13 réponses à ce sujet

[Achkas]

A solution to the problem of certain characters being alive in certain people's games and not other people's games, and therefore not feeling like you can use these characters in meaningful ways: consider crafting some plotlines like the ME3 team utilised Wrex and Mordin. These characters could be dead in some people's game saves, so the team created surrogates that were present instead if these characters were no longer alive; the storylines and dialogue -were- distinct, and some things could play out differently, but the situations were similar enough for similar environments/quests to play out with similar assets, presumably cutting down on development time severely as compared with totally different plots for different game imports.

This would allow you to use Anders, Zevran, Loghain, Nathaniel, even the Architect or the Old God Baby in meaningful ways in future dragon age games, as long as you had some substitute/alternative character for use in the same mission if they're not alive. For the former four, it's easy to imagine alternatives who act in similar ways (but without as much emotional charge for the player seeing them again); for the Architect, a Corypherus-like alternative or an 'awakened' darkspawn lieutenant of the potentially dead Architect would be viable alternatives. For the old God Baby, this would be much harder to find a viable alternative, but I'm sure you could think of one.

You wouldn't be undermining people's personal canon therefore by reusing old characters in meaningful ways, and you would really really benefit from emotional goodwill generated by seeing old friends again (remember the OMG type responses Leliana's appearance generated? If certain characters had been in even more meaningful roles it would have been amazing).

[Achkas]

Why did this get two stars? I'd like to see people actually reply to it if they feel the idea is bad.

[Servo to the bitter end]

I think it's a perfectly acceptable idea. It's not ideal, but what is?

I honestly don't think it's a perfect situation - similarly, I thought the same in Mass Effect 3. If a certain character could potentially impact a situation, but isn't present due to death or disagreement, I'd like the story to be altered significantly rather than just having someone else sub in. But that would require a lot more work on the part of the developers.

But it's a good way to show familiar faces, as you say. And it's something that would probably make people happy for a relatively low resource investment.

[lx_theo]

TommyServo wrote...

I think it's a perfectly acceptable idea. It's not ideal, but what is?

I honestly don't think it's a perfect situation - similarly, I thought the same in Mass Effect 3. If a certain character could potentially impact a situation, but isn't present due to death or disagreement, I'd like the story to be altered significantly rather than just having someone else sub in. But that would require a lot more work on the part of the developers.

But it's a good way to show familiar faces, as you say. And it's something that would probably make people happy for a relatively low resource investment.

What I noticed in ME3 is that they were given the same role, not the same story, their personalities and capabilities seemed to change their impact on the story.

[Helena Tylena]

Wrex and Wreave were indeed two completely different characters with completely different philosophies, possibly making you completely rethink your options in their segment.

[Brockololly]

That only works so far though and even still, having surrogates act as fill-ins for others still feels cheap more often than not. Take something like the OGB- thats not a role I don't think you could fill with a surrogate type character without it feeling pretty contrived.

And at least with DA as compared to ME, the different issue with even bringing back old companions or old characters is that you'll be playing as a new PC. So its not going to be like Shep reuniting with his best bud Wrex, the new PC is basically meeting a stranger while the player gets the feeling of familiarity. Yet there isn't any way to reciprocate what the player may be feeling towards the old companion via the PC since they're a stranger to the new PC. And that creates a disconnect between the player and PC, at least in my experience.

[Tpiom]

I'm all for this... At least they would stop doing the "I didn't die" type of junk.

Although, I think the Architect and the Old God Baby would be best kept out. They are too hard to 'replace'...

[Brockololly]

Tpiom wrote...

I'm all for this... At least they would stop doing the "I didn't die" type of junk.

Personally, I'd prefer it if BioWare cut back on most big character defining choices as being "Do you want [insert character name] to die or live?" Unless BioWare is willing and ready to deal with major and meaningful consequences of having somebody alive or dead, just don't give us that option. Instead have choices that can still affect the character in big ways, but don't lead to them being dead and in need of having their deaths retconned or handwaved away come time for a follow up.

Instead of the big choice always being life/death, maybe its a choice that leads to them taking a drastically different outlook on an issue or a change in their attitude towards the PC. Maybe its something that makes turns them into the antagonist. Or maybe its something that leads to merely getting maimed instead of death- so instead of killing Leliana at the Sacred Ashes, you just chopped off her hand and she somehow gets away or you leave her to die. Then in future games, if you were to run across her, it wouldn't be "Hey, why are you alive?" it would be more "Oh, hey you don't have a hand because my Warden hacked it off!"

[Deviija]

I am more in favor of BioWare *not* allowing the PC/player/story kill off a major companion characters, just for the sake of said characters possibly coming back to the franchise in a sequel or more with a larger role. Or an important role/cameo.

The choice of killing off characters, especially in grand and/or dramatic fashion is great. I enjoy it. Having that freedom or that anxiety-inducing threat is a good thing. It also has emotional depth to it. However, handwaving deaths and choices a PC/player made in a previous title really undermines the entire reason for having those moments and those conflicts and dramatic exits.

Now, if there is an explanation for why someone that is dead is now returning, then I can be fine with it. Like, the Maker blessing Leliana, or somehow the Ashes found their way to reviving her, whatever, and it relates to her returning role and what her purpose is. That's fine to me. But more preferable is that important companion characters don't get killed off unless there is absolute certainty that these people are going to stay dead. Choices mattering. There are other things that can be done in a story, in choices, to facilitate real consequence than just 'I kill you.'

Your PC isn't an omnipotent godforce in these games, regardless of how Special Snowflake they may be. Crafting an exit for a character that works without death is a manageable thing. Heck, Leliana could still go hostile on the PC and act as a miniboss type of an opponent, but instead of doing a deathblow, you can have her flee/retreat/disappear in rogue smoke before her health gets to a 0 threshold. Or even cut in with a cinematic of her escaping as the purification fire gets out of control, or the structure begins to crumble and the PC and party need to retreat abruptly than stay and fight further. Whatever.

It may seem contrived to have a 'bag of tricks' up your writer's sleeve, but preserving a character for the possibility of them returning at some point at least makes less of a 'what the heck' ripple.  

*Though to be fair, the way BW handled deaths of characters in ME3 was purely because they brought everyone back in cameo role capacity.  Since it was the last of the triology, they had nothing to lose, and could kill whomever they wished willy-nilly.  Liara and the Virmire Survivor were purposely kept from ME2 in order to be alive in ME3 no matter what, not allowing the story of choices kill them off before then.  And, since it's the last we'll likely see of this cast of characters, killing them off in this chapter has no real weight for future projects, imo.  

Modifié par Deviija, 06 avril 2012 - 11:06 .

[Dessalines]

Brockololly wrote...

That only works so far though and even still, having surrogates act as fill-ins for others still feels cheap more often than not. Take something like the OGB- thats not a role I don't think you could fill with a surrogate type character without it feeling pretty contrived.

And at least with DA as compared to ME, the different issue with even bringing back old companions or old characters is that you'll be playing as a new PC. So its not going to be like Shep reuniting with his best bud Wrex, the new PC is basically meeting a stranger while the player gets the feeling of familiarity. Yet there isn't any way to reciprocate what the player may be feeling towards the old companion via the PC since they're a stranger to the new PC. And that creates a disconnect between the player and PC, at least in my experience.

You know that is a really good point. 

[Dessalines]

Deviija wrote...


I am more in favor of BioWare *not* allowing the PC/player/story kill off a major companion characters, just for the sake of said characters possibly coming back to the franchise in a sequel or more with a larger role. Or an important role/cameo.

The choice of killing off characters, especially in grand and/or dramatic fashion is great. I enjoy it. Having that freedom or that anxiety-inducing threat is a good thing. It also has emotional depth to it. However, handwaving deaths and choices a PC/player made in a previous title really undermines the entire reason for having those moments and those conflicts and dramatic exits.

Now, if there is an explanation for why someone that is dead is now returning, then I can be fine with it. Like, the Maker blessing Leliana, or somehow the Ashes found their way to reviving her, whatever, and it relates to her returning role and what her purpose is. That's fine to me. But more preferable is that important companion characters don't get killed off unless there is absolute certainty that these people are going to stay dead. Choices mattering. There are other things that can be done in a story, in choices, to facilitate real consequence than just 'I kill you.'

Your PC isn't an omnipotent godforce in these games, regardless of how Special Snowflake they may be. Crafting an exit for a character that works without death is a manageable thing. Heck, Leliana could still go hostile on the PC and act as a miniboss type of an opponent, but instead of doing a deathblow, you can have her flee/retreat/disappear in rogue smoke before her health gets to a 0 threshold. Or even cut in with a cinematic of her escaping as the purification fire gets out of control, or the structure begins to crumble and the PC and party need to retreat abruptly than stay and fight further. Whatever.

It may seem contrived to have a 'bag of tricks' up your writer's sleeve, but preserving a character for the possibility of them returning at some point at least makes less of a 'what the heck' ripple.  

*Though to be fair, the way BW handled deaths of characters in ME3 was purely because they brought everyone back in cameo role capacity.  Since it was the last of the triology, they had nothing to lose, and could kill whomever they wished willy-nilly.  Liara and the Virmire Survivor were purposely kept from ME2 in order to be alive in ME3 no matter what, not allowing the story of choices kill them off before then.  And, since it's the last we'll likely see of this cast of characters, killing them off in this chapter has no real weight for future projects, imo.  

Lol, that is another good point. I think sometimes Bioware paints themselves in a corner. I think really should think two or three games in advance when they make their games. If you planned for Leilana to come back in more games than do a small cutscene implying that it was possible, or even it could have been in the summary. I never killed Leiliana, but I did allow Alistair to be executed a few times.
The only reason why I mention Alistair was because there is a scene in Dragon Age 2 which he is arguing with Meredith if he lived, and I kept wondering why can't a similiar scene had been done with Anora is she was Queen. The dialogue could have been changed a bit, but it still would have been a great scene. It might have been better.(
Some cases it might work, but I think for most ir might not.

[the_one_54321]

Zevran said....
I didn't really die!

the_one_54321 said...
That's funny. I distinctly remember slitting your [copulating] throat....

[Who is that Masked Man]

And at least with DA as compared to ME, the different issue with even bringing back old companions or old characters is that you'll be playing as a new PC. So its not going to be like Shep reuniting with his best bud Wrex, the new PC is basically meeting a stranger while the player gets the feeling of familiarity. Yet there isn't any way to reciprocate what the player may be feeling towards the old companion via the PC since they're a stranger to the new PC. And that creates a disconnect between the player and PC, at least in my experience.

There are still a couple of ways that can be handled nicely. I think cameos from old character work pretty well when the new PC knows of them by reputation, like with Hawke and Leliana ("THE Leliana?").

Or, even when the new PC is unfamiliar with the cameo character, those encounters can still be fun when one of your party members have a connection with that person. The Zevran/Nathaniel encounters were fun, for me at least, because I had Isabela/Anders in tow.

I do have to admit, though, that cameos can be unintentionally amusing in their pointlessness when a new PC has no connection with the cameo character at all. I remember doing Witch Hunt with an Orlesian Warden just to see how it would be different.

Morrigan: "Hunt Flemeth, if you hunt anyone... not me."
Orlesian Warden: "Who's Flemeth?"

[MagmaSaiyan]

as i sorta found out, if you dont kill some one in a cut scene they are going to be alive, case in point if you killed Anders he is likely dead, Morrigan might be a good example since we arent sure she died, and in all points of Leliana we can kill her in battle but again not in a cut scene, so she will be alive, all speculations but it seems to be sorta valid. was Wynne alive in Awakening if you killed her?