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[Sable Phoenix]

I think the range of emotions elicited from the various players is just evidence of how well crafted and well written this game is.

I experienced a ridiculously intense series of emotions during my first playthrough, mostly centered around the Landsmeet and deciding the royal succession.  My mage character was in love with Alistair, but, and this actually surprised me, turned out to have a strong pragmatic streak that made her suggest a marriage between Alistair and Anora.  Not once but twice.  It was a very wierd experience, watching her do something I didn't actually want her to do, for the good of Ferelden.  I'm not sure I can explain it, but that was more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Of course, by convincing Alistair to become king, she caused him to reject her... for the good of Ferelden.  He knew his duty was to produce a royal heir.  The irony was extremely bitter.

Even with all that, she didn't hesitate one second to turn down Morrigan.

And it was even more bitter that her refusal to give up Alistair at Anora's demand resulted in Anora backstabbing them in front of the entire Landsmeet.  Which was a kick in the gut, watching her sacrifice everything she desired and getting nothing for it.  She ended up letting Alistair execute Loghain because at that point she didn't care any more.

And then, since heartbreak was piled upon the fatalism she'd been fighting with ever since finding out Grey Wardens only get about thirty years after Joining, she took the blow on the Archdemon.

It was a tragic story, and the ending was both profoundly unsatisfying and profoundly satisfying all at once.  I've never agonized over decisions in a computer game the way I did with Dragon Age, and it left me feeling vaguely sad, and oddly drained, at the end.  I've gone through all the origins since then, but it's tough to commit to one for another playthrough.  It was like the story wrung me out like a wet rag and I have to take some time to recover.

Dragon Age is definitely the most emotionally engrossing game since Planescape:Torment.  It lacks the kick-in-the-stomach type of impact that KOTOR's big plot twist had when meeting Malak on the Leviathan, but its intensity is of a different kind.  For example, my mage betrayed Jowan in the origin; only partially of her own volition.  And upon opening the door in Andraste's crypt to see him standing there, I literally sat for five minutes screwing up my courage to confront his spectre.  I then walked in steeled for the just vilification of the apparition taken from my own mind, and instead got a speech about him forgiving me, and that I needed to forgive myself.  It was so completely opposed to what I expected that it almost broke me down and I had to sit afterwards for another couple minutes to collect myself.

The writing in Dragon Age is some of the best in any computer RPG.  I would say it's easily within the top three or four of all time.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[Never]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SleepyBird wrote...


I'm also deeply frustrated that male characters are given an option of following a storyline where their life can be saved by their romantic subplot (morally ambiguous though it may be) and female characters are given no equivalent option.  Asking Alistair to sleep with Morrigan is NOT the same and the writers must know that.  This feels like I played throgh 70 hours of a truly wonderful game only to be told that the end "Whoops, sorry, you were supposed to be a dude."  It's a kind of a big middle finger to the entire female gaming commity.

I hate to nitpick about the ending details when I so throughly enjoyed the rest of the game, but I just finished the game and am feeling so very let down at the moment. 

Am I overreacting or did anyone else feel this way?

Yeah right, you really suffer.  Aside from the fact that you actually get to marry the person your character supposedly loves AND get to be queen whereas males have to ditch their best bud Al, basically backstab him, and marry some backstabbing harpy to get to be king, losing their love interest on the way...oh wait...

Females get it much easier, and at lower cost.

I think it's a shoddy situation for males and females, but as far as this goes ^  the only way you can marry him is if you play a human noble.  You don't get to be queen unless you do the ritual as well.

[rumination888]

SleepyBird wrote...

I'm also deeply frustrated that male characters are given an option of following a storyline where their life can be saved by their romantic subplot (morally ambiguous though it may be) and female characters are given no equivalent option.  Asking Alistair to sleep with Morrigan is NOT the same and the writers must know that.  This feels like I played throgh 70 hours of a truly wonderful game only to be told that the end "Whoops, sorry, you were supposed to be a dude."  It's a kind of a big middle finger to the entire female gaming commity.

Its not the writers fault you chose to romance Alistair instead of Zevran.

[Korva]

I just woke up after staying up way too long last night to finish this game for the first time as a human noble warrior (sword & board, Templar/Champion). *rubs eyes* It was totally worth feeling zombified now.

I have my gripes with the game, some of them serious, but overall Bioware really did deliver. There were many emotional and intense moments, and the atmosphere in the endgame in particular was just about perfect. Hats off and big kudos to the writers.

The Landsmeet decision was something I thought about for a while. Alistair doesn't want the throne -- I didn't "harden" him because seriously, changing his character based on a single line my character wouldn't say to a friend, especially in that situation, doesn't feel logical. Anora does -- but she struck me about extremely untrustworthy and too good at hiding that behind her pretty and smooth facade. A marriage between the two might work best -- but could my character saddle a friend with that scheming snake of a "queen"? She does not worship the Theirin bloodline like Arl Eamon does, and did not want Alistair unhappy, but she is very big on duty and did have faith in his ability to mature and become a good leader for his people. So she chose him.

Killing Loghain was surprisingly hard because of how he went from crazed hateful ranting to almost relieved acceptance and said goodbye to his daughter. Wow, I really did not expect that. That earned him some real respect -- unlike Howe, that filth, who was hateful and arrogant to the last breath.

Riordan's revelation about the archdemon was disturbing yet it made me smile because from the start I WANTED this character's story to end with a true warrior's death. Smooth and easy endings without any real effort or sacrifice bore me. This was perfect, even better than the Calling that the Wardens normally get. Needless to say I turned Morrigan down. That disgusting b*tch -- I'd ignored her for much of the game because I could not stand her, until I decided to give all companions a chance. So I did favors for her, she called me her first friend which was actually moving. So much for that. No way my character would take the coward's way out or give someone like Morrigan any more power. I seriously regret having done anything for her.

And then, the endgame ...

The cutscene of the armies marching out was where I first choked up. The music, Eamon's words, seeing all these brave people. Then Alistair's speech to the army before the charge on Denerim. He was good. If there were doubts that he can be a fine leader, that dispelled them. Then the charge. Holy cow, I was all fired up to slaughter the darkspawn, and had tears in my eyes at the same time. Then the moving farewells with my companions. Oghren actually made me laugh there; aside from dear Wynne he had the best lines. My usual party through the game had been Dog, Leliana and Wynne, but as per Riordan's advice I took Alistair and said goodbye to my poor faithful unhappy mabari ...

Riordan's death was sad to see, though hardly unexpected. Drama dictates a recently-introduced non-joinable NPC can't make the final sacrifice so we get off scot-free, after all. But whoa, the guy sure had guts jumping on the archdemon like that.

The final battle had me on the edge of my seat. I called in the Dalish for support and did my best to let as few of them die as possible. Seeing Eamon and Irving show up to help made me smile and sure took some heat off my back when the lesser darkspawn came to help their master. Overall, I was expecting the archdemon to be harder ... I'll definitely play at least on Hard next time.

And then the damnable thing went down, and Alistair wanted to take the fall. No way, buddy. You are the king. And my warrior would never have let anyone die in her place. The cutscene of the archdemon's death and the darkspawn breaking ranks was kickass, I actually cheered. And Mayat Cousland got the awesome hero's death I always wanted for her.

The epilogue was very good, too. I loved Alistair's speech and the idea of being entombed in a special place of honor with the four other Wardens who had struck the killing blow on an archdemon. Seeing that big brother Fergus had survived was lovely, but I really wish he had shown a little more emotion there for his younger sister. He's probably done all his grieving already ... still, there could have been a bit more from him. Overall, I am very satisfied with how things turned out in Ferelden after the final battle. There was more than enough "light" to make my character's sacrifice worth it in spades, but no unrealistic fairy tale "and everyone lived happily ever after". The companion epilogues were good, too, except for the glaring absence of a single word about my poor mabari! Again, Oghren in particular surprised me -- his was settling down sober and married, and crying as he named his firstborn daughter after my character. That choked me up, again, and definitely earned him a place in a future playthrough.

And then it was over. It's satisfying, sad and a relief all at once.

Sorry for the rambling wall of text. But I'm still really basking in the afterglow of the endgame. <3

Modifié par Korva, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:35 .

[MusukoYo]

I now play to ****** Alistair off because my mage loved him so much and he left her like she was nothing.

I thought I was the only one who felt this way.

On my first playthrough, I was a female human mage. I made some very amoral choices; my long term goals could be considered "noble," but I didn't mind doing some fairly nasty things in the short term to advance my plans (i.e., siding with the merchant in Lothering, bullying that orphan kid into giving me his father's sword in Redcliffe, etc).

But as mean as I was, I coddled Alistair. I had no idea that pulling my punches with Goldanna would keep me from staying on as his mistress at the game's end, as I had no illusions about reigning as a reviled mage queen. After supporting him as king (that **** Anora threw me to Ser Cauthrien, the hardest fight in the game IMO, but one that I finally beat), he just up and dumped me. Some people might consider that a hallmark of his idealism and honor, but to me, it just smacked of selfishness. He dumped me so abruptly and coldly to make it easier on himself, after all those sweet nothings about wanting me to be his first and last. Bastard.

On my second playthrough as a male Dalish elf warrior, I romanced Zevran, supported Anora 100% (and wasn't backstabbed at all this time around, which was nice), and threw Alistair at the archdemon. My only regret on that count was upsetting Morrigan, my BFF.
Suck it, Alistair. Suck it.

Zevran's a lot harder to get to love you, but once he does, he even says, "I am yours." The epilogue hints that, if you choose to wander instead of returning to the Grey Wardens, it won't last forever. But it doesn't say outright that the relationship breaks down, and I can't really picture Zevran dumping the PC like Alistair does.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

SleepyBird wrote...

Just finished my first playthrough as well, and have extremely mixed feelings about how it all went down.  I played as female Dalish elf, pursued the romance with Alistair, had him made king, refused Morrigan's offer, and had to watch him sacrifice himself for me in the end.

Overall the quality of the writing in the game is superb, so it was crushing to wind up with such an unsatisfying conclusion.  The backstabbing b**** gets to be queen?  And no one says boo about the fact that I just lost the man I was supposedly in love with?  Huzzah, I'm the hero, never mind that my heart is broken?  I just would have appreciated a little nod to the pathos of the situation.

I'm also deeply frustrated that male characters are given an option of following a storyline where their life can be saved by their romantic subplot (morally ambiguous though it may be) and female characters are given no equivalent option.  Asking Alistair to sleep with Morrigan is NOT the same and the writers must know that.  This feels like I played throgh 70 hours of a truly wonderful game only to be told that the end "Whoops, sorry, you were supposed to be a dude."  It's a kind of a big middle finger to the entire female gaming commity.

I hate to nitpick about the ending details when I so throughly enjoyed the rest of the game, but I just finished the game and am feeling so very let down at the moment. 

Am I overreacting or did anyone else feel this way?

I think you are being an ass, personally. The woman gets to have her man take one for the team and they can live happily ever after depending on your choices. The man gets to have the love of his life leave.... Forever. Or betray his lover for one night (Zevran or Leliana) and then have his child away from him... Forever. At least you get a Zevran or Leliana option to just make it Alistair's problem.

So yea, I think you are overreacting and making it a sexist issue when it isn't one at all. Morrigan was the opt out option. Thus she either sleeps with the PC or Alistair. If you aren't a man, guess what? It's Alistair taking one for the team. Of course, you don't give a DAMN about his feelings, you're worried about yours. How quaint.

He didn't want to be king. He didn't want to sleep with Morrigan. He didn't want any of this and it is your job as the PC to bully him through all these choices he really doesn't want to do. Sorry if I can't muster sympathy for your horrid plight that your man had to have sex with a woman he HATES to save your bacon.

Meanwhile, my first playthrough had to lose the woman he loves and his child because she asked him so earnestly.

Cry me a river and then get over it. /rant

[MusukoYo]

Needless to say I turned Morrigan down. That disgusting b*tch -- I'd ignored her for much of the game because I could not stand her, until I decided to give all companions a chance. So I did favors for her, she called me her first friend which was actually moving. So much for that. No way my character would take the coward's way out or give someone like Morrigan any more power. I seriously regret having done anything for her.

Why is it that most women seem to hate Morrigan? As I said in my previous post, I considered her my BFF while playing through on my mage. Sure, she's a ****, but I can't really see myself being a nice person either if I was raised in a swamp by a demon, and I find it hard to fault people when I'd act the same way in their circumstances. Anyways, if you play your cards right, she's YOUR ****: backing you up as a powerful ally and friend.

Not wanting to die if you don't have to is... a coward's way out? Sorry, but I don't follow your reasoning. In some cases, it's clear that your actions will result in others' great suffering for a pittance of gain: for example, striking a bargain with the desire demon and allowing it to reclaim Connor at a later date. I found that inexcusable. But I don't think that sparing the archdemon's spirit and allowing it to be cleansed is at all comparable. I didn't approve of the Chantry (just look at how they handle mages, apostates, and templars), and I don't think that allowing Morrigan to raise the child would be any worse than allowing the Chantry to remain in place, exercising its power over so many lives as judge, jury, and executioner.

Morrigan has demonstrated an unparalleled level of perceptiveness (for example, she's the only one who realizes what's going on in the Fade in the mages' tower), and she doesn't make deals with demons (she doesn't even give Connor's demon a chance to talk), period. So when she makes a case for something, I listen. I, for one, found her argument for sparing the old god's spirit and cleansing it of the taint to be persuasive. If she were at all sympathetic to demons, it'd be one thing, but as I see it, she wants to bring about both a challenge to the Chantry's status quo, and a powerful opponent in the ongoing struggle against demons and darkspawn. That sounds good to me. It sounds great, actually.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

MusukoYo wrote...

Needless to say I turned Morrigan down. That disgusting b*tch -- I'd ignored her for much of the game because I could not stand her, until I decided to give all companions a chance. So I did favors for her, she called me her first friend which was actually moving. So much for that. No way my character would take the coward's way out or give someone like Morrigan any more power. I seriously regret having done anything for her.

Why is it that most women seem to hate Morrigan? As I said in my previous post, I considered her my BFF while playing through on my mage. Sure, she's a ****, but I can't really see myself being a nice person either if I was raised in a swamp by a demon, and I find it hard to fault people when I'd act the same way in their circumstances. Anyways, if you play your cards right, she's YOUR ****: backing you up as a powerful ally and friend.

Not wanting to die if you don't have to is... a coward's way out? Sorry, but I don't follow your reasoning. In some cases, it's clear that your actions will result in others' great suffering for a pittance of gain: for example, striking a bargain with the desire demon and allowing it to reclaim Connor at a later date. I found that inexcusable. But I don't think that sparing the archdemon's spirit and allowing it to be cleansed is at all comparable. I didn't approve of the Chantry (just look at how they handle mages, apostates, and templars), and I don't think that allowing Morrigan to raise the child would be any worse than allowing the Chantry to remain in place, exercising its power over so many lives as judge, jury, and executioner.

Morrigan has demonstrated an unparalleled level of perceptiveness (for example, she's the only one who realizes what's going on in the Fade in the mages' tower), and she doesn't make deals with demons (she doesn't even give Connor's demon a chance to talk), period. So when she makes a case for something, I listen. I, for one, found her argument for sparing the old god's spirit and cleansing it of the taint to be persuasive. If she were at all sympathetic to demons, it'd be one thing, but as I see it, she wants to bring about both a challenge to the Chantry's status quo, and a powerful opponent in the ongoing struggle against demons and darkspawn. That sounds good to me. It sounds great, actually.

If it is any consolation, my wife is very cool with Morrigan.

[Zekebugs]

I just wanted to point out to SleepyBird that if she were a Human Noble... she could rule as Alistair's queen. She was a Dalish elf... and you know... people hate the elves. I could see racial tension sparking a civil war if an elf were to be on the throne. So no, despite my Elven Mage being a paragon of virtue, I am not too upset that she can't take her rightful place on the throne. She is a bigger person than that.

*wipes a tear away* She's such a good person... I love her.

[Zekebugs]

Ach. Totally slow on the draw there. I really should stop getting distracted by shiny things.

[MusukoYo]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
If it is any consolation, my wife is very cool with Morrigan.

She's sensible, then! I found Morrigan to be a woman after my own heart, myself. I liked the fact that, even though I netted quite a bit of disapproval from her in my two playthroughs, it was easy to placate her and bring her approval back up. I actually got her to 100 approval before Alistair even when I was actively romancing him.

Sure, I was fairly annoyed that she wanted me to sacrifice a whole room full of elves for a puny constitution bonus and a hell of a lot of negative karma and disapproval from other party members. It just doesn't make sense to accuse Loghain of collaborating with slavers, then turn around and sacrifice all of the enslaved elves with blood magic (besides, why would I want power from someone whose ass I just whooped?). That'd make me look like a huge monster in comparison at the Landsmeet if word ever got out. But apart from that, she seemed very pragmatic.

Alistair getting pissed with me no matter how I resolve the Redcliffe thing is... well, very human, but even more annoying. Especially when you ask him what you should've done and he can't give you any answers. Waiting for the circle mages and templars to come would've resulted in the loss of even more lives for the exact same outcome (templars deal with apostates and abominations by killing them, after all).

[Pellegrin]

What I enjoy is that this game is a mix of non-linear Oblivion/Fallout games with no storyline and the typical Final Fantasy game with no freedom. You pretty much have a set of tasks to do but how you go about them is up to you.



I don't really feel like the story is anything worthwhile but the lore and characters make the world believable. This is the first RPG I've replayed in a long time because the story is interesting enough to keep me engrossed but there's enough freedom to let me experience it in a different manner.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

MusukoYo wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
If it is any consolation, my wife is very cool with Morrigan.

She's sensible, then! I found Morrigan to be a woman after my own heart, myself. I liked the fact that, even though I netted quite a bit of disapproval from her in my two playthroughs, it was easy to placate her and bring her approval back up. I actually got her to 100 approval before Alistair even when I was actively romancing him.

Sure, I was fairly annoyed that she wanted me to sacrifice a whole room full of elves for a puny constitution bonus and a hell of a lot of negative karma and disapproval from other party members. It just doesn't make sense to accuse Loghain of collaborating with slavers, then turn around and sacrifice all of the enslaved elves with blood magic (besides, why would I want power from someone whose ass I just whooped?). That'd make me look like a huge monster in comparison at the Landsmeet if word ever got out. But apart from that, she seemed very pragmatic.

Alistair getting pissed with me no matter how I resolve the Redcliffe thing is... well, very human, but even more annoying. Especially when you ask him what you should've done and he can't give you any answers. Waiting for the circle mages and templars to come would've resulted in the loss of even more lives for the exact same outcome (templars deal with apostates and abominations by killing them, after all).

Actually that was my thinking for my first playthrough but on my subsequent ones, I did it Alistair's way which was to go to the Circle and do that area and then come back with Irving. You net a lot of approval for doing it that way, saving both Isolde and Connor... Just fyi.

[Fishy]

Ther's some plot hole in the game though..
For instance Morrigan ask your Dwarf to impregnate her..Well obviously she don't seem to have any sexual attirance toward dwarf if you hear her conversation with oghren.But you can romance her easily .Also there's 1 chance of 10,000 that a dwarf and a human mating will make a baby.It's Very VERY rare.Also the fact that Warden are Sterile.Even if she don't do the ritual she will be pregnant when you romance her.

And yeah .. The Dwarf Commoner Origins it's very harsh.More so than the elf city one.You,re basicly considered less than darkspawn poop by the Dwarf community.

Modifié par Suprez30, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:43 .

[MusukoYo]

Actually that was my thinking for my first playthrough but on my subsequent ones, I did it Alistair's way which was to go to the Circle and do that area and then come back with Irving. You net a lot of approval for doing it that way, saving both Isolde and Connor... Just fyi.

Wow, really? I had no idea that was possible. The thought of just leaving the village and the survivors in the castle to demon-Connor's tender mercies had never crossed my mind because it seems so... reprehensible. There's no guarantee that the demon wouldn't get tired of Teagan, Isolde, and the rest and just kill them all before you could get to the tower, persuade Irving to help, and return. Plus, wouldn't Connor attack the village again? They could barely repel the undead that one night, and that was with the full band of intrepid adventurers helping them out.



I don't get it. It's like leaving a house that's burning to go grab some firemen from another district several hours away. Realistically, that there'd be nothing left to rescue by the time you got back.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

MusukoYo wrote...

Actually that was my thinking for my first playthrough but on my subsequent ones, I did it Alistair's way which was to go to the Circle and do that area and then come back with Irving. You net a lot of approval for doing it that way, saving both Isolde and Connor... Just fyi.

Wow, really? I had no idea that was possible. The thought of just leaving the village and the survivors in the castle to demon-Connor's tender mercies had never crossed my mind because it seems so... reprehensible. There's no guarantee that the demon wouldn't get tired of Teagan, Isolde, and the rest and just kill them all before you could get to the tower, persuade Irving to help, and return. Plus, wouldn't Connor attack the village again? They could barely repel the undead that one night, and that was with the full band of intrepid adventurers helping them out.



I don't get it. It's like leaving a house that's burning to go grab some firemen from another district several hours away. Realistically, that there'd be nothing left to rescue by the time you got back.

Basically Teagan and Jowan hold the fort apparently after you snap him out of it.

[Korva]

Suprez30 wrote...

Also the fact that Warden are Sterile.Even if she don't do the ritual she will be pregnant when you romance her.

Wardens aren't sterile, but their fertility is apparently very, very low. And Morrigan says it "must be tonight" i.e. on the eve of battle. Getting pregnant before that would not work, so I guess as a mage and herbalist she knows how to make 100% sure nothing happens, just as she can apparently make 100% sure she does conceive that special night.

[Kenshen]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

On my second plathrough I crafted everything to be what is best for Ferelden. Hardened Alistair rules with Anora, and Loghain redeems himself by killing the archdemon.

As far as I know this isn't possible.  There is no way you can spare Loghain in order for him to kill the archdemon and have Alistair still be around to be king or anything else for that matter.  He simply walks out on you everytime.  If I am wrong I really would like to know how you did this.