662 réponses à ce sujet

[Sybafairy]

Everyone i know who has played the game has had the 'wtf' moment.

The level of hatred is generally based on how much they played and absorbed the series. even casual gamer friends have thought it was poor.

[PSUHammer]

I quite enjoyed the ending although I saw this coming and believe that is what is happening:

www.youtube.com/watch

[Ziggeh]

lillitheris wrote...However, all statistics thus far show overwhelming dissatisfaction with the ending (for various reasons). Id est, overwhelming enough to be statistically suggestive. Claiming that those who liked it are a majority has the burden of proof at this point.

Yeah, I'd argue that any individual poll is basically meaningless due to bias, but taken all together if it were indeed a vocal minority you would definitely expect to see more variance. (There is an alternative to this, but it would require organisation on a level unlikely in this case)

[EricHVela]

Someone failed their prob/stat class I think.

[Ziggeh]

VirtualAlex wrote...If you would be kind enough to tell me how I am to reasonable measure all the people that silently dislike the ending, maybe I could take them into account.

Accurate polling. Which you'd probably have to be EA to do. And it's not in their interest.

VirtualAlex wrote...But for the time being I will not assume what people think, rather I will only count people that vocalized thier opinion.

Yeah, see, presenting the raw numbers? That's cool. That's valid.

Attempting to relate unrelated figures using say, a chart, or interpreting the results ("have supported bioware in a general sense, at some point" <> "liked the ending") in an attempt to mash them together like trying to fit a bowling ball into the hole made for a square peg, that would be misrepresentation.

[Changer the Elder]

Sybafairy wrote...

Everyone i know who has played the game has had the 'wtf' moment.

The level of hatred is generally based on how much they played and absorbed the series. even casual gamer friends have thought it was poor.

Therefore saying everyone not part of this holy war is "not a fan" or at least "not enough of a fan". That, I'm afraid, is far less proven and/or scientific than VirtualAlex's statistics everyone seems to be scoffing over in this thread.

[Ziggeh]

DocStone wrote...
As part of a gaming clan, and a member of a forum with a very active gaming community, I have yet to encounter anyone that likes the ending. The reactions range from a simple WTF? to derision and ridicule of Bioware for making such an unreal ending. 
None of them post on here and I doubt that any of them have any idea about the "Retake" movement or their facebook page. However I do know that out of over 40 people I know (directly and indirectly) that have finished the game, not one of them liked the ending and they all hope it will be changed.
No statistics, no speculation, just cold hard facts there.

Apologies if this is out of order, as you are literally just presenting numbers without interpretation so I may well be reading more than was intended into it, but I find the number of "me and my friends" posts fairly disturbing, from a statistical perspective, and yours had the largest number in it.


"Me and my friends" is about as bias and unreprentative as it comes. Bold faced speculation would probably be a superior measure. By definition you share commonalities with your friends and so the probablity they will agree with you on any given topic is pretty damned high. Even in this case: a clan of 40 people, by virtue of being a clan, people who enjoy gaming to the extent they are in a clan, share a commonality of interest that will bias any interpretation. You cannot extrapolate to a larger population, or counter an actual statistic with "my and my mates". That would be like believing whizzing in the ocean will kill fish in another hemisphere.

[sfam]

Terror_K wrote...

sfam wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

As somebody who works in a shop that sells games, I have to say that everybody I've talked to about ME3 with since it came out who has played it has mentioned the endings sucking. I've seriously yet to meet anybody physically in real life who has finished the game and not commented on hating the endings. It was (and still is) a very common topic of conversation since the game released. Certainly the most talked about thing in the store during the first two weeks. So, from my experience, the endings are pretty much universally hated.

Interesting.  Do you have some guestimates at how many people you've talked to about this?  How many people on average per day do you have this conversation with?  Are you talking 2-3 per day or more like 20 per day?

Well, keeping in mind I work part time and wasn't there all day every day during the time period, along with the fact we're a small store in a small city that in most other Western countries would be considered a town, during the first two weeks I'd say it came up between 5 and 10 times a day. Over the last week or two (not counting regulars who I still discuss the issue with) it's closer to once or twice a day.

So, not a massive amount of times, but often enough, and percentage wise definitely completely tipped against it. Also, I've had two cases of copies being traded in to me and me basically commenting something along the lines of, "the ending was it?" and getting a silent, solemn nod in response.

Cool, thanks. I'm guessing you've talked with your coworkers about this - have they had pretty much the same reaction?

[sfam]

Ziggeh wrote...

DocStone wrote...
As part of a gaming clan, and a member of a forum with a very active gaming community, I have yet to encounter anyone that likes the ending. The reactions range from a simple WTF? to derision and ridicule of Bioware for making such an unreal ending. 
None of them post on here and I doubt that any of them have any idea about the "Retake" movement or their facebook page. However I do know that out of over 40 people I know (directly and indirectly) that have finished the game, not one of them liked the ending and they all hope it will be changed.
No statistics, no speculation, just cold hard facts there.

Apologies if this is out of order, as you are literally just presenting numbers without interpretation so I may well be reading more than was intended into it, but I find the number of "me and my friends" posts fairly disturbing, from a statistical perspective, and yours had the largest number in it.


"Me and my friends" is about as bias and unreprentative as it comes. Bold faced speculation would probably be a superior measure. By definition you share commonalities with your friends and so the probablity they will agree with you on any given topic is pretty damned high. Even in this case: a clan of 40 people, by virtue of being a clan, people who enjoy gaming to the extent they are in a clan, share a commonality of interest that will bias any interpretation. You cannot extrapolate to a larger population, or counter an actual statistic with "my and my mates". That would be like believing whizzing in the ocean will kill fish in another hemisphere.

Actually the "me and my friends" thing is incredibly valuable.  There's a reason movie studios are very interested in word of mouth.  This determines whether or not the opening weekend totals will be upheld or will drop off a cliff.  I think the same thing applies here.  Whether or not we can get solid statistics, is pretty damn clear that the word of mouth on Mass Effect 3 is that the ending is so bad, it sours you on the whole thing.  People at my work who are gamers but have never played Mass Effect have come up to me and commented that they heard the ending sucked, and asked whether I agree - this is really a bad sign for Bioware, whether or not the OP or others care to admit it.  

Yes, they got a terrific intial boost of sales, but now they're sales are falling sharply, as we can tell by the price drop. Bottom line, as much as they made, they could have made so much more - Bioware and EA have assuredly had many a tense meeting about this very topic. This, more than anything else may help swing a change in the ending. 

Modifié par sfam, 05 avril 2012 - 02:29 .

[Myrmedus]

Justin2k wrote...

Of course they are. Even if you take into account that a lot of people who never went on a forum didn't like the ending, thats still hundreds of thousands of people who didn't care enough to come online and join their group.

On this forum they of course seem like the majority, because people are always more likely to sign up to complain than they are to praise. Its the way it works.

Except knowing about the group would require coming to the forums first since the group effectively starts and ends here.

Therefore, coming to the forum is a pre-requisite to joining the group, not vice versa.

[demin8891]

Sparatus wrote...

No, bro.

I will not come at you.

[jonal11]

Using your numbers I re analyzed the numbers. 2,150,000 copies sold, minus 66,000 re takers. Means that 2,084,000 people have not finished ME3 yet. There ya go!

[winniethepuh]

Does not like the endings =/= in support of making new ones.

Does not dislike the endings =/= think they are actully well done. Maybe just old-school Bioware(BG1, release 1999) fans who have learned what to expect.

"likes" the endings =/= opposed to new ones.

Guess this needed repeating.

Even if you can empiricly prove that 95% of all Mass Effect players didn't like the end the amount of evidence you got for a "new ending" amounts to a grand total of.....*meh*... until you can actully prove that all those who disliked it actully want Bioware to change the endings, and even then this would really require an actual scientific method of determining opinions with failsafes like making sure a person can only voice their opinion(and that it is their opinion) once and so on (i.e actully talking to people face to face in real life).

"I work at/am in clan/community X and Y amount of people came in and complained about ME3" got a scientific value of balls really. Any poll that doesn't require the partisipant to atleast verify that they actully own a copy ME3 is really just a bucket of fail due to things like trolls, wagonriders (people jumping on the hate wagon just to hate, no prior interrest in ME series), compassion votes (your friends, clanmates, mom, grandma, hamster voting with your opinion) and so on.

Until someone, anyone capable of real scientific polling wich I doubt even EA can do rather fall into the swamp that is consumer support polling that was mentioned earlier, actully does a real research all the info either side can produce is really nothing but a bunch of hearsay at best.

Modifié par winniethepuh, 05 avril 2012 - 02:46 .

[Ziggeh]

sfam wrote...

Actually the "me and my friends" thing is incredibly valuable.

But isn't comparable with polling statistics.

You're talking about perception and transmission, which would probably be a more fruitful discussion than this as it actually determines sales and the like, but firstly it isn't really open to question: Perception is clearly very poor, and secondly, I don't much care either way, I just really hate misuse of statistics.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 05 avril 2012 - 02:53 .

[sfam]

Ziggeh wrote...

sfam wrote...

Actually the "me and my friends" thing is incredibly valuable.

But isn't comparable with polling statistics.

You're talking about perception and transmission, which would probably be a more fruitful discussion than this as it actually determines sales and the like, but firstly it isn't really open to question: Perception is clearly very poor, and secondly, I don't much care either way, I just really hate misuse of statistics.

Companies in the entertainment business have rigorous ways of capturing this - even if everything in word of mouth communications are subjective, they still affect buying decisions.  All we have is anectodal information which suggests massively bad publicity based on people hating the ending.  My point is I'm positive EA and Bioware have rigorous data about this, and furthermore, I'm going to go out on a ledge and say the massive amount of anecdotal data, along with data points such as drops in price way earlier than expected indicates that EA and Bioware probably weren't too happy with their word of mouth numbers. But yes, this is just me talking on a discussion board, like everyone else in the forum. But when so much annecdotal information arises (along with clear data points like price drops), its pretty silly to put your head in the sand and argue there isn't a problem. 

Modifié par sfam, 05 avril 2012 - 03:05 .

[Ziggeh]

sfam wrote...Companies in the entertainment business have rigorous ways of capturing this

While by no means a universal measure, the advertising companies I've worked for used data collection methods that could by no means be described as rigorous. They tended to start with the conclusion and work backwards. But that's really an aside.

sfam wrote...But when so much annecdotal information arises (along with clear data points like price drops), its pretty silly to put your head in the sand and argue there isn't a problem.

Just to clarify, as I find I need to a lot, and you're probably talking about Bioware there, but in case you're not:
I'm by no means arguing there isn't a problem. There clearly is. My argument is with the misrepresentation of data. Just because we don't have it doesn't mean we don't have a case, and it's actively detrimental to make them up in an attempt to solidify.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 05 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[VirtualAlex]

Me and my friends, every friend I have, all like the ending, fully support indoctrination theory and are pleased as punch at how clever it is.

See I can do it too. However did not use that "stat." Because I know that me and my friends are not the same as you and your friends. Me and my friends have spoken in depth about the ending and helped each other fill holes etc. On the other hand you and your friends likely sat around talking about the holes and actively looking for more. Anger and hate takes on a mind of it's own.

Regardless, I only used numbers I could gather, so sorry I couldn't poll you or your friends.

[Ziggeh]

VirtualAlex wrote...
Regardless, I only used numbers I could gather, so sorry I couldn't poll you or your friends.

And you used them incorrectly.

[VirtualAlex]

Ziggeh wrote...

Attempting to relate unrelated figures using say, a chart, or interpreting the results ("have supported bioware in a general sense, at some point" <> "liked the ending") in an attempt to mash them together like trying to fit a bowling ball into the hole made for a square peg, that would be misrepresentation.

You are smart, and I like you much more than the rest of the lemmings, and you are correct. I am very clearly an obviously presenting an intentionally biased view of the numbers. However, I do not say everyone who doesn't (actively) hate the ending must like the ending. How many games were sold is a real number 2million, I make a slight leap to count each sale as a  person buying the game. Of those people some are active haters. I wanted to demonstrate just how small a chunk those haters are.

I had to choose some way of measuring exactly what is a hater and I chose the largest facebook group, and twitter name. If the reas of the haters are hiding or silent then I cannot count them. However I don't think I am representing something tricky here.

[ticklefist]

How the hell is this useless thread still going?

[VirtualAlex]

ticklefist wrote...

How the hell is this useless thread still going?

people like you like to bump it while at the same time adding 0 value

[Terror_K]

sfam wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Well, keeping in mind I work part time and wasn't there all day every day during the time period, along with the fact we're a small store in a small city that in most other Western countries would be considered a town, during the first two weeks I'd say it came up between 5 and 10 times a day. Over the last week or two (not counting regulars who I still discuss the issue with) it's closer to once or twice a day.

So, not a massive amount of times, but often enough, and percentage wise definitely completely tipped against it. Also, I've had two cases of copies being traded in to me and me basically commenting something along the lines of, "the ending was it?" and getting a silent, solemn nod in response.

Cool, thanks. I'm guessing you've talked with your coworkers about this - have they had pretty much the same reaction?

One, yes. The others haven't played it, and have actually been put off it by hearing the comments.

[sfam]

Ziggeh wrote...

sfam wrote...Companies in the entertainment business have rigorous ways of capturing this

While by no means a universal measure, the advertising companies I've worked for used data collection methods that could by no means be described as rigorous. They tended to start with the conclusion and work backwards. But that's really an aside.

sfam wrote...But when so much annecdotal information arises (along with clear data points like price drops), its pretty silly to put your head in the sand and argue there isn't a problem.

Just to clarify, as I find I need to a lot, and you're probably talking about Bioware there, but in case you're not:
I'm by no means arguing there isn't a problem. There clearly is. My argument is with the misrepresentation of data. Just because we don't have it doesn't mean we don't have a case, and it's actively detrimental to make them up in an attempt to solidify.

With the latest data point from EA today, I think we have a case.  They are holding off on developing paid DLCs to spend time till the summer to put out a free DLC to hopefully fix (they claim they will explain) the ending.  Not sure how much clearer a data point you can get than this.  Where there was annecdotal smoke, there is now clearly fire...

[satunnainen]

What kind of valid statistics can you squeeze out of that announcement then? Except the fact that they are listening to complaints and making a DLC.

[Ziggeh]

VirtualAlex wrote...


However, I do not say everyone who doesn't (actively) hate the ending must like the ending. How many games were sold is a real number 2million, I make a slight leap to count each sale as a  person buying the game. Of those people some are active haters. I wanted to demonstrate just how small a chunk those haters are.

 
And you thought a facebook group associated but not definitive of said hate or even the game would somehow account for all of them?


All that chart shows is how many people are in that group. Nothing more. You cannot extrapolate to anywhere or conclude anything further.