91 réponses à ce sujet

[GmanFresh]

im not too fond of users who overpraise devs as well..... i show praise where its due but this game had more than a few issues and i wish they wouldn't be dismissed as "whining"

[Beechwell]

GmanFresh wrote...
im not too fond of users who overpraise devs as well..... i show praise where its due but this game had more than a few issues and i wish they wouldn't be dismissed as "whining"

As does every other (sufficiently complex) game. Indeed I could make a looong lists about things I disliked about BG2 right out of the top of my head.

And it has already been noted that contrucitve criticism is generally welcome (of course there are always some who bark at any form of ciritcism, unfortunately). But flinging superlatives like "worst" "terrible" etc. is generally not constructive. No matter how mach justification the intended criticism may have.
(note: That is not directed against you personally. I have no idea if and how you make your complaints heard)

[bjdbwea]

What I meant is that it's their job to produce a game, and to process the praise as well as the complaints, probably mainly from the reviews. But of course it is advisable to scan their own forums as well, and they obviously do. Why that should be a reason not to write criticism in said forums, I still don't understand. Of course two thirds of the threads here are useless, but let's not forget that BioWare / EA basically force everyone to have an account here, so it should be no surprise to anyone that there are so many (crap) threads.

[David Gaider]

fro7k wrote...

If you have visited the BG2 forums right after release you would have sworn it was the worst game in existence

How could anyone think that.

Like I said, people forget. In the first while on the BG2 forums after release, chances are that 90% of the posts you would have seen on the front page would have read like this: "Too many bugs!" "BG2 doesn't follow D&D rules exactly!" "You screwed up on the lore!" "How dare you treat us female gamers unfairly!" "Mages are too powerful!" "classes are unbalanced!" "Game was boring/disappointing - here's why" "Should have been more like BG"

...and so forth and so forth. It's kind of funny how these days you'll get people swearing up and down that there's no nostalgia involved in how they remember BG2 -- because they assume notalgia is a bad thing, I guess? It's human nature. You forget the bad parts and remember the good. Someone had to remind me recently at how bitterly I complained about some of the things in Fallout 2 and how buggy I said it was at the time, even though I remember enjoying the game a great deal.

I think the venting "again and again and again" would be unnecessary if there was a stickied, dedicated thread for complaints and bug-reports.

You might think that, but you would be wrong. Go to the "complaint depot" instead of getting my own dedicated thread with its own title? I think not! And that's if most of those angry posters even *saw* the sticky thread.

 I think where constructive criticism is concerned, it helps to realise that the person doing it wants the game to be better, which is a blameless intention. They don't want to bring the developers down but bring the game up.

With constructive criticism, certainly. Constructive criticism is awesome. The mistake is assuming that any criticism is constructive. Some people are convinced that because they are RIGHT everyone should listen to them, and that if they aren't being listened to clearly what's called for is a more forceful declaration of how very RIGHT they are -- and constructiveness is thrown out the window. Constructiveness requires listening as well as speaking.

It is actually to the credit of the game if it draws that much criticism--games that are truly rubbish do not draw any, they aren't worth the bother. If someone takes the trouble to construct lengthy posts dissecting the games positive and negative points it's because they regard the game as redeemable and worth improving.

That is true, thankfully. I once said of a few of our more divisive characters (Aerie and then Aribeth, I think) that I'd much rather have people angry than apathetic. So I'm thankful that people are delighted enough with the game to complain about it -- but that doesn't mean I want to read through them day in and day out when I have better things I should be doing.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:41 .

[Kalcalan]

It all depends on the way you say it. Some people comment in very strong words and use expletives but all that anger can only prevent them from making their points.

It's not whining if you're being rational.

That being said I do agree that overpraising anyone without reason is rather pointless. Still, it's always interesting to have a dev's opinion on a topic like this.

[Ulyn]

It seems like the law of these sort of web forums these days that they live down to the WOW forum level.



In fact it's almost like there's more of a stigma about "fanboy" type behavior than there is about comic-book-guy style condescension towards the game creators, couched in terms of faintly constructive criticism.



It's a ludicrously good game; but the Penny Arcade Law (Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = complete &*(@&#$%) sets the tone for now.

[Mummolus]

For what it's worth, Mr Gaider, I appreciate the time Bioware employees put in on the forums. I've seen some of the nastier responses to you (and others) on these forums, and every time one pops up I can't help but remember a time when it was considered inappropriate for the developers, programmers and writers of games to interact with their public at all, let alone provide answers to questions and join discussions. I'm sincerely glad such times are long past for most, and since you're here, I'd appreciate any tips you could provide on how I could get Chris Priestly's job.

[BoostGeek]

I think it is a great game and BioWare did a good job as usual. There are certainly some bugs but name one RPG game that didn't. Look at when Fallout 3 was released it had a ton of bugs and way more crashes than DAO does. I'm really tired of reading all of the constant whining in this forum. They are obivously going to continue to fix the bugs and release new content. I'm happy and look forward to more DAO content.

[Rav2C]

David Gaider wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...
Actually, it's not their job. They may (and I believe they do) have a community liason or two, but it's certainly not David Gaider's job to come to the forums. Or Sheryl Chee's. Or any of the programmers. A lot of the devs really don't have any responsiblity to answer fans' and forum members' questions or comments. They do, and I'm sure some of their co-workers think they are crazy because of it.

That's correct. It's not our job. Chris Priestly is our community liaison, but even that doesn't make it his job to read through every thread and respond to your concerns (though I'm sure he does his best). Those of us that do come here do it because we enjoy interacting with the community, and because there's definite value to be had in getting some feedback.

That feedback isn't always enjoyable, however. Some people like to write it off as "it's the internet!" but that's a bit of a cop-out. That doesn't mean it's suddenly acceptable to speak to someone in a way that would get you punched in the face if you spoke to them like that in person, and it would take an incredible sense of entitlement to assume that anyone -- whether it's their job or not -- should sit there and listen to their much-vaunted opinion even when they can't be arsed to act in a reasonable fashion. Some people simply can't seperate their behavior from their opinions, and will automatically assume that if somone takes issue with them it must be the latter and not the former.

We do get it, even so. It all comes from a place of passion, but it can be a bit wearying trying to take it all in sometimes no matter how patient you might be. From my experience, it's like this on the forums right after release no matter what game it is. If you have visited the BG2 forums right after release you would have sworn it was the worst game in existence -- funny how people don't remember that after a while.

And that's fine, too. People don't go to the customer service section in a store to tell them how great they think the place is running -- that's just human nature. People come here to vent because they think someone will listen. And they'll vent again and again and again and again... because they're passionate, about RPG's even if not about DA. Understood, but, like I said, sometimes wearying. Sometimes it's just safer to read than to respond, and sometimes it's better just to walk away for a bit.

Anyway, now I've gone and written a long response when I didn't intend to. Ah, well. Return to your regularly scheduled... whatever.

Just to let you know, I'm at least having fun with DA:O. I almost missed out on the game but some folks told me I had to try it. I should have been paying more attention earlier on. I forgot a cardinal rule... don't bet against Bioware games as ever since Baldur's Gate, I've been having a blast playing and replaying all the Bioware games I've bought over the years (Jade Empire, BG & expansion, BG2 & expansion, Planscape, Icewind Dale, etc).

You guys keep making great games and I'll keep buying them. Just wish more game dev companies were more like Bioware. I've yet to have a problem with game quality, something I cannot say for games from other game dev houses.

[Aquarion]

Incidentally, you can find an RSS feed of DragonAgeCentral here: http://altru.istic.n...e=dragonagedevs

[Kolaris8472]

I think RPGs are the genre where its least necessary for devs to be active in the community, but I'm constantly amazed at all the 'BioWare' indicators beneath threads. Its...shocking, really, how many different devs read and post in the forums on a regular basis.

Compare this to, say, the devs/community managers for the popular RTS and FPS games I play where keeping the community informed of balance changes and bug fixes is important, and they don't even come close to the commitment I see from BW.

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:23 .

[David Gaider]

Ulyn wrote...
In fact it's almost like there's more of a stigma about "fanboy" type behavior than there is about comic-book-guy style condescension towards the game creators, couched in terms of faintly constructive criticism.

I would assume that's mostly the doing of those very same Comic Book Guys you speak of, accusing anyone who disagrees with them of empty-headed devotion to Bioware -- since someone who disagrees with Comic Book Guy's opinion *clearly* can't be thinking rationally, right? And what better way to derail someone's argument except to dismiss it with an ad hominem attack?

Certainly empty praise is no more constructive than empty criticism (if somewhat more pleasant to listen to, unless of course the very thought of anyone liking something you don't makes your Comic Book Guy blood boil), but just as all criticism isn't constructive so to is all praise not empty.

[BoostGeek]

I am certainly not a fanboy but I thoroughly enjoyed the game. I think you have to expect a certain number of bugs in an RPG game. Look at the number of bugs and hardware crashes Fallout 3 had. BioWare is fixing the bugs as fast as they can. I'm more sick of all of the whining and complaining players are making.

[BoostGeek]

My bad didn't mean to post again, the first time it didn't show my replay was created.

[Taritu]

The "would that get you punched in the face in real life" test is the one I used to use in deciding who to ban from places where that was my responsibility. As someone who writes for a living, much of it on the web, there are days when I don't read comments and there are days when I do. (There are also specific sites where I just don't read the comments.) Some days it's just more than I can take, other days I don't want to be drawn in. But I'd rather people cared enough to comment, then have no one talking at all. Screams are better than indifference.



The problem is when you start being unable to tell the constructive criticism from the screaming morons. And it does get to that twitch stage sometimes, at least for me.

[Varenus Luckmann]

David Gaider wrote...
[...]

If you have visited the BG2 forums right after release you would have sworn it was the worst game in existence.

[...]

BG1 was better.

[Varenus Luckmann]

David Gaider wrote...
I would assume that's mostly the doing of those very same Comic Book Guys you speak of, accusing anyone who disagrees with them of empty-headed devotion to Bioware -- since someone who disagrees with Comic Book Guy's opinion *clearly* can't be thinking rationally, right? And what better way to derail someone's argument except to dismiss it with an ad hominem attack?

Certainly empty praise is no more constructive than empty criticism (if somewhat more pleasant to listen to, unless of course the very thought of anyone liking something you don't makes your Comic Book Guy blood boil), but just as all criticism isn't constructive so to is all praise not empty.

In my opinion, it tends to be, though. Simply because it is much easier to point out what you feel is "off" or "wrong" about something, than to define what is "right". And definition is somewhat a necessity to stay constructive.

For example, I love the setting. I think that some things could've been made clearer or appear more fleshed-out, but immediatly when I start spinning on what I like about the setting, we'll invariably go into the territory about what I think could've been done in a better fashion - and suddently I'm a critic. Critique is a slippery slope. For example, I have a tendency to rip things apart completely or over-analyze, twist and turn. I tend to become vocal and can even be interpreted as obnoxious at times.

But make no mistake, the game is a gem. There's just very little point in analyzing the things you did right when we can focus on making it better. And we want to argue over what would make it better because we care. If we didn't argue or go frustrated over the things we dislike, that's when you really should start to get worried - because that'd mean that we were indifferent.

And indifference is so much worse than loathing.

[Jayce]

I've only been tempted to throw my computer out the window once, so Bioware are clearly doing something right.

[Bryy_Miller]

I give the devs that do come on here major props. When I was using The Movies for Machinima, their community liason was verbally abusive and a liar.

[quantumraider]

A big thanks to the DA:O team for taking time to respond to posts.



I, for one, can not understand how some people get so worked up that they start gibbering like monkeys up a tree and throwing "unmentionables" around the place.



Cruising for an early heart attack if you ask me

[David Gaider]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
But make no mistake, the game is a gem. There's just very little point in analyzing the things you did right when we can focus on making it better.

You don't think that positive reinforcement can be constructive?

I don't know, man. That's a little sad.

[Reiella]

David Gaider wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...
Actually, it's not their job. They may (and I believe they do) have a community liason or two, but it's certainly not David Gaider's job to come to the forums. Or Sheryl Chee's. Or any of the programmers. A lot of the devs really don't have any responsiblity to answer fans' and forum members' questions or comments. They do, and I'm sure some of their co-workers think they are crazy because of it.

That's correct. It's not our job. Chris Priestly is our community liaison, but even that doesn't make it his job to read through every thread and respond to your concerns (though I'm sure he does his best). Those of us that do come here do it because we enjoy interacting with the community, and because there's definite value to be had in getting some feedback.

And on the list of other things that aren't your job.

Improved Archdemon Fight, in the spirit of Demogorgon .

[Cpl_Facehugger]

David Gaider wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
But make no mistake, the game is a gem. There's just very little point in analyzing the things you did right when we can focus on making it better.

You don't think that positive reinforcement can be constructive?

I don't know, man. That's a little sad.

Well, if positive reinforcement can be constructive - The writing in this game was truly top notch. It's easily one of the best written games, storywise and characterwise, that I've ever played. Easily worth my $65 for the deluxe edition. In particular, you guys get major cool points for breaking some cliches with the elves and dwarves. Elves who actually have a valid reason for being xenophobic jerks and dwarves who don't all speak with a gruff scottish accent are very novel and interesting to me. The dwarf society venerating the best amongst them as leaders was also intriguing as well. 

So, keep up the good work, I guess? 

'Course, the game isn't totally perfect, I'm a little disappointed with the Warden's Keep and the lack of deathblow kills for nonstandard characters (Dog and especially Shale), and the lack of deathblow kills for ranged weapons like bows and staves. The only major story complaint I have is that you can't save Danyla or Danalya or whoever the elf turned werewolf is, even though the cure is only an hour or two away. If you just don't talk to her, she's gone when you end the curse.   I'd have liked the ability to say something like [Persuade]"Just hold on a little longer. I'm working with Zathrian to end the curse and return everyone to their normal forms." Unlike the other bitter decisions in the game, that's the only one I don't understand the reasoning behind, from a writing perspective. 

[DrakhanValane]

The benefits of positive reinforcement:



1) It encourages the Devs to make more of what you like! A happy Dev is a productive one. It works in every industry.



2) It lets them know what they did RIGHT. If all they hear is what was wrong, then they may nix your favourite feature because they didn't think it was enjoyable or worth the effort they put into it.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

David Gaider seriously impresses me by being on these forums as often as he does. In no other form of entertainment do I ever see such commitment to communication and interaction with the fans and community. Best thing I ever got was a form letter from a couple authors I wrote fan mail to. The fact that he's on here makes me want to buy the prequel books just to help support the bastard (though I hear they're pretty good, Idk though, it's about twenty dollars for the two of them both on kindle, should i go for it?)

Oh, BTW, game is great, the immersion level is excellent. It shows how incorporating that much detail into a new world really helps bring the game to life. Of course, there are bugs, due to the significant amount of complexity in the game, but it is not nearly as bad as some others, like KoTOR 2. Obsidian was making a good game, but the unfixed bugs and incompleteness really nerfed it in the end..

also, is it too much to ask for some prequel DLC/Expansion stuff. I want to play out some of these characters's pasts.

Modifié par Archdemon Cthulhu, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:14 .