345 réponses à ce sujet

[Szubie]

Excellent article, gave voice to my feelings about the ending mostly. I definitely saw self sacrifice and repeating cycles in ME3 and appreciated those themes in the ending. Forgiveness is interesting, it didn't occur to me before, but it does also make sense.

[Mixon]

Trentgamer wrote...

Hmm I don't agree. The very fact that I would need to read some analysis to enjoy or understand the ending (which I still think is so full of holes it's not funny) just makes it all the more apparent how poorly done it was.

+1

[lumen11]

Thorwind wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

....honestly, the theme with Jesus? come on...*this ain't Church*

Are you serious? You have never encoutered the Messianic archetype outside of a Church?

I did but this is a a game, an entertainment medium, a way to imagine the unimaginable the way you want it based on your choice, it's not a book where you are going only on the lines the author wants...do you feel entertained when watching a movie about the life of Christ?

The Messianic archetype isn't the same as the biblical figure. Let me ask you, were you entertained by The Matrix?

[Thorwind]

lumen11 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

....honestly, the theme with Jesus? come on...*this ain't Church*

Are you serious? You have never encoutered the Messianic archetype outside of a Church?

I did but this is a a game, an entertainment medium, a way to imagine the unimaginable the way you want it based on your choice, it's not a book where you are going only on the lines the author wants...do you feel entertained when watching a movie about the life of Christ?

The Messianic archetype isn't the same as the biblical figure. Let me ask you, were you entertained by The Matrix?

Actually no, I was not, the only thing that entertained me was"..there is no spoon.." as for the Messianic figure, well, by his own words he specifically mentioned the biblical figure, did you actually read his wall text?

Here let me remind you with a direct quote from his text.

Finally in regards to this overarching theme, I
also feel it's pretty clear they are making Shepard into a Christ like
figure. Susan Arendt on the escapist podcast, seems extremely against
this idea. She believes that it just doesn't fit her character.
Whether it fits your character or not really doesn't matter, I find it
very hard to argue that Bioware was not attempting to allude to this.
In the very last scene you are being referred to as "The Shepard." It's
clear that Shepard has become this Christ like figure who is now
worshipped in the far flung future. If Bioware's writers didn't want
this connotation they wouldn't have said, "The Shepard." I mean your
character's name is even named Shepard, which alone carries with it an
allusion to a religious figure.

Think he's talking about the same biblical figure I was arguing about, or just your random idea of the Messianic archetype?...I would think he was talking about Christ himself (yes the biblical figure), mentioning his name and all.


EDIT: typo

Modifié par Thorwind, 05 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[VoodooDrackus]

Excellent analysis. Great points.

It actually did change my reluctance to choose synthesis.

[lumen11]

Thorwind wrote...

Think he's talking about the same biblical figure I was arguing about, or just your random idea of the Messianic archetype?...I would think he was talking about Christ himself (yes the biblical figure), mentioning his name and all.

'Christ-like figure', 'allusion to the bible'. The Messianic archetype = a 'Christ-like figure'. There are varying degrees, of course, to which a character can conform to the archetype, but it always constitutes an allusion to the bible, whether you notice it or not.

So, no Matrix fan. Let me see if I can get you with something else.

The Wheel of Time
The Dark Knight (Nolan's)
Doctor Who
Dragon Ball
Star Wars
Supernatural
Great Gatsby

Courtesy of tvtropes.org. I picked a few I know myself.

Modifié par lumen11, 06 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[Thorwind]

By naming Christ he makes a direct and rather visual reference to Christ himself...that part rubbed me the wrong way the first tine, hence why I mentioned Church. He didn't say Messianic archetype he said Christ like figure, which brings you to what I was saying, could almost visualize Shepard on a cross...I don't know about you but I can't find a place for Christ in this game, not with this level of choice (in the entire series). Christ had his destiny set even before he was born (or so the Bible says, if you believe that stuff), I doubt Shepard had the same view of things.

He comes to this conclusion from what exactly? A theme of sacrifice?, many people have sacrificed for the greater good without ending up being called a Christ like figure, you can even see Shep as a samurai, always serving\\protecting\\waring\\sacrificing himself and anybody else that stand in his way\\etc, a servant for the people...but Christ? please.

Maybe were having this discussion because I'm not making myself clear enough, but then again I do not have a degree in literature and a minor in films....guess that's why his points appear more valid than logic.

Anyway point of view there, point of view here, everybody has one...but there is a verz huge difference between Christ like figure and Messianic archetype

Edit: got me there with Star Wars

Modifié par Thorwind, 06 avril 2012 - 11:40 .

[Shepard Wins]

I've also encountered a great analysis of why the ending was well done. It's called the indoctrination theory.

[flameshield activated]

[IGoosI]

OK

"I find all these arguments to be ludicrous. No tonal shift exists here; the ending clearly follows the themes of the narrative."

No tonal shift? You'd need to be deaf and blind to think this. The ending clearly follows the themes of the narrative? To some degree yes but it butchers it in the process.

Couldn't even bring myself to take it serious enough to read the rest after that.

p.s.

"considering that a lot of people on forums and articles seem to hate the ending because they don't understand what the theme of the game is"

WRONG I understand it entirely. Also IT WAS CHANGED.

To be honest the degree this guy claims to have... Those email degrees aint real dude.

Modifié par IGoosI, 06 avril 2012 - 11:48 .

[Sparse]

Well as he actually picked quite a few holes in the ending it is hardly an analysis of why the ending was well done.

He actually says it was badly executed but wasn't total crap.

[Tessah]

And... here... we... go! . hehehe ho hi he ho he hi ho ha and And I thought my jokes were bad.

[Bob3terd]

i dont care what bioware intended, i care they failed in its execution.

[TyDurden13]

I love it when people begin their posts with "FYI I have a degree in film studies/ literature/ whathaveyou. Always good for a laugh.

[Xandurpein]

I don't agree with the interpretation of Shepard's action in the linked article, but I that doesn't mean it isn't a valid one. I concede that it is perfectly possible to imagine your Shepard as a reluctantly messianic figure, and some things in the game's end probably make a lot more sense if you do, but that is just one way to imagine things. Everyone have their own image of what makes "their" Shepard act. The author even admits that it's important to have a particular frame of mind to interpret things "correctly". This is however still a RPG, and one of the cardinal rules of a successful RPG is that it allows for everyone to make the hero "their".

This brings me to a wider critizism of Mass Effect 3. In many ways, it feels as if Bioware took away Shepard from me in ME3. Responses limited to only the Paragon/Renegade two, longer conversations with no player input and so on. Feeling railroaded in the ending was in some ways the straw that broke the camel's back.

Maybe part of the problem was that Casey Hudson got too enamoured of his Shepard and forgot about those who played a very different Shepard.

[clarkusdarkus]

im pretty sure they didnt further jesus's story in the bible with dlc

[sp0ck 06]

Good article, I don't agree with all the interpretations, and I think the theme of the series was more about order vs chaos, intelligent design vs evolutionary freedom, and teh nature of time.

But he is right that saying none of our choices mattered is false. We simply were not shown the ramifications of our choices. It doesn't mean they were meaningless.

[TeffexPope]

Here's what bothers me about Shepard dying, and being told that a "happy ending" with him alive would be lame and perhaps cliche. Just think of all the things Shepard has survived! The guy died once, only to be resurrected. Obviously, for the trilogy thing to work, he needs to stay alive the entire game. So why is it a necessity that an ending result in him dying? Because its the end of the series? THAT to me, is lame. He's beaten death once. He had a lot of things go his way, a lot of luck, that resulted in him surviving throughout the trilogy (as EDI says, the fact that Shepard has survived so long is amazing.) So then Bioware should write in a death for him? The nuke that was set on Virmire had an alarm go off at just the perfect moment that distracted Saren while he had Shepard by his neck over a long fall and allowed Shepard to break free of Saren's grasp. On the Geth dreadnaught alone he avoided being crushed by a door, avoided a long fall to his death when the squad was traveling up an elevator, and got to the fighter that the squad used to escape at just the right time. He faced down a damn reaper destroyer, one on one by himself. Apparently Reapers are near invincible, but can't hit a target given a wide targeting vector and while the target is basically trapped.

If he's to survive things like that, I don't see how I'm off base in wanting an ending where Shepard can live.

Modifié par TeffexPope, 06 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[Captain Arty]

"The fact that people think a tonal shift occurs in the ending because Shepard dies and in all their previous missions they survived is ludicrous. The entire series has been pointing to Shepard having to die in the end. I've noticed some people say the theme is "A Hero's Journey" and therefore Shepard doesn't need to die, because it's about them always triumphing."

This quote from the article is exactly what is wrong with the entire thesis. The article is suggesting that our logical complaint is with crew members dying or Sheperd dying. That is not our complaint.

Our complaint is that the theme of the game is unity. The catalyst reverses that theme. Synthesis is anti-unity. It's homogeneity. It is the removal of all diversity. That is counter to the theme of the game. In no ending, either by sacrificing Sheperd or surviving, can the primary theme of uniting and protecting diverse species be preserved.

This article fails to understand the basic arguments we're making against the ending. I'm not sure where this guy got his literature and film degrees, but he should get his money back or reread our arguments.

Modifié par Captain Arty, 06 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[AwesomeDudex64]

So we need a hardcore analysis to explain why the ending is good? dafuq?
That ending had more holes than swizz cheese and contradicted the entire theme- How is that good?

[Myrmedus]

If a - as quoted - "Very Long Analysis" is a pre-requisite for an ending to be 'good' then it's not good.

[Caz Tirin]

lumen11 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

Think he's talking about the same biblical figure I was arguing about, or just your random idea of the Messianic archetype?...I would think he was talking about Christ himself (yes the biblical figure), mentioning his name and all.

'Christ-like figure', 'allusion to the bible'. The Messianic archetype = a 'Christ-like figure'. There are varying degrees, of course, to which a character can conform to the archetype, but it always constitutes an allusion to the bible, whether you notice it or not.

So, no Matrix fan. Let me see if I can get you with something else.

The Wheel of Time
Doctor Who

I'm not seeing the Wheel of Time messianic connection.  I'm waiting (not so patiently hehe) for the last book and I've yet to see anything that says he will actually die.  After everything else in the prophecies has come to pass in ways that weren't what everyone interpretted them as, I can't put the "messiah" label on it yet.  We'll see next year.

And.... Doctor Who?  wtf?