93 réponses à ce sujet

[Ogre2010]

Yeah...checking others spelling is a bit lame...find a new hobby.

[purplesunset]

Ogre2010 wrote...

Yeah...checking others spelling is a bit lame...find a new hobby.

I agree with you.

[JRR006]

exorzist wrote...

One of the major criticisms of Dragon Age: Origins has been that the game draws on ‘derivative fantasy’ in its plot and storyline. Now, staying away from the debate over whether or not DA:O is ‘dark fantasy’ as marketed, or ‘Tolkien-esque epic fantasy’ , the whole discussion leads me to ask why is it that anything in the fantasy genre is immediately under fire for being self-referential.

What I want to know is when does something stop being cliché and become, instead, archetype?

It was interesting to find this thread, because I've just seen a similar discussion on a reading blog I follow (it was about Gaskell's Wives and Daughters, but whatever... pastoral domesticity, dragons, same diff).  General consensus was that novelty in and of itself is not necessary (nor sufficient) for a work to be enjoyable, and derivation is no barrier to suspense or enjoyment.  Appreciating the craftsmanship and fine detailings, not reading (playing) for sensational novelty. 

I find it hard to criticize Dragon Age: Origins for being "too derivitive", as if it's somehow more derivitive than most things, though it might be true that fantasy as a genre has a more incestuous genealogy than ... well, the books that sit on the general fiction shelves at Barnes & Noble.  Any subculture/subgenre will have the same phenomenon at work, wherein it's easier to pinpoint perceived points of derivation.  

I think PA's Tycho lamented that a genre called "fantasy" could possibly have such established archetypes (or cliches, the words are practically just two sides of the connotation coin in common parlance).  That I... sort of agree with, but then again the devs (or David Gaider, at least, earlier in the thread) have mentioned several times that appeal must be to the typical gamer/consumer.  Apparently people don't respond well to too much wacky.

 

Modifié par JRR006, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:46 .

[Shaggytbj]

I see it as sensible business sense to aim at a popular setting and then do your own spin on it, considering how much games cost in todays world to produce + theres risks of alienating your costumer base somewhat if you do too much radical change in your product. Bioware is a smart combany they produce products they know is wanted on the market and dont change too fast but maybe bit by bit to test out new water, being total innovative have way to high failure rate to be worth going for at... lets say all of us costumers are a small fish swimming in the Bioware pond, they will throw small rocks into it now and then to test the water... tho if they went and put an boulder in the pond... well could end up make a huge splash and killing most of the fish. People today are very unforgiving in general and will quickly look elswhere if they feel unhappy.

Bioware needs to make money, and honestly im happy to know what kinda games ill get if i end up buying a game they produced.

Modifié par Shaggytbj, 04 décembre 2009 - 06:06 .

[Jayce]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Thing is, making something that is different enough to peak the interest of those fans

Pique.

Pedant.

[purplesunset]

Shaggytbj wrote...

I see it as sensible business sense to aim at a popular setting and then do your own spin on it, considering how much games cost in todays world to produce + theres risks of alienating your costumer base somewhat if you do too much radical change in your product. Bioware is a smart combany they produce products they know is wanted on the market and dont change too fast but maybe bit by bit to fish out fresh water, being total innovative have way to high failure rate to be worth going for at... lets say all of us costumers are a small fish swimming in the Bioware pond, they will throw small rocks into it now and then to test the water... tho if they went and put an boulder in the pond... well could end up make huge splash and killing most of the fish. People today are very unforgiving in general and will quickly look elswhere if they feel unhappy.

Bioware needs to make money, and honestly im happy to know what kinda games ill get if i end up buying a game they produced.

Well said. : two thumbs up:

I really like your analogy involving tossing small rocks (using familiar archetypes) vs. a giant boulder (something creative).

When you put it in this light, it's easier to sympathise with big companies, and understand the choices they make. Thanks for the elucidation.

Modifié par purplesunset, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[Giygas Starman]

Whatever, the designs and "new" twists of the characters and monsters in this game makes me really excited. REALLY EXCIIiIITEeED!!! The ogres, most of all, looks so much cooler than LotR's design (and I mean the movies) as well as DnD's design choice. The darkspawn may be just orcs for some, but I feel they are a refreshing take on the mindless/soulless evil stormtroopers who throws themselves at you.



The only thing I can honestly say never was redone/re-imagined are the robes... Mage robes/Chantry robes are... not... well done. Looks silly and/or generic. Except the Chasind maybe. Anyway, the designs are fresh but the monsters are still same old. classic!

[exorzist]

Giygas Starman wrote...
The only thing I can honestly say never was redone/re-imagined are the robes... Mage robes/Chantry robes are... not... well done. Looks silly and/or generic. Except the Chasind maybe. Anyway, the designs are fresh but the monsters are still same old. classic!

Do not know if I'm the only one but I noticed a symbol on the Chantry robes that reminds me a lot of the Neverwinter Nights icon ...

[AntiChri5]

BADTURNIP wrote...

I think what people are missing is this

Grey Wardens ???? you mean The Nights Watch from George RR Martins epic fanatasy series A Song Of Ice and Fire.

The Nights Watch are forgotten about because The Others havent been sighted or threatened Westros for a hundred years. Their force dwindle on The Wall and become almost nonexistent.

This is the same concept Bioware have used for the Grey Wardens. The population of Fereldan believe them redundant like The Nights Watch, because there had been no recent threat.

Now A Song Of Ice and Fire is a awesome series and I would recommend it to everyone here, but Bioware have used the concept of a ancient guardian of people and applied in brilliantly to a new setting. Being original is very hard these days but, as a previous poster said, reapplying a old concept to a new one is genius and deservers a high amount of praise

Agreed

[XRavishX]

I think it's all about perspective. A person can look at this kind of work as a copy of something that's already been done many times. But, that person would be missing the point. It's like reading a two page summary of a 500 page book. The truth of the matter is that there is a lot of original stuff out there from games to movies to music to whatever that borrow, copy or what have you from previous works. It's not what is being copied, but how it's put together. Take this video:







It's a comedic take on my point.

[Ogre2010]

Shaggytbj wrote...

I see it as sensible business sense to aim at a popular setting and then do your own spin on it, considering how much games cost in todays world to produce + theres risks of alienating your costumer base somewhat if you do too much radical change in your product. Bioware is a smart combany they produce products they know is wanted on the market and dont change too fast but maybe bit by bit to test out new water, being total innovative have way to high failure rate to be worth going for at... lets say all of us costumers are a small fish swimming in the Bioware pond, they will throw small rocks into it now and then to test the water... tho if they went and put an boulder in the pond... well could end up make huge splash and killing most of the fish. People today are very unforgiving in general and will quickly look elswhere if they feel unhappy.

Bioware needs to make money, and honestly im happy to know what kinda games ill get if i end up buying a game they produced.

But...when does the small rock become small enough that the fish don't notice it at all? There is a grey area there. A boulder is too much, and a grain of sand is too little.  The key is finding to rock that has enough of an impact to get the attention of maximum of the fish without killing them. In other words, the smallest amount of what people are used to and makes people comfertable while adding the maximum amount of the new, unknown and fresh without cutting them off from that comfert pillow...is how you maintain your audience while drawing in new veiwers. It's hard to do, but worth doing in the long run since expanding a fan base is how all forms of media make most of their money, right?

[Shaggytbj]

Ogre2010 wrote...

Shaggytbj wrote...

I see it as sensible business sense to aim at a popular setting and then do your own spin on it, considering how much games cost in todays world to produce + theres risks of alienating your costumer base somewhat if you do too much radical change in your product. Bioware is a smart combany they produce products they know is wanted on the market and dont change too fast but maybe bit by bit to test out new water, being total innovative have way to high failure rate to be worth going for at... lets say all of us costumers are a small fish swimming in the Bioware pond, they will throw small rocks into it now and then to test the water... tho if they went and put an boulder in the pond... well could end up make huge splash and killing most of the fish. People today are very unforgiving in general and will quickly look elswhere if they feel unhappy.

Bioware needs to make money, and honestly im happy to know what kinda games ill get if i end up buying a game they produced.

But...when does the small rock become small enough that the fish don't notice it at all? There is a grey area there. A boulder is too much, and a grain of sand is too little.  The key is finding to rock that has enough of an impact to get the attention of maximum of the fish without killing them. In other words, the smallest amount of what people are used to and makes people comfertable while adding the maximum amount of the new, unknown and fresh without cutting them off from that comfert pillow...is how you maintain your audience while drawing in new veiwers. It's hard to do, but worth doing in the long run since expanding a fan base is how all forms of media make most of their money, right?

Your approch is is good if the product was general product and something most whould use, but  story driven tactical RPGS as DA:O are very much sub market of the gaming market and appeals to certain part of it trying to appeal to many will only cause you grief.  Alot of PC game makers over the last 5-7 years have tryed to appeal, to many people and end up creating a bland and poor product that sells poorly. Selective marketing and production have played a key role in Biowares succes in my opinion, they know what they can make and make it well, and expand just to expand more often backfires than not as far i can tell. EA bought Bioware to get  this market so im pretty darn sure EA tells em to stick to what they are good at.

Modifié par Shaggytbj, 04 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[Nambot]

I would almost rather just have the dwarves and elves replaced with humans.

[stragonar]

Read through bits-and-pieces here, and I would like to add my own two cents.



I've been playing rpgs, reading fantasy novels, and yes the actual pen and paper D&D for quite some time and i must say, what really draws me into a good game, book etc. is not what is new under the sun, it is the effort put into it that captivates me. New races with new looks and new stats with poor background will never have the same impact as building on what fantasy gamers are familiar with and expanding on it. I was particularly impressed with the culture of the dwarves.

Sure the social system is nothing new and mimicks certain parts of the world in reality but it was done well enough to immerse the player. For me it is this effort that sets DoA apart from many other games.

[Leg_lamp]

Personally, I don't care if the short-statured humanoids with pointy ears are called elves, pixies, vulcans, or my in-laws, so long as I'm being told a good story.  I also don't care if the elven pixie in-laws are wise and magical, snivelling and conniving, and/or drunk and obnoxious at Thanksgiving, so long as I'm being told a good story.

If the elves in DA:O were called "Wombats", then people would probably still be comparing them to elves (and maybe Koalas).  We would also probably still be comparing their situation to that of the Native Americans.

In my opinion, the difference on what gets labeled "cliché" vs "archetype", is just the value judgment someone has made about the quality on that work of fiction.  I also think it is silly that people would complain that the presence of elves, dwarves, and dragons by itself is clichéd.  It is a genre.  Do people complain that mystery novels might have a detective, a victim, and a crime?  To me, the costumes, roles, and setting are just aesthetic. The story is the most important, regardless of genre.

I thought it was really interesting that elves were oppressed, and that the dwarves had a caste system.  I personally didn't see it as derivative, just a twist on the old.  I wonder if the critical might see things differently if the dwarves and elves in DAO were called something else, and looked totally different? 

[AiyanaLindari]

Leg_lamp wrote...
I thought it was really interesting that elves were oppressed, and that the dwarves had a caste system.  I personally didn't see it as derivative, just a twist on the old. 

Yes, I think DA:O manages to strike the right balance of making the 'old' new again, particularly by introducing interesting aspects like the caste system. It is probably the first time I've seen the caste system in a game and I thought it was done extremely well.

[Ogre2010]

stragonar wrote...

Read through bits-and-pieces here, and I would like to add my own two cents.

I've been playing rpgs, reading fantasy novels, and yes the actual pen and paper D&D for quite some time and i must say, what really draws me into a good game, book etc. is not what is new under the sun, it is the effort put into it that captivates me. New races with new looks and new stats with poor background will never have the same impact as building on what fantasy gamers are familiar with and expanding on it. I was particularly impressed with the culture of the dwarves.
Sure the social system is nothing new and mimicks certain parts of the world in reality but it was done well enough to immerse the player. For me it is this effort that sets DoA apart from many other games.

But expanding and retelling are two different things. What's currently going on with elves and dwarves is more retelling than everything else. Like you said, everyone knows these races, their characteristics, and several versions of their backgrounds but each time they are slightly altered in a retelling nothing new is added to existing content for other sources it's just re-imagined and retold with a new spin to peak the interest of those who enjoyed the nastalgia.

Expanding on content is different due to the fact that in order to expand on content, there must be an established base to grow from. It differs from a retelling in the fact that it continues a story from an precreated idea rather than recreating the entire thing from it's base ideas.  For instance, continuing the DA:O story development in a DA:O2 game would be an prime example of expanding on content since it's adding to the story rather than altering the entire thing.

Both of these, however, will not determine quality of the final product. The writing skill involved determines the quality of the story.  Bioware could have made the other races Sasquaches and Harpies (An example of two races that haven't got nearly the same amount of face time as main character material), and there is no doubt in my mind that Bioware has the writing potential to make it a work just as well as a dark fantasy the actual product.  Point being, the actual physical forms of the races aren't nearly as important for TELLING the story as it is for SELLING it. Elves and dwarves are the "teddybears" and "Mickey Mouse" for Mid-evil fantasy fans, they were the successful firsts, they're traditional, and they've become a symbol of comfert to those who remaining uncertain of the new. 

At least, that's my opinion.

[GhostMatter]

The only thing I really don't like about the clichés in this game is the fallen Dwarven empire. Makes sense, of course but I get tired of seeing these all the time. It does work in this game even though I don't like it much. Ideas are brewing in my head... and have I have the tools now!

Modifié par GhostMatter, 06 décembre 2009 - 12:23 .

[Uilleand]

Nambot wrote...

I would almost rather just have the dwarves and elves replaced with humans.

Which might work, except then you lose the mystical possibilities in, for example, the elven histories. They, as a race, have a past that contains lost immortality that doesn't involve blood magic, something out of place in a human race. Again, the subtext of 'elves' just adds layers of possibilities into the storytelling...

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Dont shoot me for this but i wish they had stayed DND. The freshness of dragon age is all good but i feel its to little magic, mystery, history, beastiary and so much more. I also truly miss the drow, and horror monsters like beholders. When i picture a genlock or hurlock in RL i see a mortal enemy that can be slain like any other. When i picture a beholder i see a thing of nightmares, the very incarnation of fear.



Also DND has many planes of existence, intelligent dragons (Pure "ME CRUSH YOU!" dragons from dragon age are meh in comparison) and such a rich and powerfull pool to draw from.



I know ferelden is just a small part of their new world but i feel it lacks epicness. Still a great game ofcourse but i think DND wouldve been better. Then again if the tables were turned maybe id wish they made something new afterall.



That being said im truly looking forward to the sequel, maybe Bioware will pull of a "Hordes of the underdark" expansion. By that i mean an expansion that is VASTLY superior to the original game (nwn OC VS HoTU in comparison)

[Kaosgirl]

GhostMatter wrote...

The only thing I really don't like about the clichés in this game is the fallen Dwarven empire. Makes sense, of course but I get tired of seeing these all the time. It does work in this game even though I don't like it much. Ideas are brewing in my head... and have I have the tools now!

All the Empires have 'fallen' to some degree or another.  This is IME fairly standard among fantasy games -most are set in what amounts to the world's Dark Age, where the glories and wonders of the past have been forgotten.

I suspect this is done to explain why there are ruins and ancient dungeons worth exploring for treasure.

[Critical Miss]

Originality in any genre only goes as far as you're prepared to research for ideas. Getting inspiration from other fantasy writers is a sure way to come up with unoriginal ideas. Knew an award winning fantasy/magical realism author (Penguin), and his bookcases were were filled with anything but fantasy. He knew that to be original, one had to explore many possibilities. His work is admired for its originality. Take it up with him, not me.

[LaztRezort]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Dont shoot me for this but i wish they had stayed DND. The freshness of dragon age is all good but i feel its to little magic, mystery, history, beastiary and so much more. I also truly miss the drow, and horror monsters like beholders. When i picture a genlock or hurlock in RL i see a mortal enemy that can be slain like any other. When i picture a beholder i see a thing of nightmares, the very incarnation of fear.

I'm not gonaa shoot ya but I just want to point out that, IMO, there is a certain many-breasted boss abomination in DA:O that makes beholders look like cute fluffy chew toys.  Certainly, BW has shown they can come up with some pretty scary (and original) monsters.  Let's hope we see more of that from them in the future.

[Ogre2010]

LaztRezort wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Dont shoot me for this but i wish they had stayed DND. The freshness of dragon age is all good but i feel its to little magic, mystery, history, beastiary and so much more. I also truly miss the drow, and horror monsters like beholders. When i picture a genlock or hurlock in RL i see a mortal enemy that can be slain like any other. When i picture a beholder i see a thing of nightmares, the very incarnation of fear.

I'm not gonaa shoot ya but I just want to point out that, IMO, there is a certain many-breasted boss abomination in DA:O that makes beholders look like cute fluffy chew toys.  Certainly, BW has shown they can come up with some pretty scary (and original) monsters.  Let's hope we see more of that from them in the future.

Yeah...gotta say that one was pretty sick...as in, made you want to puke sick.

[GhostMatter]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Dont shoot me for this but i wish they had stayed DND.

I don't agree, one of the reasons I find this game so great is that it's not bogged down by PnP rules. You can see it's made for a computer RPG.