, and then the Council stepped in and said "STOP IT. RIGHT NOW."?

1.That's exacly what the reapers are doing but without a gurantee  the peace will last.
2.Yes, the same council that did nothing to help the quarians, and nothing to stop the bartarian/human war.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 avril 2012 - 07:16 .

[Sisterofshane]

dpg05c wrote...

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

This is what I was saying before - any evidence taken into account during the existence of the Reapers has to be dismissed, because of the high probabilty that they caused it to happen themselves.  If I say that I have to kill my dog because it killed my cat, when I'm the one who put the cat in the cage with the dog in the first place, I can't really blame the dog then, can I?

And then it reverts back to what I said before, the evidence before hand could not have existed, because then organics would not be around today.  So either the Star Kid intervened WITHOUT a reaper, meaning that there is another solution, or the Star Kid did not intervene, and organic life came back ANYWAY.

[dreman9999]

dpg05c wrote...

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

You do realize how big space really is? How impossible it is to fine organic life by picking through it like sand?

[Railarian]

@dpg05c Can you explain me the logic behind the technological singularity?
Because to me it sounds like nothing more than a speculative theory that until proven cannot be held for truth, and if [<-important word here] proven, then it will be too late to do anything about it.

[dpg05c]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Yea, unfortunately, I just watched the ending again.  There is nothing to suggest that the Starchild is powerless to stop the reapers.  It does explicitly say that it cannot perform the the functions of the crucible, however.  It also says that the crucible, as I mentioned, created new solutions.  But solutions to what?  The S. vs O. conflict had already been resolved!  The entire ending sequence with Starchild and the crucible become arbitrary plot devices meant to bring about an ending to the game.  Nothing more.

Remember, the Reapers are the solution.    The only solution that the Star Kid sees as possible.  Even if the synthetic vs organic has been resolved, the Catalyst might still not see it that way.   The Crucible adds new potential ones, but the Catalyst can't choose between them, only Shepard can.

[dreman9999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dpg05c wrote...

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

This is what I was saying before - any evidence taken into account during the existence of the Reapers has to be dismissed, because of the high probabilty that they caused it to happen themselves.  If I say that I have to kill my dog because it killed my cat, when I'm the one who put the cat in the cage with the dog in the first place, I can't really blame the dog then, can I?

And then it reverts back to what I said before, the evidence before hand could not have existed, because then organics would not be around today.  So either the Star Kid intervened WITHOUT a reaper, meaning that there is another solution, or the Star Kid did not intervene, and organic life came back ANYWAY.

Your ingnoing the fact that organics can figuire out space travel by themselve....Ask yourself this question, what would happen if the reapers never intervened and the races earlier then the races we have now and the prothean race never were harvested?

[Svests]

Railarian wrote...

@dpg05c Can you explain me the logic behind the technological singularity?
Because to me it sounds like nothing more than a speculative theory that until proven cannot be held for truth, and if [<-important word here] proven, then it will be too late to do anything about it.

Exactly.  It is based on a predicate which cannot be falsified.  Therefore it is not actually logic.

[Pelle6666]

dpg05c wrote...
True.   But they still rebelled.

But they did not try to exterminate all synthetic life, they actually
agreed on a peaceful resolution to the conflict in ME3. Wich I
thought was the best damn part of the entire series.

dpg05c wrote...
I was actually talking about the one on the Citadel.

Ok, the only other AI we ever met. and the only hostile one.

dpg05c wrote...
Did you not even read my first post?    Efficency.    They are specifically setting them up for failure.

Still makes no sense , why bother to increase our technological advancement in such a way if they was going to harvest us anyway? They could just have put up a sign telling us; "oh, by the way, don't make synthetics, they will totally f*ck you up!"

dpg05c wrote...
Except it really hasn't been fully forbidden.  There are companies like Synthetic Insights and others which have Council authorization to do AI research.

So why help them reach such a high technological advancement!? And why attack the council?

dpg05c wrote...
Actually, no it doesn't.   The Catalyst is explaining the motivation of the Reapers.   Not our own motivations.   It doesn't actually violate any themes in that way.

So the Catalyst's logic makes sense just because the Catalysts sais it does? They are rendering all our aliances useless and makes characters like Legion and Edi seem like the vilains and to introduce a whole new aspect of the saga in the last minutes of a +100 hour game series is juast awful. No matter what the kid sais...

dpg05c wrote...
And this assumes that the Catalyst is telling the truth about Destroy.  That it will destroy the geth.   It specifically tells you that choosing destroy will kill Shepard.    Yet we see (with high enough EMS) that Shepard survives the Destroy ending.    I've also seen EDI survive the Destroy ending.  
The geth might survive.
As for the merging... it isn't like it's forcing the galaxy to do a Fusion Dance.    It's just basically making it so that everyone is compatible.  Synthetic or Organic.
They did not try to exterminate all synthetic life, they actually agreed on a peaceful resolution to the conflict in ME3. Someting that I thought was the best damn part of the entire series.

Yes, Shepard can survive and that is just another thing that makes no sense in the endings! If Edi survived the destroy ending then its a bug. she doesn't. Why the hell would the game lie to you about the outcome of your final "choice" As for the sythesis ending... I can only say Saren and hope you see the pattern. He didn't seem happy and still he claimed othervise until he blew his head off.
Seems like I can't make you change your mind, and I serriuosly didn't think you would but maybe you can at least look at what Bioware did to this wonderful game in the last five minutes. They ruined it.

Modifié par Pelle6666, 04 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[MetalCargo999]

dpg05c wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Yea, unfortunately, I just watched the ending again.  There is nothing to suggest that the Starchild is powerless to stop the reapers.  It does explicitly say that it cannot perform the the functions of the crucible, however.  It also says that the crucible, as I mentioned, created new solutions.  But solutions to what?  The S. vs O. conflict had already been resolved!  The entire ending sequence with Starchild and the crucible become arbitrary plot devices meant to bring about an ending to the game.  Nothing more.

Remember, the Reapers are the solution.    The only solution that the Star Kid sees as possible.  Even if the synthetic vs organic has been resolved, the Catalyst might still not see it that way.   The Crucible adds new potential ones, but the Catalyst can't choose between them, only Shepard can.

True, the reapers are the solution.  But they are a solution to the S. vs O. problem, a problem that I argue has already been resolved by Shepard.  The catalyst, you say, doesn't see it that way.  The only possible solution he sees are the reapers.  So why does he let Shepard activate the crucible to create a "new" solution if he doesn't believe Shepard?  Why lift him up to see him in the first place?  If he only saw the reapers as his solution, why wasn't THAT an option included among the 3 others?

Modifié par MetalCargo999, 04 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[dpg05c]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dpg05c wrote...

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

This is what I was saying before - any evidence taken into account during the existence of the Reapers has to be dismissed, because of the high probabilty that they caused it to happen themselves.  If I say that I have to kill my dog because it killed my cat, when I'm the one who put the cat in the cage with the dog in the first place, I can't really blame the dog then, can I?

And then it reverts back to what I said before, the evidence before hand could not have existed, because then organics would not be around today.  So either the Star Kid intervened WITHOUT a reaper, meaning that there is another solution, or the Star Kid did not intervene, and organic life came back ANYWAY.

Remember, organic life = advanced organic life.    Look at what the Reapers target, they target advanced species.   The Asari, humans, and turians were around back in the Prothean Cycle.   They were left alone by the Reapers.   It might be that the creators of the Reapers specifically were talking about themselves.  So the evidence beforehand was the near-extinction of the species beforehand, but not necessarily of the underdeveloped species.

As for the tech singularity question....   I really don't have an answer to that one.

[dpg05c]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

dpg05c wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Yea, unfortunately, I just watched the ending again.  There is nothing to suggest that the Starchild is powerless to stop the reapers.  It does explicitly say that it cannot perform the the functions of the crucible, however.  It also says that the crucible, as I mentioned, created new solutions.  But solutions to what?  The S. vs O. conflict had already been resolved!  The entire ending sequence with Starchild and the crucible become arbitrary plot devices meant to bring about an ending to the game.  Nothing more.

Remember, the Reapers are the solution.    The only solution that the Star Kid sees as possible.  Even if the synthetic vs organic has been resolved, the Catalyst might still not see it that way.   The Crucible adds new potential ones, but the Catalyst can't choose between them, only Shepard can.

True, the reapers are the solution.  But they are a solution to the S. vs O. problem, a problem that I argue has already been resolved by Shepard.  The catalyst, you say, doesn't see it that way.  The only possible solution he sees are the reapers.  So why does he let Shepard activate the crucible to create a "new" solution if he doesn't believe Shepard?  Why lift him up to see him in the first place?  If he only saw the reapers as his solution, why wasn't THAT an option included among the 3 others?

Maybe the introduction of the crucible plus Shepard getting there erased
that as a potential solution, but the Catalyst can't actually tell the
Reapers to stop with the Crucible there.


I honestly don't know.   Speculation, speculation.   We need more explanation, more clarity.    I want the damn ending DLC.


Edit: Derped the quotes.

Modifié par dpg05c, 04 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.That's exacly what the reapers are doing but without a gurantee  the peace will last.

No it's not. The Protheans imposed order by using the stick of their military might, and the carrot of full citizenship in their vast empire.
The Reapers just kill everything, and make sure they suffer as inhumanely as possible while doing it.

2.Yes, the same council that did nothing to help the quarians, and nothing to stop the bartarian/human war.

The Batarians left the Citadel. What exactly could the Council do at that point? Overall order is maintained, that doesn't mean individual wars won't be fought. That is not a threat to order.

Perfect order (according to the Catalyst I mean, because true order is relative) could only be achieved by killing everything. Including itself. Permanently.).

[Sisterofshane]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

dpg05c wrote...

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

This is what I was saying before - any evidence taken into account during the existence of the Reapers has to be dismissed, because of the high probabilty that they caused it to happen themselves.  If I say that I have to kill my dog because it killed my cat, when I'm the one who put the cat in the cage with the dog in the first place, I can't really blame the dog then, can I?

And then it reverts back to what I said before, the evidence before hand could not have existed, because then organics would not be around today.  So either the Star Kid intervened WITHOUT a reaper, meaning that there is another solution, or the Star Kid did not intervene, and organic life came back ANYWAY.

Your ingnoing the fact that organics can figuire out space travel by themselve....Ask yourself this question, what would happen if the reapers never intervened and the races earlier then the races we have now and the prothean race never were harvested?

Except that by the Starchilds logic, organic vs. organic conflict doesn't matter.  It doesn't care that the Protheans were conquering the galaxy.  It doesn't care that the Rachni (through the Reaper's influence) were about to exterminate all other species.  It wouldn't get up off it's duff to save the Krogans from the genophage.

It only sees the conflict between synthetic versus organic.  The "reapers" are the solution to that problem.  NOT ONCE did the star kid mention the possibilty of stagnation of organic evolution, even though it may be considered an actual dilemma.  Therefore, what you are saying doesn't fit within the context of the Mass Effect story.

EDIT:  Major grammar fail

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 04 avril 2012 - 07:31 .

[MetalCargo999]

dpg05c wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

dpg05c wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Yea, unfortunately, I just watched the ending again.  There is nothing to suggest that the Starchild is powerless to stop the reapers.  It does explicitly say that it cannot perform the the functions of the crucible, however.  It also says that the crucible, as I mentioned, created new solutions.  But solutions to what?  The S. vs O. conflict had already been resolved!  The entire ending sequence with Starchild and the crucible become arbitrary plot devices meant to bring about an ending to the game.  Nothing more.

Remember, the Reapers are the solution.    The only solution that the Star Kid sees as possible.  Even if the synthetic vs organic has been resolved, the Catalyst might still not see it that way.   The Crucible adds new potential ones, but the Catalyst can't choose between them, only Shepard can.

True, the reapers are the solution.  But they are a solution to the S. vs O. problem, a problem that I argue has already been resolved by Shepard.  The catalyst, you say, doesn't see it that way.  The only possible solution he sees are the reapers.  So why does he let Shepard activate the crucible to create a "new" solution if he doesn't believe Shepard?  Why lift him up to see him in the first place?  If he only saw the reapers as his solution, why wasn't THAT an option included among the 3 others?

Maybe the introduction of the crucible plus Shepard getting there erased
that as a potential solution, but the Catalyst can't actually tell the
Reapers to stop with the Crucible there.


I honestly don't know.   Speculation, speculation.   We need more explanation, more clarity.    I want the damn ending DLC.


Edit: Derped the quotes.

Alright thanks.  I just wanted to know if there was something wrong with my thinking, but it seems it really does need clarification by the authors.  Thank you!

[Sisterofshane]

dpg05c wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

dpg05c wrote...

And by forcing them along a predetermined path, they make it easier on themselves.

Oh God, the Reapers are lazy people. Caught in a routine.

This is what I was saying before - any evidence taken into account during the existence of the Reapers has to be dismissed, because of the high probabilty that they caused it to happen themselves.  If I say that I have to kill my dog because it killed my cat, when I'm the one who put the cat in the cage with the dog in the first place, I can't really blame the dog then, can I?

And then it reverts back to what I said before, the evidence before hand could not have existed, because then organics would not be around today.  So either the Star Kid intervened WITHOUT a reaper, meaning that there is another solution, or the Star Kid did not intervene, and organic life came back ANYWAY.

Remember, organic life = advanced organic life.    Look at what the Reapers target, they target advanced species.   The Asari, humans, and turians were around back in the Prothean Cycle.   They were left alone by the Reapers.   It might be that the creators of the Reapers specifically were talking about themselves.  So the evidence beforehand was the near-extinction of the species beforehand, but not necessarily of the underdeveloped species.

As for the tech singularity question....   I really don't have an answer to that one.

What you said here exactly confirms my theory.  The Reapers were a solution to a problem that never existed.  Organic life came back - it was never truly in danger of being completely wiped out.  So why do we need to be culled every fifty thousand years>

[Baronesa]

Haven't we be over this particular argument before...

Ok... until I muster some strength to actually post, I stand by what TAO has said already.

[MetalCargo999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Except that by the Starchilds logic, organic vs. organic conflict doesn't matter.  It doesn't care that the Protheans were conquering the galaxy.  It doesn't care that the Rachni (through the Reaper's influence) were about to exterminate all other species.  It wouldn't get up off it's duff to save the Krogans from the genophage.

It only sees the conflict between synthetic versus organic.  The "reapers" are the solution to that problem.  NOT ONCE did the star kid mention the possibilty of stagnation of organic evolution, even though it may be considered an actual dilemma.  Therefore, what you are saying doesn't fit within the context of the Mass Effect story.

EDIT:  Major grammar fail

This is a very good point.  Organic vs organic is just as much a threat as synthetic vs organic.  It makes the ending seem even more arbitrary.

[dpg05c]

Sisterofshane wrote...


What you said here exactly confirms my theory.  The Reapers were a solution to a problem that never existed.  Organic life came back - it was never truly in danger of being completely wiped out.  So why do we need to be culled every fifty thousand years>

Because you're oversimplifying the theory and making it into a problem that doesn't exist.   It's a matter of perspective here.

If everything you know and ever did know was being wiped out by synthetics, and your option to save your species was the creation of the Reapers... then wouldn't you say that was the problem that the Reapers were created to solve?

Wiping out all known life or being in the process of which is the problem.