66 réponses à ce sujet

[Jayce]

wcholcombe wrote...

she isn't the former queen.

She is still queen, locked up or not. You are only a princess.

No, no, no. A Queen only has royal perogative if she's of royal blood or is the mother of the heir. Cailan is the royal and he and Anora have no children. She's a childless royal widow, nothing more. No matter how much she goes Waah! I want to be queen, she isn't.  

Her only entitlement is to the Teyrn-ship of Garven(sp) as Loghain's sole heir.

[Mesecina]

Felene wrote...

Well, in the first Denerim cutscene, Bann Teagan address Anora as your Majesty not your highness.

So I will say she already has the support of the Bannorn, not to mention during the Landsmeet if you go to Gnawed Noble Tavern, you can tell Anora has most Bannorn's support and that is why having her speak out against Loghain is so important.

Well yes but after winning the Landsmeet Alistair is the newly appointed King and she is kept around in case things turn badly for him, however after his coronation ANora loses the title. And Alistair does introduce the PC in the end as "my bethroted and your FUTURE QUEEN".
Anora not giving up her rights to the throne simply means that in case of a new Landsmeet being called (civil war, Alistair's death...) she would still have a claim to the Throne - same way Eamon or Teagan could through Maric's marriage to their sister. That's why Eamon says in the first place "We need someone with a stronger claim to the Throne than ANora or me and Teagan"

[GenJunos]

Speaking of Alistair leaving for Weisshaupt.. Maybe it's just me, but I was always bothered by the fact that ALISTAIR was the one called away, not PC. Yet PC was the one who landed the killing blow on the archdemon, and all throughout the game, it was PC whom everyone referred to as Grey Warden. Aside from Bann Teagan, I don't remember many people even acknowledging Alistair as a Grey Warden. Yeah, I understand Alistair is king and all... but I don't know, it just doesn't seem to sit that he gets called to Weisshaupt and the PC Grey Warden sits around taking care of the country or whatever.

[Felene]

Mesecina wrote...

Well yes but after winning the Landsmeet Alistair is the newly appointed King and she is kept around in case things turn badly for him, however after his coronation ANora loses the title. And Alistair does introduce the PC in the end as "my bethroted and your FUTURE QUEEN".
Anora not giving up her rights to the throne simply means that in case of a new Landsmeet being called (civil war, Alistair's death...) she would still have a claim to the Throne - same way Eamon or Teagan could through Maric's marriage to their sister. That's why Eamon says in the first place "We need someone with a stronger claim to the Throne than ANora or me and Teagan"

Ahh, but the Landsmeet did not strip her rights to the throne and thus, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And why is it after coronation must Anora loose her title?

She is made queen regnant after her husband's death, just like you have said, the Landsmeet agree to let Alistair rule as King of Ferelden but they never deny her rights to the throne and her title.

Like I said before, unless she is kill or her title is somehow strip from her, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And yes, Alistair introduce the PC as future queen, not current queen.<_<

Modifié par Felene, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:48 .

[Mesecina]

Felene wrote...

Mesecina wrote...

Well yes but after winning the Landsmeet Alistair is the newly appointed King and she is kept around in case things turn badly for him, however after his coronation ANora loses the title. And Alistair does introduce the PC in the end as "my bethroted and your FUTURE QUEEN".
Anora not giving up her rights to the throne simply means that in case of a new Landsmeet being called (civil war, Alistair's death...) she would still have a claim to the Throne - same way Eamon or Teagan could through Maric's marriage to their sister. That's why Eamon says in the first place "We need someone with a stronger claim to the Throne than ANora or me and Teagan"

Ahh, but the Landsmeet did not strip her rights to the throne and thus, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And why is it after coronation must Anora loose her title?

She is made queen regnant after her husband's death, just like you have said, the Landsmeet agree to let Alistair rule as King of Ferelden but they never deny her rights to the throne and her title.

Like I said before, unless she is kill or her title is somehow strip from her, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And yes, Alistair introduce the PC as future queen, not current queen.<_<

SO going by your logic if Anora was male Ferelden would have 2 kings?
And of course PC is the future Queen since they are not married yet but the epilogue (slideshow) mentions her as Queen

[DarkSpiral]

Anora is not made queen-regent. She's still the Queen. LOGHAIN is made regent. Or names himself regeent, whatever. And using real-world medieval laws to point out that Anora couldn't be Queen anymore because she didn't actually have any royal blood meaningless. For one thing, the thrones power in Ferelden is bestowed upon it by the banns; if they aren't willing to follow a claimant to the throne then they aren't a claimant at all. People WERE willing to follow Anora, however (and Loghian, as her regent) and that's why the civil war happened.



Real world monarchies ha dpower descend to the nobles from the throne, not the other way around. Since the framework is not the same, quoting tradition and law from actual history is not only a waste of time (because this is not the real world, afterall) but doesn't even have a solid basis for argument.



All that having been said, I understand that the model of power flowing from the minor and major lords to the throne is based on something that did in fact occur, in Germany. Or whatever the country was called at the time that used to be where Germany is now.



Yeah, that was awkwardly phrased. Sorry. Not sure how else to say it.



Point being, if someone knows that this real-world situation did in fact exist, and knows that there were laws that spell out that Anora couldn't have been Queen afterall, well then that part of my argument is flawed. I stand by the fact that nowhere in the actual game is Anora ACTUALLY removed from the throne however. Loghain explicity states to you (if you let him live, and ask him about it, in camp) that he was very careful to not actually remove her from power. And thus, she was still Queen throughout the events of the game. Not ex-Queen, not Queen-regent.

[Asante81]

I still don't know why you guys seem to think it's a good idea to have a regent queen locked up in a tower and a regent king reigning (both not being married. And even if married, only ONE of them is the actual ruler, the other one is just the lucky guy/girl marrying the king/queen)... this does not work. Period. Making Alistair king means getting rid of Anora, in whichever way. Everything else would be nothing but incredibly stupid. Period...

[Valmy]

wcholcombe wrote...

she isn't the former queen.

She is still queen, locked up or not. You are only a princess.

She was imprisoned for the suspicion of leading a rebellion against the crown.  She is deposed and will probably end up exiled or executed.  No freaking way she will be allowed to remain Queen  This was clearly the wrong ending.

Modifié par Valmy, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:45 .

[Felene]

Mesecina wrote...
SO going by your logic if Anora was male Ferelden would have 2 kings?
And of course PC is the future Queen since they are not married yet but the epilogue (slideshow) mentions her as Queen.

If Anora is male and Cailan is female, the husband of such a queen is not titled king, generally ranking as a prince. After queen regnant which is Cailan's death, Anora will be made prince regnant, different from king regnant.

In Anora's case, she was queen consort by her marrige to King Cailan, after Cailan's death, she is made queen regnant, but Loghain announce himself as regnant of the queen.

Although Loghain said he didn't remove her form power but Anora still thinks he did, so she make up a play for the PC Warden to watch and jump into her trap, later try to ally with the Warden to regain her regnant status.

What a power hungry **** she is. Best thing to do is lie to her that you will support her and try not to kill Loghain at the Landsmeet to win her support. Later, lock her in a tower.

[Valmy]

DarkSpiral wrote...
Point being, if someone knows that this real-world situation did in fact exist,

Yeah name me the real world situation where a monarch was overthrown by a political coup, imprisoned, and kept their title.

The number of times in RL that happened was: 0

[TheRealIncarnal]

Valmy, you're clearly not very familiar with the history of Britain are you? The Magna Carta?

That said, as the acting Regent it's entirely Alister's decision as who is the queen, but I doubt he'd leave Anora as queen if she's locked in a tower and he's married the human nobel PC.

Modifié par TheRealIncarnal, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[Kastigal]

Sadly there is one point being completely missed here.

Grey Wardens are stripped of their titles and holdings.

No Grey Warden can hold a title and serve.

So not exactly sure just how the epilogue works with Alistar as King or any pc male or female.

Given that as a Grey Warden you must give up titles and claims.

Just food for thought... speaking of food.. where are all my cookies.. STEN!!!

[tigrina]

Kastigal wrote...

Sadly there is one point being completely missed here.
Grey Wardens are stripped of their titles and holdings.
No Grey Warden can hold a title and serve.
So not exactly sure just how the epilogue works with Alistar as King or any pc male or female.
Given that as a Grey Warden you must give up titles and claims.
Just food for thought... speaking of food.. where are all my cookies.. STEN!!!

In some of the endings Alistair has to go to Weisshaupt for quite some time. I guess he got some explanation to do.

[Asante81]

Felena, I'll say it again: read the codex entry to the Bannorn. Things in Ferelden are SLIGHTLY different. Cailan's death does not automatically make Anora queen. They need the support of the Bannorn for that. And they only thought it wouldn't make a difference due to the lack of a valid other candidate. They thought the landsmeet would only be a formality, which does NOT mean she is the RIGHTFUL queen regnant or queen and Loghain her regnant. She would have only been AFTER the landsmeet. That's why her coronation, if you support her, is AFTER ALL THE EVENTS WITH THE ARCHDEMON. Because she is NOT officially queen before the landsmeet decision.

[Asante81]

Kastigal wrote...

Sadly there is one point being completely missed here.
Grey Wardens are stripped of their titles and holdings.
No Grey Warden can hold a title and serve.
So not exactly sure just how the epilogue works with Alistar as King or any pc male or female.
Given that as a Grey Warden you must give up titles and claims.
Just food for thought... speaking of food.. where are all my cookies.. STEN!!!

Wasn't that for mages? The reason why Isolde hired an apostate to teach Connor how to hide what he is?
Thing is: Eamon would have never even suggested making Alistair king if that would be the reason, would he?
And my noble runs around telling everyone who she is. Oh and in the end she was made Teyrna of Gwaren as a wedding present...

[Badpie]

Asante81 wrote...

Kastigal wrote...

Sadly there is one point being completely missed here.
Grey Wardens are stripped of their titles and holdings.
No Grey Warden can hold a title and serve.
So not exactly sure just how the epilogue works with Alistar as King or any pc male or female.
Given that as a Grey Warden you must give up titles and claims.
Just food for thought... speaking of food.. where are all my cookies.. STEN!!!

Wasn't that for mages? The reason why Isolde hired an apostate to teach Connor how to hide what he is?
Thing is: Eamon would have never even suggested making Alistair king if that would be the reason, would he?
And my noble runs around telling everyone who she is. Oh and in the end she was made Teyrna of Gwaren as a wedding present...

I don't remember anything about Grey Wardens having to give up their family name or titles - just that Duncan did.  I think some of them DO as a symbolic gesture but does it say somewhere that it's required?

Also, Alistair was probably as Weis for such a long time because he he just shrugged and looked stupid like he said he was going to.

*shrug*  "I have no idea what you're talking about.  I have absolutely NO CLUE how we survived that arch demon killing blow.  I don't even know where babies come from......Did I say baby?  I didn't say baby.  There's nothing at all in my brain or life or any reality that should ever suggest that I would say baby.  Let alone demon baby....I mean!  *smacks forehead*  I...I...*nervous giggle*  I most certainly did NOT impregnate a maleficar with the soul of an old god that could either be nothing or destroy us all.  Nope.  Not me....um...*shrug*....Is there cheese here?"

[ChemicalGreen]

I've played through the game three times now, and each time something was off at the end credits...

1st playthrough - dwarf female commoner romancing Alistair, he sacrifices himself and dies with the Archdemon. Anora is all heartbroken about it (yeah, right) and ascends the throne solo in game. Yet epilogue box claimed she married Alistair and that they were reasonably happy as king and queen.

2nd playthrough male elven mage, romancing Zevran... Epilogue claims he lived happily ever aften with the _woman_ he loved.... okay, I was an elven mage, but no reason to make assumptions about who's on top, Bioware. <_<

3rd playthrough, human female noble, married Alistair after romancing him, locked Anora in her tower and stilll got the ending with her being uncomfortable until Alistair is called to Weisshaupt jadda, jadda....

[Kastigal]

Actually the referance is made in a conversation with Wynne.

I was Human Male Noble. She questioned about my past found out I am the last of my line then mentions that it matters little since Grey Wardens are required to give up titles and lands.

Just found it curious was all. Not to detract from anything.

It is just little inconsistances that creep up here and there like saving the Earl and his wife and kid yet my journal says I killed Isoede to save the boy..

Given the complexity of everything that happens. I suspect and don't quote me on this. Reloading after doing something to change what you did may cause small errors to creep in.

Nothing is infalable and having scripted for years in nwn and such. It is easy for the game to hold a value it should have refreshed when you reloaded. (but enough technical crap)

So in regards to the King Queen endings I think the entire purpose is sololy to produce an heir.

Thus Anola is still valid only in so much if Alistar and the Queen (your pc) fail to secure an heir then she is the only other valid choice (yes there are the other Bann's but none hold the same love that she does. I could be wrong but really It is all about Heirs rather then Kings and Queens anyways.

[slackbheep]

GenJunos wrote...

Speaking of Alistair leaving for Weisshaupt.. Maybe it's just me, but I was always bothered by the fact that ALISTAIR was the one called away, not PC. Yet PC was the one who landed the killing blow on the archdemon, and all throughout the game, it was PC whom everyone referred to as Grey Warden. Aside from Bann Teagan, I don't remember many people even acknowledging Alistair as a Grey Warden. Yeah, I understand Alistair is king and all... but I don't know, it just doesn't seem to sit that he gets called to Weisshaupt and the PC Grey Warden sits around taking care of the country or whatever.

I understood this as them being suspicious of your ending a Blight without your death. Alistair is the king, and traveled with you as well as being the Senior Grey Warden in Ferelden. Makes enough sense to me.

[Felene]

Asante81 wrote...

Felena, I'll say it again: read the codex entry to the Bannorn. Things in Ferelden are SLIGHTLY different. Cailan's death does not automatically make Anora queen. They need the support of the Bannorn for that. And they only thought it wouldn't make a difference due to the lack of a valid other candidate. They thought the landsmeet would only be a formality, which does NOT mean she is the RIGHTFUL queen regnant or queen and Loghain her regnant. She would have only been AFTER the landsmeet. That's why her coronation, if you support her, is AFTER ALL THE EVENTS WITH THE ARCHDEMON. Because she is NOT officially queen before the landsmeet decision.

But, prior to the Landsmeet, she already has the support of the Bannorns. Also, in her codex, she has been the one in power ever since her marrige to King Cailan.

And, a civil war almost break out because Loghain announce himself as regent of the queen. Note: If Anora
was not queen regnant, Loghain doesn't need to announce himself as regent of the queen, simply regent will do.

Another proof will be in her codex, if you choose Alistair as king in the Landsmeet, codex shows she was deposed, in another word, remove from the throne. So, she was in the throne before the Landsmeet.

Therefore, I will say she was queen regnant after King Cailan's death.

Modifié par Felene, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[Cazlee]

Felene wrote...
Ahh, but the Landsmeet did not strip her rights to the throne and thus, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And why is it after coronation must Anora loose her title?

She is made queen regnant after her husband's death, just like you have said, the Landsmeet agree to let Alistair rule as King of Ferelden but they never deny her rights to the throne and her title.

Like I said before, unless she is kill or her title is somehow strip from her, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And yes, Alistair introduce the PC as future queen, not current queen.<_<

If you read Queen Anora's codex, she's deposed (dethroned) after the landsmeet.  Alistair chooses Arl Eamon to be regent while Alistair performs his duty as a grey warden to fight the blight.  The epilogue takes place in the future where Alistair is already king and so Anora has been stripped of her "Queen" title.  When Alistair is king, the "Queen" title can only be given to Alistair's wife (or he could choose to give her the title of "princess consort" instead). The slide is wrong / ending is bugged. The slide being shown is for the King Alistair / Queen Anora + Mistress Ending... consider that it is the same slide and fits the mistress context better.

Modifié par Cazlee, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:13 .

[vocalemuse]

Cazlee wrote...

Felene wrote...
Ahh, but the Landsmeet did not strip her rights to the throne and thus, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And why is it after coronation must Anora loose her title?

She is made queen regnant after her husband's death, just like you have said, the Landsmeet agree to let Alistair rule as King of Ferelden but they never deny her rights to the throne and her title.

Like I said before, unless she is kill or her title is somehow strip from her, she is still Queen of Ferelden.

And yes, Alistair introduce the PC as future queen, not current queen.<_<

If you read Queen Anora's codex, she's deposed (dethroned) after the landsmeet.  Alistair chooses Arl Eamon to be regent while Alistair performs his duty as a grey warden to fight the blight.  The epilogue takes place in the future where Alistair is already king and so Anora has been stripped of her "Queen" title.  When Alistair is king, the "Queen" title can only be given to Alistair's wife (or he could choose to give her the title of "princess consort" instead). The slide is wrong / ending is bugged. The slide being shown is for the King Alistair / Queen Anora + Mistress Ending... consider that it is the same slide and fits the mistress context better.

Cazlee is right. The ending is just bugged, which I REALLY hope they get around to fixing soon, and Anora is not still queen if your female human noble marries Alistair at the end. Case closed.

[Fragglespank]

On my mage playthrough I asked Alistair for the circle to be 'free' from the templars, and he said the mages could look after themselves from now on.

But, according to the epilogue, Cullen still took over and was a bit of a bastard about it too.

[SarEnyaDor]

The only ending I've had thus far that didn't have at least one error was the one where I died.



>

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Felene wrote...

Unless Bioware writers write a book about Ferelden lineage laws you never know how lineage works in Ferelden.

Still, as long as nobody insisting on strip Anora of her title, I guess she can still keep it.

What a lucky **** she is.

Well considering Cailan was dead and the lore in the collectors edition of the game guide indicates that "In modern times, it has come to be expected that there is a king and must be one for Ferelden to survive. Blood is considered most important, hence why as Eamon states Alastair has a far greater claim than Anora had of remaining as Queen unless she actually married him.

With regards the female human noble competing with Anora, they are kind of tied apart from the fact Anora has already been Queen for five years.

Due to Alastair being the step-brother of Cailan, some would state that Anora unless she could find someone worthy to be the new King she would need to step down to allow the blood lineage to continue.

As for why the female PC gets named Princess-consort, I think it is a slight bug fault or going on the basis this is only mentioned due to the actual marriage having not taken place yet when it comes to the epilogue.

The interesting thing is, if I remember rightly from my 2nd playthrough when I convinced Alastair and Anora to rule together, Anora am sure referred to Alastair as being the King-consort rather than King in that she would rule (much as she had beforehand) with him acting as her General more than King. Fact is I reckon a hardened Alastair is actually a better King than Cailan could have hoped to be, I look upon Cailan as a how a 'soft' Alastair would have ruled, even though I know that the hardened Alastair was still a man of the people rather than the court. I imagine the same applies if you are a human noble male and suggest marriage to her.

Slightly irked me on my 3rd playthrough that despite the fact I had sided with Anora as Queen to rule alone and Alastair had agreed with it and it had all been done, when it came to the conversation on the rooftop and even when Riordan initally mentions the sacrifice part, I was still getting the option to query why Alastair would want to take the sacrifice instead of being King!?!? But it is a minor niggle, unlike I think the Princess-Consort is one I think. Specially as in the Epilogue of course it goes on about Anora being queen. Although it just reminded me that unlike if the PC dies, I didn't get any mention of Alastair's remains going to Weisshaupt and being tombed next to the other wardens whom had sacrificed their life to end the blights.

Just realised whilst reflecting on my epilogue for my 3rd playthrough that I didn't get the text for my comrades other than Morrigan whom had already left the party anyway and the 'scattered to the four winds' box. Yet I know that in my first playthrough when my character survived I did and also did on 2nd when I sacrificed my character. Although I know where Oghren and Shale were going (former going to look up Felsi, latter was going to go to tevinter imperium to see if could become a dwarf again) and poor wardog got no mention or coronation epilogue text

Aah well, time to get on with playthrough number 4