91 réponses à ce sujet

[EricHVela]

I misread the title. I thought this was about thick-skinned dwarves. Imagine my initial confusion.

What was done right should not be ignored in the design for making things better. What all did you folks like? Hate? Miss? That's the stuff that helps. (Why is a good reason, too.) Still, raising criticism to a personal level is not helpful (for the person giving it or the person taking it).

I wish I could zoom out to the range of the mob's awareness in the strategic camera view and be able to make the camera look straight down as an option. The mobs were able to organize at a range beyond the strategic camera and objects often got in the way (especially when surrounded) that would be easier to see around from straight down. I do like being able to switch the camera view quickly.

[Krigwin]

If someone takes the time to post criticism, clearly they've felt the game is worth so much of their time that they're willing to go somewhere and talk about it, and that's gotta be a victory somehow. That, or they're just ranting which honestly there are better ways of doing than taking the time to find these forums and register their games and such.

I wouldn't think it's constructive though, I don't know how much influence writers like Mr. Gaider have over the actual gameplay and combat mechanics and such parts of the game, which is really what most of the criticism over DA:O is about, whereas the writing is pretty much universally praised, to the point where people are willing to make dissertation-length posts discussing it.

Particularly as this is the plot/campaign part of the forums.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Archdemon Cthulhu wrote...

it's about twenty dollars for the two of them both on kindle, should i go for it?)

No. Only because it's kindle. Kindle is for philistines. Real scholars and gentlemen read the dead tree version. 

[Saurel]

David Gaider wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
But make no mistake, the game is a gem. There's just very little point in analyzing the things you did right when we can focus on making it better.

You don't think that positive reinforcement can be constructive?

I don't know, man. That's a little sad.

Well focusing on the positive can have the effect of causing people to focus more on a specific area. So if those areas are good and one is encouraging that....I could see it having a good effect. Thus constructive... kind of like saying "I really like what you did with this quest" could result in more quests in a similar vein...potentially.


At least it was that way in Art School critiques...not the same thing but :happy:

[Acemath]

Why do people always complain about games?I mean:My games runs like **** on my pc,probably there are bugs,probably mages are overpowered,dex.fix didn't fix anything,Arrow of Slaying is Epic,not enough robes,Epic weapons...You name it,but EVERY friggin bug known to mankind is already been mentioned on these boards.But you know what?I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS...Why?I love the game,and i'm already hoping for a sequel.And that's enough of me to keep playing the game,AND accept it's not flawless..?Maybe you guys need to get of your high horses and TRY to accept that games are still made by humans,and humans can make mistakes...

Modifié par Acemath, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[Null]

There will always be whiners, you will never please 100% of the fanbase... The game is not perfect by any stretch, but it is a very solid experience and well executed. This game has only been out for a month and I'm on my third playthrough, I've poured a little over 120+ hours into this game, I think I got my money's worth and then some, I thought I would finish it once and then that was it, I was wrong.



I want more, I'll probably order the novels.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Archdemon Cthulhu wrote...

it's about twenty dollars for the two of them both on kindle, should i go for it?)

No. Only because it's kindle. Kindle is for philistines. Real scholars and gentlemen read the dead tree version. 

Kindle is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me.  My only complaint is that on a couple occasions Amazon has overcharged on their kindle store, but for the most part they've been fair.  You may be skeptical due to the horrid amount of grammar mistakes in my posts, but I'm actually about to receive a degree in English and Creative Writing with a 3.7 GPA.  SO therefore I am one of these supposed "real" scholars, and I think the Kindle is incredibly convenient, good for avoiding the waste of paper, and helps to make all public domain content portable and free to all.  

So screw dead tree versions...unless they're priced cheaper, ahem.

[CarlSpackler]

Here's some (hopefully) constructive praise - the characters were the best written and most interesting en masse I've encountered in a video game. Even digging back into my nostalgia years of gaming for which no modern game has any hope of supplanting, I cannot think of a game with as many well-defined characters replete with such excellent VO. In fact I think there may have even been an uncanny valley effect in terms of the writing. These NPCs seemed so real that when they didn't interject, or when they ran out of things to say it nearly "broke my immersion" so to speak. (That phrase bothers me, but I guess its accurate.)



Still, the amount of dialogue and VO in the game was staggering, I'm sure awarding companion dialogue to every permutation of quest choice would have been ridiculous. And yet DAO achieved such a level of character realism for myself that it made such a lofty goal seem like the next bar to try and clear. So to all the devs involved with DA, thanks again for a great game. And to writers in particular (seeing as how David is prowling this thread) thanks for aiming high with this game, here’s to hoping you’l be given the opportunity to aim even higher with the next game.

[kevinwastaken]

People exaggerate their claims to get their point across. At least they think they are getting their point across, but just like in real life when you exaggerate it destroys your credibility.

[Zeke01231]

Ive been a gamer for 30+ years and this might be my favorite game...Bioware has had some Doozies Jade Empire KOTOR Baldurs gate ME.. I loved them all but this has been a storytelling masterpiece with excellent game mechanics..I generally dont play games through more than once Im probably going to play this through three times at a minimum and I have been there done that so much that maybe out of the 10 or so games I buy a year I truly enjoy 1... So thank you for this gem it has been an absolute blast to play and Im sure I will be purchasing every DLC you graciously produce.

Modifié par Zeke01231, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:05 .

[fro7k]

I think negative feedback would hurt more if the devs expected an overwhelmingly positive response to the game after all the effort they put in.  There are no doubt things in the game big and small that they're very proud of, and nobody talks about them nearly as much as the faults, or worse, finds fault with those things!  I can definitely see that as a possibility.  And so I can see how negative feedback could be morale-crushing.

The title of this thread has the answer: "thick-skinned".  I would dismiss equally both praise and criticism that is poorly constructed or doesn't state reasons for why it thinks what it thinks.  I would respect feedback both positive and negative that comes from a place that ultimately respects the game and its creators.

I would try to sort the facts from the opinions: for instance, there is little respect in which a bug can be considered not to be bad, but other things can be dismissed as a matter of taste and preference.  For instance, I think BG2 superior to DA:O on the grounds that it was very oriented around large side-quests that were not connected to the main story, whereas another person may prefer DA:O on the very same grounds, i.e. that it is more focused on the main story.  The devs made it one way and not the other for a reason, so you could easily disregard criticism that offers this reason for why it criticises since they consciously chose not to make the game that way

Incidentally, the REASON why I prefer BG on this ground is that, psychologically, it moves the goalpost further away--each quest solved unrelated to the main story mentally puts distance between me and the end of the game and makes it last longer--conversely, each quest solved that is related to the story brings the end visibly closer (although this is illusory if I am going to explore all content anyway)--and ironically it's to DA:O's credit that I can criticise it for this reason, since it implies that I want it to last longer.

I would try to view negative feedback as material for making the game better.  If nobody points out holes in the ******, it is going to leak all the same.  It's down to the dev's' discretion as to whether a hole is a hole or not, and then what to do about it  (I know, not the best metaphor).

David Gaider wrote...

With constructive criticism, certainly. Constructive criticism is awesome. The mistake is assuming that any criticism is constructive. Some people are convinced that because they are RIGHT everyone should listen to them, and that if they aren't being listened to clearly what's called for is a more forceful declaration of how very RIGHT they are -- and constructiveness is thrown out the window. Constructiveness requires listening as well as speaking.

I assume you're speaking generally, rather than consumers giving feedback on the forum. In the latter case the devs would necessarily be predominantly in the role of listener.  But I'm listening, if you could make use of it.

RunCDFirst wrote...

They do, and I'm sure some of their co-workers think they are crazy because of it.

Is it taboo or something?

Modifié par fro7k, 04 décembre 2009 - 06:28 .

[borelocin]

David Gaider wrote...

fro7k wrote...

If you have visited the BG2 forums right after release you would have sworn it was the worst game in existence

How could anyone think that.

Like I said, people forget. In the first while on the BG2 forums after release, chances are that 90% of the posts you would have seen on the front page would have read like this: "Too many bugs!" "BG2 doesn't follow D&D rules exactly!" "You screwed up on the lore!" "How dare you treat us female gamers unfairly!" "Mages are too powerful!" "classes are unbalanced!" "Game was boring/disappointing - here's why" "Should have been more like BG"

...and so forth and so forth. It's kind of funny how these days you'll get people swearing up and down that there's no nostalgia involved in how they remember BG2 -- because they assume notalgia is a bad thing, I guess? It's human nature. You forget the bad parts and remember the good. Someone had to remind me recently at how bitterly I complained about some of the things in Fallout 2 and how buggy I said it was at the time, even though I remember enjoying the game a great deal.

I think the venting "again and again and again" would be unnecessary if there was a stickied, dedicated thread for complaints and bug-reports.

You might think that, but you would be wrong. Go to the "complaint depot" instead of getting my own dedicated thread with its own title? I think not! And that's if most of those angry posters even *saw* the sticky thread.

 I think where constructive criticism is concerned, it helps to realise that the person doing it wants the game to be better, which is a blameless intention. They don't want to bring the developers down but bring the game up.

With constructive criticism, certainly. Constructive criticism is awesome. The mistake is assuming that any criticism is constructive. Some people are convinced that because they are RIGHT everyone should listen to them, and that if they aren't being listened to clearly what's called for is a more forceful declaration of how very RIGHT they are -- and constructiveness is thrown out the window. Constructiveness requires listening as well as speaking.

It is actually to the credit of the game if it draws that much criticism--games that are truly rubbish do not draw any, they aren't worth the bother. If someone takes the trouble to construct lengthy posts dissecting the games positive and negative points it's because they regard the game as redeemable and worth improving.

That is true, thankfully. I once said of a few of our more divisive characters (Aerie and then Aribeth, I think) that I'd much rather have people angry than apathetic. So I'm thankful that people are delighted enough with the game to complain about it -- but that doesn't mean I want to read through them day in and day out when I have better things I should be doing.

Now it is fashionable to remember BG2 as a classic of the medium.

Just for a giggle dug up the archived forums for BG2 - oddly enough I can't find the "the gold standard for CRPGs" anywhere. Not QUITE as bad as David might have remembered but not too bloody far off.   

http://forums.biowar...topics=&sp=7150

He might not remember having Bhaalpowers either !

http://forums.biowar...=6404&forum=107

Modifié par borelocin, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[phordicus]

hmm, perhaps i'm more jaded but it's very similar in the mod communities except even worse as the modders don't have the "it's their job -- they're getting paid" part to dilute the vitriol.



still, it's nice that the devs get the benefit of the community's free advice

[Sable Phoenix]

Re: Empty praise

Call it empty praise if you will, Mr. Gaider, but you and your fellow writers have outdone yourselves with this game. The depth of the story options, the difficulty of the decisions, and the absolute genius stroke of having multiple origins that alter the way the game unfolds render Dragon Age a work of art.

I honestly can't think of anything to complain about, and can't understand why other players would spend time complaining about it either, not when they have so many options to make things unfold the way they want.  I'm just in mild awe at the final product.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 04 décembre 2009 - 11:30 .

[Kreidian]

 Well the fact that the devs post here just shows you how much they enjoy wasting their time when they should be at their desks working on new DLCs for us!

I KID! I KID!

Considering how much times I've spent at work posting on forums that would be too much of a Kettle-Pot situation, to be honest.

Truth be told however I've been on both sides of the game forums through my career and no matter what you do or how hard you try there will always be someone who will want to complain about something. It used to bother me but these days I've come to realize that you aren't doing something right if nobody complains at all.

Still I find the amount of great praise for the Devs in these forums is a testament to what a great job you've done. And this isn't empty praise either, it might be hard to understand because rather then direct praise people instead talk about personal experiences they've had in the game and how it has affected them. For something to affect people so deeply that they would post about their experiences in that way is a truly sincere praise if I've ever seen one.

[SeanMurphy2]

I whinge on the forums occasionally.

Be proud of what you have achieved. Think back to 2003 when none of it existed. You were sitting in front of blank piece of paper and throwing around ideas. It is now a 60-80 hour RPG classic that a lot of people are still enjoying and talking about a month after release. (A lot of messageboards I visit have a long active Dragon Age thread)

You also overcame a lot of design challenges. You introduced the origin concept, got rid of the morality meter and had more divergent outcomes for the story and each character. You also built the setting, engine and ruleset from scratch,

The characters were consistently high quality, memorable and complex. I would never have thought that Mary and Cheryl were writing their first game.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 04 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[Marvin TPA]

A bit of constructive praise.

This game has the best save game system I have seen on any game in any genre.The fact is that it is so good you don't notice it at all.



Its nice on this thread; like an oasis of reasonable calm.

[Valmy]

fro7k wrote...

How could anyone think that.

Lots of people did.  Both BG games got hammered by alot of people and you know what?  Most of their criticism was about legitimate issues.  They tended, then as now, to rather get a bit hyperbolic about the impact of those issues though.  Same for this game.  Much of what people complain about DA:O is true...and can be improved upon...but it doesn't stop it from being an awesome game that will be enjoyed for years to come just like BG and BG2 were.

[slackbheep]

In the vein of constructive criticism:

Without a doubt my favorite part of DA:O was the story and writing. Battles could have been resolved via a game of Hangman and I still would have forsaken sleep to find out what happens next. I can think of no piece of fiction that has affected me so, since I was a young teen discovering Dragonlance novels, and AD&D. Truth be told, it was about a week after I beat DA:O before I found the energy to play another game.



I can offer no higher reccomendation for a story, than to say it left me so emotionally drained that it was days before I felt myself again. Few literary greats have managed to strike me so.

[Chragen]

Things might come out as whining, but I think most of us who are on this forums is here because we really enjoyed Dragon Age.



But it's still possible to really love a game and still make criticism. Even though it might not be the most constructive in the world. Though I can totally understand that devs might feel like it's a slap in the face when people come and say "Loved the game, but you could have done X Y Z better" '



It's easy to come up with ideas, but from the little I understand of the industry, any change in the game takes a long time. So at some point you just have to commit to what you got planned and go through with it. If they went back and redesigned everything to make it absolutely perfect we probably wouldn't have seen the game for another 5 years.



But I'm nothing but optimistic about the future of the Dragon Age universe and I really hope that they will make it even better.

[Ferret A Baudoin]

It does take a thick skin. Most of us have dedicated years to the project - so criticism can be painful. But you need to hear it to learn and grow. Even when you wouldn't change what you did or do in the future (because you can't please everyone) it can be good mental exercise reevaluating those decisions. Generally, though, there are more good folks than bad - and more smiles than speed dial calls to ninja assassins.

Modifié par Ferret A Baudoin, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:33 .

[Archonsg]

Oh I remember BG2 faults, and I was probably one of those who were posting endlessly to get things fixed. Who can forget romance bugs, banter bugs that would freeze / crash the game just as you are about to enter combat and other really weird stuff that made me at times want to head butt my 15' CRT monitor. (ahh the good bad old days!)
Still, it must be said that most of us who played the game (bg1-2) from its release, simply loved the game because at the time it was the rare gem of a game that had NPCs whom felt alive with bucket loads of character (who could forget Minsc Boo and Edwin?) and all that coupled with an amazing story.
Fast forward to today, players are re-introduced to in game banter, which in my opinion, gives your Non Player Characters, character and are just as delighted as those of us "old timers" to see it all come back a full circle. Look at some of the threads on this forum, a great many deal with how the NPCs interact with the world, with each other as well as with the PC. While I'll never replace Minsc with Oghren, Viconia with Morrigan or Aerie with Lelianna (well maybe with Lelianna ) I am glad to see the game to have just the same impact when I played the BG series.

Write a good tale, make your characters memorable, make us care about them but most of all, make them feel alive. That is the one thing I have come to expect and hope to see in all Bioware games, characters that feel alive and part of the world you allow us to play in.

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[tigrina]

Chragen wrote...
But it's still possible to really love a game and still make criticism. Even though it might not be the most constructive in the world. Though I can totally understand that devs might feel like it's a slap in the face when people come and say "Loved the game, but you could have done X Y Z better" 

Well, the titles in this forum with "[x] sucks!" can't be called constructive criticism in the slightest imho. Since I usually skip those myself, I can imagine any BW dev doing the forums because, well, in a way enjoy it, skip those too. The version you describe is a lot easier to digest.