24 réponses à ce sujet

[lx_theo]

 Was absent from DA2 dialogue as far as I could tell. This is one dissapointing factor I saw.

Not to upset anyone, but I'm atheist (NO HATING ON BELIEFS PLEASE), and in DA:O when I was able to tell the Preistess that i didn't believe in the maker during my human noble origin story, it was a nice touch to make my character more like me in developing his personality. I'd like to see the return of the ability when dealing with the chantry in DA3. All i ask is to try and have a few times to make the comments in that regard, so it can be a belief demonstrated in game.

And, of course, make it extremely obvious what the character is about to say with the dialogue wheel and all. I'd hate to have it throw an atheist idea out to someone without them realizing. I could see the rage-quitting now.

Thank you for your time.

[esper]

You can tell Elthina that the Maker didn't save Fereldan, and generally be an ass to her.

[Plaintiff]

Any time you talk to Elthina or Sebastian, you have the option to be very anti-chantry.

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't recall any instance where Hawke proclaims to believe in the Maker, nor any instance where (s)he flat-out denies the existence of that entity. As such, you an inject whatever level of faith (or lack of) into the character as you so desire. As others have pointed out, you can opt to be anti-Chantry (that is, anti-institution) with the dialogue.

(**Not much of a spoiler) - And while there is some dialogue that indicates the role of the Chantry in Hawke's past (Bethany makes mention of the Chantry in Lothering), and while Hawke does refer to the Maker now and again (but more in the way numerous people say "oh god"), it's nothing indicative of belief. The Chantry has a strong and powerful role in Thedan society. Its presence, and the services it provides, does not necessarily mean that all who live in or around the various factions actually hold belief in the Maker.

[nightscrawl]

esper wrote...

You can tell Elthina that the Maker didn't save Fereldan, and generally be an ass to her.

Plaintiff wrote...

Any time you talk to Elthina or Sebastian, you have the option to be very anti-chantry.

This isn't really the same thing though... You don't have to believe in the faith to be respectful to someone. Telling Elthina that the Maker didn't save Ferelden is really the only option in this regard. By comparison, DAO had a few moments where you could either voice your own disbelief, "stay silent" as others offered up their own prayer (such as after the Battle for Redcliffe), or respond in the appropriate way with "so let it be," or other such remarks.

And too, being against a religious organization (the Chantry) is also not the same as being an athiest. There are many people of faith who practice by and to themselves and don't feel they need an intermediary between themselves and God. That is their prerogative. Bringing this back to Dragon Age, Hawke's parents certainly could have brought her up in the Andrastian faith, but (and especially) having been raised by a mage, and perhaps even being a mage herself, might not look kindly on the Chantry as an institution.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't recall any instance where Hawke proclaims to believe in the Maker, nor any instance where (s)he flat-out denies the existence of that entity. As such, you an inject whatever level of faith (or lack of) into the character as you so desire. As others have pointed out, you can opt to be anti-Chantry (that is, anti-institution) with the dialogue.

There are some instances where you can just talk to Elthina, and if you don't want to be flat out rude to her ("you're useless"), your only other option is to ask for her blessing.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[lucidfox]

nightscrawl wrote...

There are some instances where you can just talk to Elthina, and if you don't want to be flat out rude to her ("you're useless"), your only other option is to ask for her blessing.

It could easily be interpreted as showing respect for an elder to avoid making her feel useless. If an atheist visits a church, they aren't necessarily going to crush the altars and insult the priests.

There are many people of faith who practice by and to themselves and don't feel they need an intermediary between themselves and God.

Indeed.

*coughlelianacough*

Modifié par lucidfox, 05 avril 2012 - 11:53 .

[TheShadowWolf911]

the heck are you talking about, you could AWLAYS do this in Origins, and a fair amount of lines as for DA2 did this, your asking for something we ALREADY HAD.

[berelinde]

No, in DA2, your choices were pretty much limited to "All hail the Maker" or something incredibly disrespectful, e.g. "You're useless." I missed the "(Remain silent)" of DA:O.

[DJ0000]

Remain silent was a good option, it did create an almost awkward silence aswell but in a way that added to the moment.

[Sharn01]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

the heck are you talking about, you could AWLAYS do this in Origins, and a fair amount of lines as for DA2 did this, your asking for something we ALREADY HAD.

Not really, there was no place in DA2 that I recall you could declare your disbelief in the maker, in fact if you went with a diplomatic Hawke, which thankfully  I did not, you would call out to the maker in battle and make revered references to him.

[whykikyouwhy]

Sharn01 wrote...

Not really, there was no place in DA2 that I recall you could declare your disbelief in the maker, in fact if you went with a diplomatic Hawke, which thankfully  I did not, you would call out to the maker in battle and make revered references to him.

No, Hawke doesn't flat out state that (s)he does not believe, but there are some snarky comments that prompt other characters to chide him/her for not taking things seriously, or something similar. Which is not disbelief, but it does show that Hawke does not always have a solemn regard for the Chantry and the faith.

I played a diplomatic Hawke during my first playthrough and I don't recall any dialogue from the PC that was reverent/faithful in tone, so much as it was respectful. Now, that may be my own interpretation of what was said - you could certainly view those utterances from the opposite stance, with Hawke being a follower of the Maker. 

**Slight spoiler here**
I haven't tracked down the exact dialogue, but there is an exchange between Hawke and Aveline with regard to Wesley. In it, Aveline implies (or maybe she actually states?) that she does not put her faith in the Maker. Yet, in some party banter, she will come out and say "Maker, no!" or some such exclamation. It's indicative of the Maker being part of the common language - he's a known entity, regardless of how a Thedan may feel about him, and thus, he becomes ingrained in the language for curses and blessings and the like, none of which may have actual firm faith behind the words. So as much as IRL some of us may utter "oh god" or "oh my god" nonchalantly, that's how I took a lot of the "Maker" comments from Hawke and company (barring those companions who actually did profess belief).

[RonixisJK]

 There was a scene I got in Act 2 when romancing Merrill (after a certain quest) where she mentions something relating to an afterlife. The response I had that seemed to best fit going along with it (I don't recall the exact options) had Hawke mention something explicitly about the Maker, and I think that's actually the only point I reset after misinterpreting a paraphrase. I mean, in other contexts it probably would sound just somewhat diplomatic, but she's Dalish, so it really doesn't fit for me.

[whykikyouwhy]

RonixisJK wrote...

 There was a scene I got in Act 2 when romancing Merrill (after a certain quest) where she mentions something relating to an afterlife. The response I had that seemed to best fit going along with it (I don't recall the exact options) had Hawke mention something explicitly about the Maker, and I think that's actually the only point I reset after misinterpreting a paraphrase. I mean, in other contexts it probably would sound just somewhat diplomatic, but she's Dalish, so it really doesn't fit for me.

I've seen some videos of that scene, and I always took it as Hawke validating or reaffirming Merrill's afterlife comment, but using the terms applicable to the Andrastian faith. Given the context (who they were talking about), I think it made sense, regardless of how Hawke may personally feel/how players may role-play Hawke. It's more a nod to the person they were discussing.

[Sharn01]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

RonixisJK wrote...

 There was a scene I got in Act 2 when romancing Merrill (after a certain quest) where she mentions something relating to an afterlife. The response I had that seemed to best fit going along with it (I don't recall the exact options) had Hawke mention something explicitly about the Maker, and I think that's actually the only point I reset after misinterpreting a paraphrase. I mean, in other contexts it probably would sound just somewhat diplomatic, but she's Dalish, so it really doesn't fit for me.

I've seen some videos of that scene, and I always took it as Hawke validating or reaffirming Merrill's afterlife comment, but using the terms applicable to the Andrastian faith. Given the context (who they were talking about), I think it made sense, regardless of how Hawke may personally feel/how players may role-play Hawke. It's more a nod to the person they were discussing.

In that conversation your only choices are to show faith in the Maker or be a jerk to Merrill.

[Maria Caliban]

Modern atheism shouldn't really be an option in the setting. Disbelief in the Chantry, criticism of the Chant, and an irreverent attitude toward faith and religion fit. Atheism is a product of secular philosophies and rationality.

The cultural dominance of the Chantry would mean the average human would take the Maker, or the idea of divinity, as natural.

[lx_theo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Modern atheism shouldn't really be an option in the setting. Disbelief in the Chantry, criticism of the Chant, and an irreverent attitude toward faith and religion fit. Atheism is a product of secular philosophies and rationality.

The cultural dominance of the Chantry would mean the average human would take the Maker, or the idea of divinity, as natural.

I was able to say... "I don't believe in the Maker" ... In DA:O. As far as I'm concerned, it means that being athiest is a possible belief to see in the DA world during the time, even if not common. I was lectured quite a bit by the priestest after saying it, so I guess you're right in regards in how many would react to it, but I was still able to do it adn keep that belief as part of my character in DA:O.

[Maria Caliban]

"I don't believe in the Maker" isn't the same as "There is no such thing as the divine." My Dalish elf said the same thing to that priest because he believed in the elven deities.

[The Six Path of Pain]

I miss being a Dalish or Dwarf and and telling off leliana and all the other chantry priests XD

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Modern atheism shouldn't really be an option in the setting. Disbelief in the Chantry, criticism of the Chant, and an irreverent attitude toward faith and religion fit. Atheism is a product of secular philosophies and rationality.

I strongly disagree. Dragon Age has already provided us the option to be atheist in Origins, there are atheist characters, and it's not a replica of medieval times based on the equality of women. I don't see a reason to prohibit atheism as a choice for the player.

[Wrathion]

I played a diplomatic Hawke during my first playthrough and I don't recall any dialogue from the PC that was reverent/faithful in tone, so much as it was respectful. Now, that may be my own interpretation of what was said - you could certainly view those utterances from the opposite stance, with Hawke being a follower of the Maker. 

I've been playing a Diplo Hawke for a couple of weeks now and...he does shout of reverence to the Maker during battle. I've heard him yell "May the Maker guide you" many times when an enemy was killed. I'll go see if I can catch some other ones.

[snackrat]

A lot of the difference is DAO is 'anti-Maker'. DAII is 'anti-Chantry'. There is actually a difference. It's the difference between:

DAO-- I don't believe in God (the Maker)
DA2-- I don't believe YOU SPEAK FOR God (the Maker)

The first is clear where it stands, but the latter is not clear whether the Maker exists or not (in fact, implies he may) - only that, should he exist, the Chantry does not accurately represent him and their beliefs are that of man, not any deity.

So, yes, I can see where the OP is coming from. Hawke can only tell the Chantry off for being hypocritical, or passive, or oppressive, but cannot deny the Maker as an entity directly.

[Nimpe]

The game doesn't force you one way or the other. You can headcanon your character's beliefs anyway you want.

[LobselVith8]

Nimpe wrote...

The game doesn't force you one way or the other. You can headcanon your character's beliefs anyway you want.

The game does force you when Hawke explicitly gives lines of dialogue that make him Andrastian. This has already been addressed above in depth.

[Feathered Chimp]

The funny thing about me is that when I play DA I believe in the maker and what the chantry says about him, but in real life I dont believe at all (I am open minded about it tho).

[Karlone123]

You can look at helping the mages in two ways, it's just plain wrong to lock mages by moral standards, you don't give a fig about chantry law and free mages. It's the Chantry's belief that mages should be locked up and you can be against that.