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The Maker and the Chantry are the enemy?


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#1
ftprtt8

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The Chantry might be contain some decent folks who want to help people, but overall their beleifs and their dogma seem to contradict the notion that the Chantry is based on what is good and right.

They have their own army, which is controlled by addicting them to a material that they have a monopoly on above ground.

They use this army to control the mages, which are one of the most powerful forces in this world.

They led a crusade against the Elves simply because they did not beleive in the same God(s) that they beleive in.

From what I could tell, it was more likely that Andraste was a mage. Not sure if there is any specific mention, but I did get that feel during my playthrough.  The abundace of lyrium in and around that cavern  containing the Urn seems add some validity to that.

So tell me, why is it that we accept that this Maker (which,  by the way,  has not made an appearance to assist the good folks of this world) is a good entity ever though the Chantry lore says that the Maker in fact made the darkspawn as a punishment for man's sin. And seems to continue punishing this world for millenia  in what seems to be overkill.

So, if anything I feel that the Chantry and and this Maker are the enemy. Anyone care to comment?

Modifié par ftprtt8, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:48 .


#2
Popemaster123

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I agree. I compare the chantry to christianity myself.

#3
Herr Uhl

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They are not the darkspawn and thus not the enemy. They are a stabilizing force in Thedas.



Unless you have a different religion that is. And the elves were not simply punished for having other gods.

#4
Jab0r

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So tell me, why is it that we accept that this Maker (which, by the way, has not made an appearance to assist the good folks of this world) is a good entity ever though the Chantry lore says that the Maker in fact made the darkspawn as a punishment for man's sin. And seems to continue punishing this world for millenia in what seems to be overkill.


I don't want to bring this into a religious flamewar, but compare the Chantry to popular monotheistic religions in the real world.

#5
ExistsAlready

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Compared to the Qun of the Qunari people, which apparently states that the Qunari should invade everywhere.

#6
Taleroth

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ftprtt8 wrote...

So tell me, why is it that we accept that this Maker (which,  by the way,  has not made an appearance to assist the good folks of this world) is a good entity

Speak for yourself.

The Maker is intentionally ephemeral.  It's not intended for his existance to be certain, let alone his moral skew.

#7
Original182

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Haha! I'll bite.

ftprtt8 wrote...
They have their own army, which is controlled by addicting them to a material that they have a monopoly on above ground.


Hmmm you need to prove that they do this to control them. From what I read, lyrium is needed for the templars to be better at what they do.
In fact, illegal lyrium smuggling has been done by Godwin of the Mages Circle. You get the supplier quest from Orzammar to send a lyrium shipment to Godwin. He then gives it to the Templars as a drug.
So at least one member of the Mages Circle has been proven to cause templars to be addicted, all for the sake of profit. But I don't see you saying the mages circle are the enemy.

They use this army to control the mages, which are one of the most powerful forces in this world.


Well having the most powerful force doesn't make you the enemy. Unlike Orlais who invaded the entire Ferelden, the Templars aren't used to start wars. They are used to protect the good people of Ferelden from apostate mages and abominations, which was what Uldred became and caused havoc in the Circle Tower.

Again, I question your selective judgement against the Chantry, when Loghain has been leading civil war, forcing people to submit to his rule.

They led a crusade against the Elves simply because they did not beleive in the same God(s) that they beleive in.


Many countries invaded many countries in the past. The Chantry has made mistakes in the past, and if other countries can be forgiven, surely you can find it in your heart to forgive the Chantry.

From what I could tell, it was more likely that Andraste was a mage. Not sure if there is any specific mention, but I did get that feel during my playthrough.  The abundace of lyrium in and around that cavern  containing the Urn seems add some validity to that.


I don't remember seeing lyrium in the chamber. I think there is more Lyrium at the Anvil of the Void, and we know for a fact that dwarves can't be mages. So the presence of lyrium is not proof that Andraste was a mage.
The presence of the Guard, who was one of the first disciples of Andraste, never indicated Andraste was a mage.
You were probably misled by the book you could gift to Wynne, which hinted that Andraste was a powerful mage. It's source seems dubious and cannot be trusted.

So tell me, why is it that we accept that this Maker (which,  by the way,  has not made an appearance to assist the good folks of this world) is a good entity ever though the Chantry lore says that the Maker in fact made the darkspawn as a punishment for man's sin. And seems to continue punishing this world for millenia  in what seems to be overkill.

So, if anything I feel that the Chantry and and this Maker are the enemy. Anyone care to comment?


The Maker gave mankind a chance of redemption by sending Andraste, but because of the evil in man, they betrayed her and burnt her on the stake. Andraste was a sign of the Maker's existence, her miraculous ashes that could heal Arl Eamon is proof of his existence.

So if we don't even welcome Andraste with open arms but kill her instead, can you say we deserve to be forgiven? The Chantry says if we say the Chant to the corners of the world, the Maker will forgive us. Have we tried that?

And the Blight is the enemy. The Chantry are just humble people trying to help. No matter what evils you think of the Chantry, there are worse people out there. So to say the Chantry is evil simply because of the minor things you listed is a gross exaggeration.

#8
wcholcombe

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The elves were not attacked because of their gods:



1) They were attacked because they stood and watched without aiding as the Blight destroyed several human settlements along their borders.

2) They attacked human settlements near their borders.



Lyrium addiction can be a side affect, but the lyrium is the source of the Templar's magic resistance and dispelling abilities. Just as it is with the Dwarves.



They control the mages because prior to the circles coming into being, the general populace killed mages the second they were found. You seriously don't get this. People in Thedas outside of possibly Tevinter are terrified of mages and magic.



Plus, there is basis for the Maker and the Chantry being correct, considering the urn of sacred ashes does truly possess healing powers of extraordinary magnitude.



All relegions/ways of life/beliefs that you wish to consider have their skeletons.








#9
Riona45

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The Maker, the enemy? That kind of presumes that he exists at all. You can't be an enemy if you don't exist.



The Chantry is not based on good and right, it's based on the accumulation of power for those who are in charge of it.

#10
Taleroth

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Riona45 wrote...

You can't be an enemy if you don't exist.

Not with that attitude, you can't.  But it hasn't stopped the Reptiloids!

Because they've got spunk.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:10 .


#11
ftprtt8

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Taleroth wrote...

ftprtt8 wrote...

So tell me, why is it that we accept that this Maker (which,  by the way,  has not made an appearance to assist the good folks of this world) is a good entity

Speak for yourself.

The Maker is intentionally ephemeral.  It's not intended for his existance to be certain, let alone his moral skew.


Explain away the fact that according to the currently known lore, the Maker had a hand in the creation of the darkspawn when the Golden City became the Black City due to some Tevinter mage interference.

I still think that we should be looking at this Maker and this Black city as a potential enemy and source of the darkspawn.

So maybe completing the ritual at the end of the game is actually a good thing, and the Old Gods really are the good deities of this world.

#12
Original182

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Riona45 wrote...
The Maker, the enemy? That kind of presumes that he exists at all. You can't be an enemy if you don't exist.

The Chantry is not based on good and right, it's based on the accumulation of power for those who are in charge of it.


How are the Chantry powerful? When Lothering was overrun, they don't have an army to defend themselves, they had to run. All the Chantries I visit do not hint of any wealth or power. The Templars they have at Lothering were just for protection.
All the priests and revered mothers live humble lives. They do not seem like powerful people at all.

#13
wcholcombe

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Riona45 wrote...

The Maker, the enemy? That kind of presumes that he exists at all. You can't be an enemy if you don't exist.

The Chantry is not based on good and right, it's based on the accumulation of power for those who are in charge of it.


What?

The chantry is a way of life and a belief system.  It isn't about the accumulation of power. 

It is political to a degree, but it is hard not to be when you are of the size it is.

#14
Messor8914

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I can't help but to notice the same thing because i don't think a religion needs to maintain a leash on mages, lyrium to maintain control and it was said by alistair that lyrium doesn't think it does anything just keeps people from straying away, And the mis treatment of elves always appalled me.

#15
ftprtt8

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wcholcombe wrote...

Lyrium addiction can be a side affect, but the lyrium is the source of the Templar's magic resistance and dispelling abilities. Just as it is with the Dwarves.


Alistaire states that you don't need lyrium, it just makes it more effective. 

And dwarves have no magic, which is why they are not effected by it.

#16
Taleroth

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ftprtt8 wrote...

Explain away the fact that according to the currently known lore, the Maker had a hand in the creation of the darkspawn when the Golden City became the Black City due to some Tevinter mage interference.

Because that's what the Chantry teaches.  That doesn't make it the official setting explanation.

The Dwarves teach that the Darkspawn predate the Tevinter.  Demons claim that the Golden City and the Maker simply do not exist, a point the Dwarves also probably agree with.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:16 .


#17
Popemaster123

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I stil agree with the first post, the chantry is too muhc like early christianity to me, invading all willy-nilly and saying that they are right no matter what.Also like current islam.

But the only redeeming quality that they have is if you refuse to accept it all then instead of killing you outright they just call you a "heathen" and say "begone with you that the wardens allow you into their ranks is their greastest weakness".

#18
Riona45

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wcholcombe wrote...

What?

The chantry is a way of life and a belief system.  It isn't about the accumulation of power. 

It is political to a degree, but it is hard not to be when you are of the size it is.


Oh, I'm sure you're right--it's only by sheer coincidence that the Chantry is as powerful and widespread as it is.  It's not like anyone involved actually *wanted* all that power.  Of course.

#19
wcholcombe

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ftprtt8 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

ftprtt8 wrote...

So tell me, why is it that we accept that this Maker (which,  by the way,  has not made an appearance to assist the good folks of this world) is a good entity

Speak for yourself.

The Maker is intentionally ephemeral.  It's not intended for his existance to be certain, let alone his moral skew.


Explain away the fact that according to the currently known lore, the Maker had a hand in the creation of the darkspawn when the Golden City became the Black City due to some Tevinter mage interference.

I still think that we should be looking at this Maker and this Black city as a potential enemy and source of the darkspawn.

So maybe completing the ritual at the end of the game is actually a good thing, and the Old Gods really are the good deities of this world.




Duh, the chantry itself states the black city and the darkspawn are the makers curse for man trying to enter heaven prematurely.

It doesn't make him evil.  Petty maybe over man's arrogance, but not evil.

The old gods on the other hand taught man blood magic, endorsed the practice of human sacrifice, and actually participate in the blights openly resulting in the destruction of man.

By the view point of humanity and sentient beings on Thedas, there is no way for the darkspawn to be good.  They purely wish to destroy and absorb all other living beings on Thedas.  Thereby they cannot be considered good if their goal is basically killing you.

#20
Alex Savchovsky

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Original182 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...
The Maker, the enemy? That kind of presumes that he exists at all. You can't be an enemy if you don't exist.

The Chantry is not based on good and right, it's based on the accumulation of power for those who are in charge of it.


How are the Chantry powerful? When Lothering was overrun, they don't have an army to defend themselves, they had to run. All the Chantries I visit do not hint of any wealth or power. The Templars they have at Lothering were just for protection.
All the priests and revered mothers live humble lives. They do not seem like powerful people at all.


Don't be ridiculous. Even if you don't consider the templars as their army, they would still have political influence. And this is a power as well. Evil. Since it can corrupt people. Uh-huh.

#21
Herr Uhl

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ftprtt8 wrote...

And dwarves have no magic, which is why they are not effected by it.


Dwarves have no dreams, thus no magic. This due to being exposed to lyrium. And they are not unaffected, they are resistant. The guy looking for his lunch and Sandal should be proof enough of that.

So it is reverse. Like building up resistance to a drug and then needing to move on to heavier stuff.

#22
Riona45

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Original182 wrote...

How are the Chantry powerful? When Lothering was overrun, they don't have an army to defend themselves, they had to run. All the Chantries I visit do not hint of any wealth or power. The Templars they have at Lothering were just for protection.
All the priests and revered mothers live humble lives. They do not seem like powerful people at all.


Of course village priests are generally humble, well-meaning people.  They aren't the ones who have the serious power in the organization, though.  You are a bit naive if you think the entire organization consists of people like the chantry members in the small villages. 

#23
Thomas9321

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I don't understand why people are so desperate to believe the Chantry is corrupt or evil. As we see them in game, they are nothing but benevolent. The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history and thus not relevent to discussion of the present morality of the Chantry.

Modifié par Thomas9321, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:20 .


#24
Taleroth

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Thomas9321 wrote...

The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

#25
ftprtt8

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Quick question, since I seem to be missing a few pieces of knowledge: Where was it said that the Old Gods were the source of Blood Magic?