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[izmirtheastarach]

TeenZombie wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I guess we disagree on the interpretation of that part of the book. Fiona says she will never have to undergo the Calling. So the progress of the taint has been stopped. But if the taint was gone entirely, how would she even be a Grey Warden?

Either way, this doesn't actually have anything to do with the question at hand. My poist is, why would David Gaider include that child's conception in the book if it was not Alistair?

Fiona says that the taint has vanished, and she will never undergo the Calling again.  That seems pretty clear.  She may not technically be a Grey Warden anymore, but she's still a part of the organization, and they wanted to send her back to Weisshaupt for observation, which is reasonable.  She also may now be immune to the taint, which would be interesting for the Grey Wardens too.

Obviously, Fiona's child was included to stir speculation about Alistair's parentage.  I do hope that it does one day get cleared up, and isn't in fact a red herring.

Again, if she's now taint-free, why would she even care about going back? Why wouldn't she stay with Maric? The taint is the reason becoming a Grey Warden is permanant.

[RunCDFirst]

Galad22 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...
The child of an elf and a human is born human.

Why the hell?

Is being elf or human some sort of genetic trait in this world, and human is the dominant one like brown eyes in our world.

If so that is incredible lame.

I don't know, in modern times a human can give birth to someone with dwarfism. Think of the different races like the wide spread of certain shared genetic traits than actual different species.

[Badpie]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...
I would say according to David Gaider, Alistair is the child of Maric and Fiona. Otherwise, what is the point of including that last segment of the book?

David has said that Fiona may or may not be Alistiar's mother. Even though he's been asked on several occations, he's said that it's up to fans to speculate.

Personally, I don't think Fiona is Alistiar's mother. For one thing, Loghian says that Alistiar was born while Rowan was still alive, while the events of the Calling happened after her death.

Can you point to a quote from Gaider on that? I find that very interesting. The certainly makes it sound like the inconsistancy is deliberate. If that's the case, I would tend to agree with you. Seems likely he left it unsaid so he could develop it later. If it was Alistair, why not reveal that in the game.

That is interesting.  I'm starting to hope that Fiona/Maric's child is someone ELSE and that Alistair really is the son of that servant girl.  Seems like kind of a big thing to simply overlook if you're the writer.  I'm guessing it was intentional - the timing I mean - the fact that Alistair was born while Rowan was alive.

Also, the whole servant girl/ Alistair thing makes a lot of sense, especially when you involve Goldanna.  The servant woman died giving birth as I recall and then they paid up for Goldanna to keep her mouth shut about Maric (who is obviously NOT Goldanna's father) yes? 

[MBirkhofer]

Badpie wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...
I would say according to David Gaider, Alistair is the child of Maric and Fiona. Otherwise, what is the point of including that last segment of the book?

David has said that Fiona may or may not be Alistiar's mother. Even though he's been asked on several occations, he's said that it's up to fans to speculate.

Personally, I don't think Fiona is Alistiar's mother. For one thing, Loghian says that Alistiar was born while Rowan was still alive, while the events of the Calling happened after her death.

Can you point to a quote from Gaider on that? I find that very interesting. The certainly makes it sound like the inconsistancy is deliberate. If that's the case, I would tend to agree with you. Seems likely he left it unsaid so he could develop it later. If it was Alistair, why not reveal that in the game.

That is interesting.  I'm starting to hope that Fiona/Maric's child is someone ELSE and that Alistair really is the son of that servant girl.  Seems like kind of a big thing to simply overlook if you're the writer.  I'm guessing it was intentional - the timing I mean - the fact that Alistair was born while Rowan was alive.

Also, the whole servant girl/ Alistair thing makes a lot of sense, especially when you involve Goldanna.  The servant woman died giving birth as I recall and then they paid up for Goldanna to keep her mouth shut about Maric (who is obviously NOT Goldanna's father) yes? 

Yes, the arguement that they paid Goldanna off, to say she was paid off 25 years ago is really flaky.  Its so needlessly complex that its not really believable.

I'm leaning on 3rd son.  and daughter mind you, if Morrigan is his too...

In terms of planning.  Cailen dies.  Alister may or may not die.   3rd son can be Maric's legacy for Dragonage2:Burnination.

Modifié par MBirkhofer, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:51 .

[syllogi]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Again, if she's now taint-free, why would she even care about going back? Why wouldn't she stay with Maric? The taint is the reason becoming a Grey Warden is permanant.

I don't recall Maric ever inviting her to stay with him, but even if he had, maybe she takes her oath to the Grey Wardens seriously, even without the threat of the taint?  From what I remember, Fiona had a really bad childhood in the alienage, and probably considers the Grey Wardens her true family now.  Anyone who willingly joins the Grey Wardens does so without knowing about the taint, and she may be one of those people who considers it an honor and privilege.

Besides, if she wasn't a Grey Warden, she'd have to go to the Circle of Magi, where they'd take her son away from her anyway . . . I'm sure she preferred to let Maric help her find a place for him.

[Mesecina]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...
I would say according to David Gaider, Alistair is the child of Maric and Fiona. Otherwise, what is the point of including that last segment of the book?

David has said that Fiona may or may not be Alistiar's mother. Even though he's been asked on several occations, he's said that it's up to fans to speculate.

Personally, I don't think Fiona is Alistiar's mother. For one thing, Loghian says that Alistiar was born while Rowan was still alive, while the events of the Calling happened after her death.

Can you point to a quote from Gaider on that? I find that very interesting. The certainly makes it sound like the inconsistancy is deliberate. If that's the case, I would tend to agree with you. Seems likely he left it unsaid so he could develop it later. If it was Alistair, why not reveal that in the game.

http://social.biowar...152461/1#152577

Assuming that the child from the book
and Alistair are, indeed, one and the same... yes, Goldanna wouldn't
have really been his sister. She would have been the daughter of the
maid who died in childbirth, and Goldanna likely was unaware that her
mother's baby also died and that Alistair is indeed of no relation to
her.

Assuming that he isn't actually the maid's child, of course.

I wish we could leave the half-elf theme out this time because there's like 5 threads going into great details with epic wars being fought inside already and you can totally bring it there

[izmirtheastarach]

All right, so that pretty much confirms it for me. Gaider is leaving himself open to taking to one way or the other. Doesn't tell us which way he intends to take it, but at least that's a bit of a hint. How coy of him.

[tigrina]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

All right, so that pretty much confirms it for me. Gaider is leaving himself open to taking to one way or the other. Doesn't tell us which way he intends to take it, but at least that's a bit of a hint. How coy of him.

Well, the time line issue got me totally confused here. Seems like the writer(s) decided it is too much fun to watch the speculation. Since I didn't take Loghain yet, I didn't know Alistair is supposed to be around before The Calling actually.

Thanks for the link and thoughts btw.

[RazorNightngale]

I'm just going to copy and paste what I wrote in another post



If you do the math, it is highly unlikely that Alistair is Fiona's baby. The Calling takes place eleven years after the Orlesians are kicked out of Ferelden. So boys and girls what is 30-11? A NINETEEN year old! And if you figure in that a woman carries a baby for nine months there is a good chance that the baby is only actually 18.



Now Alistair is immature, naive, and a virgin. But he is older than that, I would say at least 23 or 24. That's why being a virgin is brought up when you talk to Alistair, it's funny that he is an adult who has never got any. Not as funny if he's a kid.



Also if he was just switched with a random baby at Redcliff, how would Goldanna have known that he was the king's baby? Did they say "Oh, while we chuck your dead baby brother into the lake can you hold THE KING'S baby that we're going to say is actually your mom's kid. Sorry that she died and everything."



And the whole being hidden away from Rowan thing? I'm sure that even Alistair could figure out that if she had been dead two years, that he didn't need to be hidden away FROM her. Or did Eamon think it would be funny to burst in Alistair's room in the middle of the night dressed in a old sheet saying, "Oooooooo, I am the ghost of Rowan! You must staaaay hidden! Ooooo!"



So, in my opinion (which is worthless when it comes to the mighty power of David Gaider) Alistair is not the baby at the end of the Calling. I hope that we do end up meeting that kid though (I love all the Theirins). I think having another son around could be a great plot line for an expansion. He could solve the whole "heir" problem if your PC was a human noble or give Alistair a good reason to give up the throne and go back to frolicking in the wilderness as a Grey Warden or just as another reason to kick Anora's commoner butt off the throne.



Hmm, what if they made him a villain?

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

Third Child? Villain for second game? Maybe? No? Okay, I'll be quiet.

[Mesecina]

RazorNightngale wrote...

I'm just going to copy and paste what I wrote in another post

If you do the math, it is highly unlikely that Alistair is Fiona's baby. The Calling takes place eleven years after the Orlesians are kicked out of Ferelden. So boys and girls what is 30-11? A NINETEEN year old! And if you figure in that a woman carries a baby for nine months there is a good chance that the baby is only actually 18.

I might be wrong here so feel free to correct me if I am but as far as I'm aware we're never given exact year of ingame events. Yes it's mentioned that they drove Orlesians out 30 years ago but that doesn't have to mean it was exactly 30 years - it could mean it was 34 or even 28 so the age of that baby is in my opinion by no account fixed.

Also if he was just switched with a random baby at Redcliff, how would Goldanna have known that he was the king's baby? Did they say "Oh, while we chuck your dead baby brother into the lake can you hold THE KING'S baby that we're going to say is actually your mom's kid. Sorry that she died and everything."

And the whole being hidden away from Rowan thing? I'm sure that even Alistair could figure out that if she had been dead two years, that he didn't need to be hidden away FROM her. Or did Eamon think it would be funny to burst in Alistair's room in the middle of the night dressed in a old sheet saying, "Oooooooo, I am the ghost of Rowan! You must staaaay hidden! Ooooo!"

It could be that Goldanna saw Maric coming to talk to her mother about the arrangement to take care of his child and Goldanna would of course assume he was the father of the child.

As for being hidden from Rowan I don't think Aistair or Eamon ever mention something like that, it's just Loghain and Loghain hasn't exactly been around Maric that much in those times and is for all we knoe not really that reliable source of info.

As I mentioned before I highly doubt someone like Eamon would agree to hiding Maric's proof of infidelity from his own sister.

Also why would Duncan be the appointed babysitter for all Maric's bastard sons? I could think of more appropriate person for the job than ex-murderer + die hard Gray Warden. We know he was supposed to keep an eye on Fiona's baby however.

Modifié par Mesecina, 04 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[tigrina]

RazorNightngale wrote...

I'm just going to copy and paste what I wrote in another post

If you do the math, it is highly unlikely that Alistair is Fiona's baby. The Calling takes place eleven years after the Orlesians are kicked out of Ferelden. So boys and girls what is 30-11? A NINETEEN year old! And if you figure in that a woman carries a baby for nine months there is a good chance that the baby is only actually 18.

Now Alistair is immature, naive, and a virgin. But he is older than that, I would say at least 23 or 24. That's why being a virgin is brought up when you talk to Alistair, it's funny that he is an adult who has never got any. Not as funny if he's a kid.

Ah thanks for posting this. Now I am wondering if Cailan or Alistair was the older one though. Any thoughts?

[DarkSpiral]

tigrina wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...
The child of an elf and a human is born human.

Why the hell?

Is being elf or human some sort of genetic trait in this world, and human is the dominant one like brown eyes in our world.

If so that is incredible lame.

I totally fail to see how this bit of game lore is lame, but you can find a bit about it here: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elves

<sarcasm>
Oh, that's easy.  It's lame because it has the unmitigated gall to not be a carbon copy of Dungeons and Dragons.  Or Tolkien.  The gods forbid things like putting personal spins on old favorite fantasy elements, afterall.
</sarcasm>

[Badpie]

Okay, thanks everybody for this discussion. I am inclined to believe the following based on your speculations:



- Cailen is older than Alistair. Alistair is somewhere between 22 and 25.

- Alistair is not Fiona's child, but IS actually the child of the servant.

- There is another Therin sibling floating around somewhere.



I'll just cling to this since it makes sense until the mighty Gaider says otherwise. Hehehe.

[RazorNightngale]

Mesecina wrote...

RazorNightngale wrote...

I'm just going to copy and paste what I wrote in another post

If you do the math, it is highly unlikely that Alistair is Fiona's baby. The Calling takes place eleven years after the Orlesians are kicked out of Ferelden. So boys and girls what is 30-11? A NINETEEN year old! And if you figure in that a woman carries a baby for nine months there is a good chance that the baby is only actually 18.

I might be wrong here so feel free to correct me if I am but as far as I'm aware we're never given exact year of ingame events. Yes it's mentioned that they drove Orlesians out 30 years ago but that doesn't have to mean it was exactly 30 years - it could mean it was 34 or even 28 so the age of that baby is in my opinion by no account fixed.

Also if he was just switched with a random baby at Redcliff, how would Goldanna have known that he was the king's baby? Did they say "Oh, while we chuck your dead baby brother into the lake can you hold THE KING'S baby that we're going to say is actually your mom's kid. Sorry that she died and everything."

And the whole being hidden away from Rowan thing? I'm sure that even Alistair could figure out that if she had been dead two years, that he didn't need to be hidden away FROM her. Or did Eamon think it would be funny to burst in Alistair's room in the middle of the night dressed in a old sheet saying, "Oooooooo, I am the ghost of Rowan! You must staaaay hidden! Ooooo!"

It could be that Goldanna saw Maric coming to talk to her mother about the arrangement to take care of his child and Goldanna would of course assume he was the father of the child.

As for being hidden from Rowan I don't think Aistair or Eamon ever mention something like that, it's just Loghain and Loghain hasn't exactly been around Maric that much in those times and is for all we knoe not really that reliable source of info.

As I mentioned before I highly doubt someone like Eamon would agree to hiding Maric's proof of infidelity from his own sister.

Also why would Duncan be the appointed babysitter for all Maric's bastard sons? I could think of more appropriate person for the job than ex-murderer + die hard Gray Warden. We know he was supposed to keep an eye on Fiona's baby however.

I'm going backwards

1) We never find out who told Duncan about Alistair's heritage.  It could have been Maric who wanted the Grey Warden to watch over them (ex-murderer being a moot point  Maric trusted Duncan and they were friends).  It also could have been the Revered Mother, who remember threw a huge fit when Duncan recruited Alistair.  It didn't occur becuase Alistair was such a model apprentice templar.  But it makes sense that she didn't want to lose a potiental political pawn.  Or maybe it was Cailan and Anora.  They knew about Alistair, knew that he was threat to the throne, and there rumors flying around about Anora being barren.  I think Cailan wanted to protect Alistair (just in case) which is why he had Alistair sent to the tower at Ostagar.  Anora on the other hand was hoping the hand that either the joining would kill him (she knew about that little fact when the issue of having Loghain join comes up) or he would die fighting. 

2) Eamon hiding Alistair.  It is Alistair who says that he was hidden from the queen (and I think Loghain says the same thing). But even Alistair is logical enough to figure out that if Rowan had died two years before he was born (if he was Fiona's baby).  It's not difficult math to figure out that if the queen died in 3:9 and the baby was born in 3:11 there would be no reason to hide him from her!  Yes, these dates are speculative, but the logic stays the same.

As for Eamon hiding Alistair, it makes sense to me.  Eamon loves his family and would want to protect them.  By being the one in charge of Alistair he could be the one who controlled the information.  He could make sure that some power-hungry noble didn't swoop in and try to put Alistair on the throne.  Or even as simple as making sure some gossipy maid didn't let the information slip to Rowan.  Maric would know this and knew that Eamon wouldn't gain anything by using Alistair as a political pawn (yes, yes this is a big issue).  

3) This is part that always kills the whole Fiona's baby is Alistair theory that people keep on throwing around.  It is just too much of a concidence that there was maid at Redcliff who pregnant and they made this whole arrangement with her and blah blah blah.  If Rowan was dead (as in The Calling) why would they pick Redcliff?  Why not a nice family of farmers in the middle of nowhere who have absolutely  no connection to the throne?  If they made the arrangement before the maid gave birth, what were they going to do with her baby if it lived?  Give that one to the afformention nice family of farmers?  And how did Maric even know about the pregnant maid in Redcliff (unless he was the daddy?).  Do all the arls gossip like little old ladies at the Landsmeets? 

And if it was Fiona who picked out a hiding spot (which she hints at the end of The Calling IIRC) how would she have known?  More than likely she found a place in Orlais.  

4) My math.  We do know that the game takes place in 9:30.  That's been stated by Devs, in the game, in the guides, etc.  We also know that the war ended around 9:00 (no offical date, but every source always give puts as 9:00) with offical peace in 9:20.  So maybe the baby is actually 20 or maybe he's only 12.  All we do know is that he is way too young to be Alistair.

[ETSubmariner]

Book? What book? A real book I can pick up and read, or a codex entry?

[Herr Uhl]

ETSubmariner wrote...

Book? What book? A real book I can pick up and read, or a codex entry?

There are two books, the stolen throne and the calling. They are referring to the latter.

[dan107]

David posted this timeline on the old forums a while back:



8:97 Blessed - the beginning of the Stolen Throne

8:99 Blessed - the Battle of River Dane

9:02 Dragon - the rebellion ends, Maric is coronated

9:04 Dragon - Cailan is born

9:16 Dragon - the Stolen Throne's epilogue

9:30 Dragon - Dragon Age: Origins begins



It's stated in The Calling that it takes place 8 years after the end of Orlesian rule, making it 9:10 Dragon.



The child from The Calling would be conceived in 9:10 so that would make him 19-20. I always thought that that was Alistair, but people have made some damn good arguments against it in this thread. I'm starting to think that he probably wasn't.



The only people who would've know about the child from The Calling and his parentage are Maric, Fiona, and Duncan. Would've been pretty easy to hide completely. Certainly no reason to bring in Loghain, Arl Eamon, and Goldanna into the picture.

[Valmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Personally, I don't think Fiona is Alistiar's mother. For one thing, Loghian says that Alistiar was born while Rowan was still alive, while the events of the Calling happened after her death.

That and I got the impression The Calling was too close chronologically to the game for Alistair to be old enough.

[Valmy]

ETSubmariner wrote...

Book? What book? A real book I can pick up and read, or a codex entry?

A real book.  David Gaider has written two novels set in the Dragon Age universe.

[Ariella]

[quote]RazorNightngale wrote...



3) This is part that always kills the whole Fiona's baby is Alistair theory that people keep on throwing around.  It is just too much of a concidence that there was maid at Redcliff who pregnant and they made this whole arrangement with her and blah blah blah.  If Rowan was dead (as in The Calling) why would they pick Redcliff?  Why not a nice family of farmers in the middle of nowhere who have absolutely  no connection to the throne?  If they made the arrangement before the maid gave birth, what were they going to do with her baby if it lived?  Give that one to the afformention nice family of farmers?  And how did Maric even know about the pregnant maid in Redcliff (unless he was the daddy?).  Do all the arls gossip like little old ladies at the Landsmeets? 
[/quote]

Who said it was arranged with the woman? I'm willing to bet money that they would have found SOME excuse for how the babe got into Eamon's hands, that a serving maid died of child birth with her child just made it easy, amnd remember it wasn't Eamon who told Alistair. Alistair did some checking himself and assumed that this maid who died was his mother.

As for Goldanna, who knows? It possible she saw something that made her THINK it was the king, but never had any real proof. She seemed like a troublsome wench and I'm not surprised she was driven off. She and my sister would get along wonderfully.

[quote]

And if it was Fiona who picked out a hiding spot (which she hints at the end of The Calling IIRC) how would she have known?  More than likely she found a place in Orlais.  
[/quote]

Considering that A) Duncan promised to watch over the boy and was second in command of the Wardens in Fereldan.... who would look for Maric's bastard in the court of the brother of his late wife? That's the last place anyone whould expect Fiona to place her child.


4) My math.  We do know that the game takes place in 9:30.  That's been stated by Devs, in the game, in the guides, etc.  We also know that the war ended around 9:00 (no offical date, but every source always give puts as 9:00) with offical peace in 9:20.  So maybe the baby is actually 20 or maybe he's only 12.  All we do know is that he is way too young to be Alistair.
[/quote]

How is 20 way to young to be Alistar? And Alistar was concieved before the official peace, because according to Levi, the Wardens came around 20 years ago to Maric, but the First Enchanter's plot involved the Emperor of Orais, who isn't the one who made true peace with Fereldan, that was the new Empress.

[LdyShayna]

dan107 wrote...
The only people who would've know about the child from The Calling and his parentage are Maric, Fiona, and Duncan. Would've been pretty easy to hide completely. Certainly no reason to bring in Loghain, Arl Eamon, and Goldanna into the picture.

They would have a reason if Maric decided to keep him as an ace in the hole, in case the worst happened.  Goldanna and her mother would need to be set up to abide by Fiona's wishes yet also give the child a nice, "normal" human parentage.   Loghain and Arl Eamon would know just enough to support the child's claim (if necessary), but at the same time would be trusted not to use him to advance themselves.

I also do not think it's too much of a coincidence that there was a maid SOMEWHERE that was pregnant about the same time.  There's nothing that says that they were only looking in Redcliffe, and I'm sure either Duncan or some royal intelligence network could find out VERY quickly, as such things would hardly be secret or rare.

I will say that I have never heard Alistair say that he was hidden from Rowan, and that would definitely make me seriously reconsider.  Does anyone know what dialog you can get that from?

And no, I don't trust Loghain to be honest about such things to my PC, nor do I believe he knows all of the details anyway.  Heh.

[dan107]

LdyShayna wrote...
I will say that I have never heard Alistair say that he was hidden from Rowan, and that would definitely make me seriously reconsider.  Does anyone know what dialog you can get that from?

I have some vague recollections of that being mentioned by either Alistair or Eamon in Redcliffe. Not 100% sure on this though.

[RazorNightngale]

dan107 wrote...

David posted this timeline on the old forums a while back:

8:97 Blessed - the beginning of the Stolen Throne
8:99 Blessed - the Battle of River Dane
9:02 Dragon - the rebellion ends, Maric is coronated
9:04 Dragon - Cailan is born
9:16 Dragon - the Stolen Throne's epilogue
9:30 Dragon - Dragon Age: Origins begins

It's stated in The Calling that it takes place 8 years after the end of Orlesian rule, making it 9:10 Dragon.

The child from The Calling would be conceived in 9:10 so that would make him 19-20. I always thought that that was Alistair, but people have made some damn good arguments against it in this thread. I'm starting to think that he probably wasn't.

The only people who would've know about the child from The Calling and his parentage are Maric, Fiona, and Duncan. Would've been pretty easy to hide completely. Certainly no reason to bring in Loghain, Arl Eamon, and Goldanna into the picture.

Actually Duncan in the first chapter says that it has been 11 years since the Orlesians left.  So if that is based on when the Rebellion ends in 9:02 then that means that Fiona's kid is either only 16 or 17.

There is NO way that Alistair is Fiona's baby (unless David Gaider says so, and if he does it's rather sloppy writing and pointless red herring).  Now if only people would actually stop coming up with these elaborate conspiracies about deals made in the dark with the maid.  My head is starting to hurt from all the head-desking. 

It's all Occam's Razor.  If you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebra.  If you have bastard who says his mother is maid, his mother is maid not a grey-warden elf mage who conspired/sought out a dead woman/what ever conspiracy story makes you happy since you think that everything has  to be connected. 

[dan107]

RazorNightngale wrote...
Actually Duncan in the first chapter says that it has been 11 years since the Orlesians left.  So if that is based on when the Rebellion ends in 9:02 then that means that Fiona's kid is either only 16 or 17.

No, he says 8 years. I'm looking at it right now.

It's all Occam's Razor.  If you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebra. 

Great rule of thumb for science. Politics - not so much. And in this particular case, there's a conspiracy to keep the baby hidden either way.