345 réponses à ce sujet

[Banelash]

Victory through sacrifice? but all the relays are dead and everyone is stuck. More like failure if you asked me. They should have just ignore earth and reapers would have taken another 100 years to finish than all die at that spot.

[TheCrakFox]

Maaaannnn, that guy uses a lot of words to say very little. You'd think someone with a degree in literature might be able to put their thoughts accross more concisely. And he just skips over most of the major problems I had with the ending.

[Xellith]

I wish I could forget the end of the game.. Im hoping that Bioware are going to announce one of those memory eraser MIB things so I can forget about ME completely.

[finalcabbage]

Such a great ending! I mean the way they introduce a brand new character in the last five minutes in order to explain things was so awesome! I wonder why all the scifi and fantasy writers I'm so fond of haven't used similar means to end their series?

[SimonTheFrog]

I love the rant, it's well put.

But the author is clearly coming from literature. And he puts everything in that perspective. He completely leaves out restraints caused by story telling in games (budget, technology etc.), he leaves out tech-lore aspects or gameplay relevant decisions (e.g. talking about Shepards death at the beginning of ME2 purely from a narrative point of view and not because the players needed a reason to reset their stats etc.).
So, basically he uses analytical tools on something that is not fitting the tools. You can do that but it's worth noting.

As a result, i find it very insulting that he says "people don't get it". For such a clever person this is shockingly dumb. HE is not seeing the game as it is: it is a game and not literature. Players are not readers.
Before he gets that, his opinion is not really that relevant for our discussion.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 05 avril 2012 - 12:54 .

[Kalas82]

There`s just so much plain wrong in the first big paragraph bout "sacrifice"...he didn`t get why most people are upset with the way it went down in ME3...it`s not Shep having to sacrifice himself, it`s the way he was made to do it..which lets him stand there as even a bigger moron that Conrad has ever been.

And there`s absolutly no instance where "plotholes" make any sense, expect if you want to fill them later in all of them...and we are not talkin swiss-cheese like ME3.

Good now i`ve spent more time with this "essay"...sorry that guy could literay have worked at the ending, cause he got no knowledge how story-coherence works, what a "dex ex machina" does to a story (especially when it comes out of nowhere and you could give ME3 credit for 2 of that kind), how you don`t just take the story-centre away form the main protagonists or heck even the main antagonist and the "main-plot" in the last 5minutes.
He even condratics himself over and over again, like the writer behind the ending did...wow..you gotta atleast try hard to achieve something like that.

The whole paragraph bout entropy is just hillarious..is this guy for real?

He didn`t even get the main themes of ME1-2 right, nor the simpel gamefeatures which you can`t even escape cause they were all over the place ..magazines, reviews, Bioware PR..heck even the back of retail-box..jesus.

But yeah he stated his credentials ...you know i wrote some essays back when i was 14..am i now more qualified than anyone else to give my opinion?

I realy do respect people who like the ending in it`s current form, it`s their opinion, but as soon you come out and try to explain and prove to me that this ****ty-writing had just 1 thing bout it which made sense (hell even Andersons bullet-wound magicaly switches places) then your whole "i`m an artist and have a degree in literature" means deep **** to me..cause you condraticted yourself there just again.
The only explanation for the ending, if it`s ment to be real in it`s current form, is that the whole part after the beam-hits-shepard-but-doesn`t-magicaly-burn-him-to-pieces-like-it-does-kinda-with-space-ships-thingy is surreal, IT or a baddream, halluzination or Shep is dead and in hell wating for Uwe Boll to join him.
Other than that there`s just bad writing left ..nothing else`.
It doesn`t matter how "good" (lol) your credentials are or how much text you put out...it just gets worse the more you try.

[Thorwind]

Nice points made, shame they all amounted to horse poop. If you're going to start a debate and you are in fact intelligent, stating ''I have a degree in literature and I minored in film studies.'' you're just throwing a piece of paper in your reader's face trying to blind him so he does not see the holes in your logic.

Many of us have certain papers in many areas of expertise but going on the web and smacking people with them while trying to prove a point is going to fail big time.

The man uses many nice words to mark some logic he thought earned while gaining the above mentioned degree (that's about the only thing he does). Yet anybody who bothers to go through the entire damn text and has an objective mind, be him indoctrination theory opportunist, simple hater or worshiper of a debatable failed end will come up to the conclusion that the man hardly has any idea of what he is talking about.


Wishing or imagining the perfect philosophical end to your loved game doesn't mean reality will conform to your wish.

In the end we'll all come to realize they *fracked* up from various reasons (insert here hate for EA, customers or whatever you like), everybody screws up at one point or another, it's life.

I do imagine or I do want to believe, as much as the next ME fan, an indoctrination theory, an absolute philosophy or just another ending, fact is we all know the truth.

Modifié par Thorwind, 05 avril 2012 - 01:36 .

[ZajoE38]

Sinekein wrote...


Moreover, there is no way the Synthesis ending is the good one. You don't sacrifice to save organic life : you decide to merge the synthetics and organics, without giving anyone a choice. Basically, you make the most synthetic choice possible : the "good" (is it really good after all ? There are more than a few great stories - Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell - who say that being only half-human sucks) for everyone, over the right for everyone to decide of his individual fate. No one is able to rebel against this fate. You know, rebelling against the fate : what you've been doing from the beginning of ME1.

It is not the good ending. It's one of the possible ending. There are no morally good or bad endings. You must choose on of the fates (endings) because if you don't, the Reapers will win. Shepard in that moment thinks that it is the best and he sacrifices him self to be processed. So the Crucible can prepare the algorithm from human DNA pattern and combine it with Catalyst's synthetic pettern. Shepard and Catalyst both dissapers means that they are about to be processed. You can't question if synthesis is good or bad. I'd like to see you all how would you decide, if you are about to make a choice affecting every single one being in the galaxy for next few millions of years. And you don't have time to think because while you are deciding Reapers are decimating your Homeworld along with all the military force in the galaxy. Neither of endings are good or bad, they just are.

[Slayer299]

I pretty muchj disaagreed with everything tht author had to say and what I find worse is when people decide that the ending is so 'sophisticated' I can't understand it without someone explaining it to me.

If i can't understand what someone has written whether it is a game or movie or book than that is a complete failure on the part of the writer, not me and that is what that person was saying.

[Nightdragon8]

so first 2 paragraphs... 1 saying if you dont understand the ending then you are too stupid. and 2. the lack of any infomation at the end = a good ending. yea.... sorry not going to put up with that kind of logic.

[Shaigunjoe]

That was pretty good, especially liked the historical perspective at the end.

[Vexia2070]

AtlasMickey wrote...

Thanks for the link!

Good to know there's one more. We will endure.

Cheer, it apears there are at least two on the "its all good bandwagon." Im so happy you both like the game and if they should ever come out with new DLC for the ending, just think, you will have no need to get it if free or buy it if not.

ROTFLMAO!!!

[Qutayba]

The best defenses of the ending I've seen succeed AT MOST in pinpointing what the writers were trying to do, i.e. the great and interesting Big Idea that's behind the ending. And I'd have to agree that they were trying to do something really interesting and bold. But the fact that so many players walked away from the ending in disquiet and despair indicates that the execution of the Big Idea failed miserably.

Mass Effect fans are a pretty intelligent bunch overall. They appreciate quality and depth. I think plenty of us saw what they were TRYING to do, but we also saw what they actually did. In the rest of the game we also saw how BioWare knows how to wrap a Big Idea within a satisfying narrative successfully. It's like watching a flawless Olympic gymnast falter catastrophically on the landing. You want to fight with the judges to let them try again, because you know they can do it right.

Modifié par Qutayba, 05 avril 2012 - 01:21 .

[ZajoE38]

I agree with every 3 aspects of this explanation. In fact, I understood the ending almost identical. But my playthrought took 48 hours and I was repeating many dialogues. And I have no degree in literature, I just have ears, eyes, memory and I am not stubborn one-way thinker.

[pfellahX]

The big meta-problem is the presumption by the author that we don't understand Shepard "has" to die... again, it's laced with the assumption that people want a rainbows-and-unicorns ending. I'm sure there are some who want that, but I imagine many of us would be OK with a Shepard sacrifice ending if it represented real choice. A - Shepard dies, galaxy ambiguously screwed; B - Shepard dies, galaxy ambiguously screwed; C - Shepard dies, galaxy ambiguously screwed is not the sort of choice we were hoping for.

I think it also underestimates what sets gaming apart from other media -- playing vs. watching. Agency is big in video games. Take that away, you're basically telling the player their choice doesn't matter and they might as well be watching a $60 DVD.

[Sun Tzglyph]

The Angry One wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The lengths people are going to in order to rationalize or make sense of this mess gets more absurd by the day. How come people can't just accept the fact that it was rushed and poorly written.

Because if you can convince yourself you liked it, you can convince yourself that everybody who doesn't like it just doesn't understand it and hence you are smarter.

And vice-versa.

[lumen11]

lumen11 wrote...

Heavvy Metall wrote...

ProtoPWS wrote...

Link: 
http://www.escapistm...-great-spoilers 

Like many of you, after finishing Mass Effect 3 I've turned to the internet to discuss the storyline and see what other people think of the game. I really did not like the ending at all.... until I stumbled onto this analysis. The author does a really good job of explaining the themes of the storyline and why the ending fits with those themes. As much as I hated the ending before, since reading that post I did a replay of the game and came away with a much better feeling. Sorry for not posting the full text but it's extremely long and I did not write it so a link will have to do.

So were the massive plot holes put in on purpose? 

Could someone please refer me to a decent review of the plotholes everyone keeps mentioning. I still don't get what everyone is talking about.

I have seen the youtube-video I think many refer too - from the guy who is initially quite happy, but then feels there is a lot missing. I don't believe he really found any plotholes, though, just open-endedness. So I'm wondering if there is other stuff?

Ok, so since my last post I watched this video:

Trentgamer wrote...

Also, here is an excellent video about why exactly the ending fails so badly. www.youtube.com/watch

However, this guy gets the genre analysis wrong from the start, which informed his whole take on the matter I think, so yeah.

His character focus point is just weird, because I can't believe a guy who puts so much thought into an analysis didn't properly consider that maybe the Reapers did have a more complex goal than harvesting. He's a scifi fan for crying out loud.

And then he mentions some potential plotholes about the ending choices being unclear, but that seems to be mostly him misunderstanding. So, yes, the ending is vague, but that's still no plothole.

When he finally does get to a list of plotholes he overlays the audio for dramatic effect, but which makes it impossible to actually hear the actual plotholes (btw.: I think the Reapers really didn't know about the crucible until the Illusive Man informed them).

So, my request stands, can someone please refer me to a proper analysis of plotholes?

[Thorwind]

Mass Effect is just what the name is saying, the mass effect as a responce to a foreign intervention (created chaos, you know them as reapers) in the rather ordinary chaos of evolution and life.
Action, reaction and free will..the massive effect as in all emotions, thoughts, actions and consequences...not just 3 main themes or whatever....honestly, the theme with Jesus? come on...*this ain't Church*

When trying to portray all that in a single coherent end and you go about not carring or just rush it you end up with the gaps we have in the last 15 minute of ME3.

[lumen11]

Thorwind wrote...

....honestly, the theme with Jesus? come on...*this ain't Church*

Are you serious? You have never encoutered the Messianic archetype outside of a Church?

[Thorwind]

lumen11 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

....honestly, the theme with Jesus? come on...*this ain't Church*

Are you serious? You have never encoutered the Messianic archetype outside of a Church?

I did but this is a a game, an entertainment medium, a way to imagine the unimaginable the way you want it based on your choice, it's not a book where you are going only on the lines the author wants...do you feel entertained when watching a movie about the life of Christ?

[Ghurshog]

ProtoPWS wrote...

Link: 
http://www.escapistm...-great-spoilers 

Like many of you, after finishing Mass Effect 3 I've turned to the internet to discuss the storyline and see what other people think of the game. I really did not like the ending at all.... until I stumbled onto this analysis. The author does a really good job of explaining the themes of the storyline and why the ending fits with those themes. As much as I hated the ending before, since reading that post I did a replay of the game and came away with a much better feeling. Sorry for not posting the full text but it's extremely long and I did not write it so a link will have to do.

I would disagree.

Remove the Deus Ex from my Mass Effect.

[ZajoE38]

Ghurshog wrote...

ProtoPWS wrote...

Link: 
http://www.escapistm...-great-spoilers 

Like many of you, after finishing Mass Effect 3 I've turned to the internet to discuss the storyline and see what other people think of the game. I really did not like the ending at all.... until I stumbled onto this analysis. The author does a really good job of explaining the themes of the storyline and why the ending fits with those themes. As much as I hated the ending before, since reading that post I did a replay of the game and came away with a much better feeling. Sorry for not posting the full text but it's extremely long and I did not write it so a link will have to do.

I would disagree.

Remove the Deus Ex from my Mass Effect.

Personally I don't mind the Deus Ex style endings. Both games has this endings and both are awe-inspiring. In case of ME3 it's one of three endings or reapers wins. And reapers won when you were hesitating to take a choice - critical mission failure. I think it means that from that point on, the fleets are decimated and galaxy stand a zero chance.

[TGOW]

"Now, this series has a variety of themes but the main overarching themes as I see it are: (1) Sacrifice for the greater good (2) Entropy, as Yahtzee puts it (3) forgiveness."
No. Just no.

[pistolols]

Didn't read the analysis.. it didn't grab my attention in the first paragraph or so.  But anyone that actually paid attention while playing the game should have seen the ending fit right in just fine.  The themes involved are discussed at great length throughout the game, and also in the previous games.  And to be honest i have not been impressed by any of the communities' alleged plot holes but then again i also feel i have a better understanding of the catalyst than most.

[Fulgrim88]

I think his chain of argumentation is somewhat...lacking.

First: It is incomplete. It follows a pattern of "You think it's bad, and I can see why you feel that way, but it's actually great. [Because.....?]"
He somewhat skips that last part. One would think that he catches up on that later, but this really concludes the first part of his "analysis" He's assuming that covering what he personally believes to be the main themes of the series would answer that part, but there's so much more to it than that (lack of choice, lack of diversity, lack of quality ). By that, his "in depth" analysis, while lengthy, fails to adress major points and is doomed from the start

Second: He then picks the "Main themes of the series" pretty much at a whim.
Personal Sacrifice? "Supports the point I'm trying to make, hence why it's a core theme."
Survival against all odds? "Naaah that kinda goes against what I'm trying to say. Let's sweep it under the rug."

Third: He contradicts himself rather frequently. One has to question the point of defending an endings "greatness" if every second sentence grudgingly admits that it all felt somewhat rushed, low quality etc.

Try again

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 05 avril 2012 - 02:34 .