107 réponses à ce sujet

[Original182]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Original182 wrote...
How are the Chantry powerful? When Lothering was overrun, they don't have an army to defend themselves, they had to run. All the Chantries I visit do not hint of any wealth or power. The Templars they have at Lothering were just for protection.
All the priests and revered mothers live humble lives. They do not seem like powerful people at all.

Don't be ridiculous. Even if you don't consider the templars as their army, they would still have political influence. And this is a power as well. Evil. Since it can corrupt people. Uh-huh.

I don't remember the Revered Mother at the Landsmeet having any political power. She wasn't one of the 6 people who cast their votes. The only time she spoke was when she wanted to condemn Loghain for taking Jowan the blood mage into his service to poison Arl Eamon. And when there was a huge fight between the Grey Warden and Loghain, she called for it to stop. Those actions don't seem like someone who wants power. More like to maintain peace.

Political influence is power, evil and can corrupt people. But I see no evidence of the Revered Mother influencing the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[Original182]

Riona45 wrote...
Of course village priests are generally humble, well-meaning people.  They aren't the ones who have the serious power in the organization, though.  You are a bit naive if you think the entire organization consists of people like the chantry members in the small villages. 

You then need to show me a Chantry sub-group that is all about power. Show me evidence.
And if you yourself concede that village priests are well-meaning people. So how can you generalize that the Chantry just seeks power, based on no proof? That's like saying all mages are evil because of what happened to Uldred and the Circle Tower.

[wcholcombe]

Taleroth wrote...

ftprtt8 wrote...

Explain away the fact that according to the currently known lore, the Maker had a hand in the creation of the darkspawn when the Golden City became the Black City due to some Tevinter mage interference.

Because that's what the Chantry teaches.  That doesn't make it the official setting explanation.

The Dwarves teach that the Darkspawn predate the Tevinter.  Demons claim that the Golden City and the Maker simply do not exist, a point the Dwarves also probably agree with.

The dwarves have no clue about the golden city--being as dwarves neither dream nor enter the fade.
The demon's lie so truly why would you believe them?
Mages have documented the prior existence of the golden city in the Fade.  Mages, not the Chantry.  The Chantry did not create the Golden City.

The dwarves do not have magic, because they live surrounded by Lyrium.  Sorry I didn't know Allistair was an expert on where Templar powers come from.  He says himself he never got to the point of taking lyrium so he doesn't know its benefits.  He suspects it may not be necessary, he doesn't know.  I would suspect that the powers he and the player have as templars is not the full range of skills and resists they would have if they used lyrium as the templars do.  He actually knows very little about the templars other then fighting style.  And he is hardly an objective source on them.

As for the accumulation of power-sure that is a side affect, but the actual goal of the Chantry is to spread their message and return the maker, not just to accumulate power.

As for the elves.  The Chantry has actually benefited the elves.  They freed them from slavery, I know Andraste pronounced it, but the Chantry is who actually went abou the freeing of elves.  Also, the Tevinters were the ones who destroyed the original Elven homeland and practice slavery today.

[Alex Savchovsky]

But you just described her influencing it!

And by the way, not being able and not willing to are different cases.

[DarkGodShadow]

[/quote]

By the view point of humanity and sentient beings on Thedas, there is no way for the darkspawn to be good.  They purely wish to destroy and absorb all other living beings on Thedas.  Thereby they cannot be considered good if their goal is basically killing you.

[/quote]
But if you read The Calling you know thats not entirely true, some of them have a reason to live rather than seeking the Old Gods, well atleast one of them does

[Taleroth]

wcholcombe wrote...

The dwarves have no clue about the golden city--being as dwarves neither dream nor enter the fade.
The demon's lie so truly why would you believe them?
Mages have documented the prior existence of the golden city in the Fade.  Mages, not the Chantry.  The Chantry did not create the Golden City.

Mages have no documentation of the Golden City.  The Chantry and its Circle of Magi weren't even established until after the First Blight began.  Even Wynne, who was in line to be First Enchanter and was offered the job before Irving, does not know if it's true.  But the Dwarves do have documentation of Darkspawn predating the Tevinter Imperium.

And you have no reason to claim that demons lie.  The most significant lie we get out of one is it claiming to be a cat.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:37 .

[Herr Uhl]

Original182 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...
Of course village priests are generally humble, well-meaning people.  They aren't the ones who have the serious power in the organization, though.  You are a bit naive if you think the entire organization consists of people like the chantry members in the small villages. 

You then need to show me a Chantry sub-group that is all about power. Show me evidence.
And if you yourself concede that village priests are well-meaning people. So how can you generalize that the Chantry just seeks power, based on no proof? That's like saying all mages are evil because of what happened to Uldred and the Circle Tower.

The Tevinter branch seems to be falling back into the old groove. Not popular with the rest.

And the irony in your statement is that the chantry sees all magi as bad due to people like Uldred.

[wcholcombe]

In both the collectors addition strategy guide and I believe in some of the codex entries, it talks about the Old God of silence-Dumat-the first one to rise in the first blight, teaching tevinter Magisters blood magic and being involved in the attempt to enter the golden city.



Ok, so if having power is evil. Allistair is evil when he becomes king, eamon is evil for being an Arl, the Couslands are evil, first enchanter Irving is Evil, Gregor is evil.



Accumulating power for the sake of accumulating power is one thing and could possibly be seen as evil.



Accumulating power to spread a belief you feel will benefit the world and improve it is not.



Even in the books, while the revered moth in Stolen Throne isn't portrayed in the best light, she does act from the belief that she is doing what is best for Ferelden, not herself or the Chantry.

[Original182]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

But you just described her influencing it!
And by the way, not being able and not willing to are different cases.

The original contention was that the Chantry accumulates political power, thus making them "evil". I was just showing that the Revered Mother had no political power in determining who should be the next ruler.
Again there is no evidence that the Chantry has political power. I don't remember reading it in the codex, but I don't mind being corrected if someone can link me a reliable source.

[Riona45]

Original182 wrote...
 Show me evidence.

Says the guy who accepts what we are told about the Maker as fact by default.

How about this: Mages in Ferelden (and most likely in other countries) cannot hold titles of nobility because of the literal interpretation of one of the supposed teachings of Andraste.  Also, you can't honestly tell me that a church that has much of Thedas agreeing with their beliefs would have no political power whatsoever there.  I mean...getting most people to agree with you is a great way to gain and maintain power.

Yeah, many of the priests I've met are benevolent.  So what?  That doesn't mean their beliefs are correct, or that the motives of those who actually run the Chantry are selfless.  It doesn't contradict my main point in the slightest, it's not a concession in your favor.

Modifié par Riona45, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:39 .

[Riona45]

Original182 wrote...


The original contention was that the Chantry accumulates political power, thus making them "evil".

Who said that?  Not me--I never brought up "evil" at all.  You're a bad debater if you have to resort to misquoting people.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Original182 wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

But you just described her influencing it!
And by the way, not being able and not willing to are different cases.

The original contention was that the Chantry accumulates political power, thus making them "evil". I was just showing that the Revered Mother had no political power in determining who should be the next ruler.
Again there is no evidence that the Chantry has political power. I don't remember reading it in the codex, but I don't mind being corrected if someone can link me a reliable source.

So you mean that the Chantry is the first official church in the history of the multi-universe that actually does not have political influence? I find that a bit hard to believe.

[ExistsAlready]

A Revered Mother is basically the "Head Priest" of a "Church".



The Divine is the head of the Chantry. And in at least one Epilogue, the Divine contemplates an Exalted March against the Dwarves. I'd say starting a holy war counts as political power.

[Invalidcode]

I don't think they are evil, but Chantry do have a 'Zealot Mode'. Chantry generally helps people in need too. But once you do something threatens the Chantry or really ****** them off, the Chantry turns on 'Zealot Mode' and go Exalted March.



Talk about zealot, the freaking Qunari takes the crown, invasion after invasion so they can 'help' other races seek enlightenment. I wish we get more detail on the Exalted Marches vs Qun.



From the codex, even the powerful demon stay far far FAR away from the Dark city, so nothing really knows for sure whats inside. The only main source we got about it is the Chantry version.

I will take whatever a demon tells you with a grin of salt though.

[wcholcombe]

Taleroth wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

The dwarves have no clue about the golden city--being as dwarves neither dream nor enter the fade.
The demon's lie so truly why would you believe them?
Mages have documented the prior existence of the golden city in the Fade.  Mages, not the Chantry.  The Chantry did not create the Golden City.

Mages have no documentation of the Golden City.  The Chantry and its Circle of Magi weren't even established until after the First Blight began.  Even Wynne, who was in line to be First Enchanter and was offered the job before Irving, does not know if it's true.  But the Dwarves do have documentation of Darkspawn predating the Tevinter Imperium.

And you have no reason to claim that demons lie.  The most significant lie we get out of one is it claiming to be a cat.

But, it is documented that the golden city did once exist.  Read the lore in the collectors addition strategy guide.  Wynne doesn't know, but wynne wasn't alive then.  It is documented by the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium.  If it wasn't true don't you think Tevinter would have an issue with the Chantry blaming them?  But no, the Chantry itself exist in Tevinter, and teaches the exact same history.  I didn't say the circle of Magi, I said mages.  Mages were around prior to the circle of Magi.

Demons lie and manipulate humans because that is their nature.  The entire experience in the fade with the sloth demon is one giant lie. 

The dwarves don't have anything saying the darkspawn predated the tevinters.  The darkspawn didn't even enter the deep roads until right before the first blight.  Yes they were around before the first blight, but the magister lords tried to enter the deep roads well before the first blight as well.  It took them a while to find Dumat.

[Original182]

Riona45 wrote...
Who said that?  Not me--I never brought up "evil" at all.  You're a bad debater if you have to resort to misquoting people.

I was quoting Alex... you can see it is the first post of this page.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Don't be ridiculous. Even if you don't consider the templars as their
army, they would still have political influence. And this is a power as
well. Evil. Since it can corrupt people. Uh-huh.

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[wcholcombe]

Riona45 wrote...

Original182 wrote...


The original contention was that the Chantry accumulates political power, thus making them "evil".

Who said that?  Not me--I never brought up "evil" at all.  You're a bad debater if you have to resort to misquoting people.

I would say you did when you stated that the chantry exists to accumulate power.

[Varenus Luckmann]

They're not good or evil, nor are they the enemy. They're a zelous organized religion.

[Original182]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Original182 wrote...

So you mean that the Chantry is the first official church in the history of the multi-universe that actually does not have political influence? I find that a bit hard to believe.

Well I'm sure people against the Chantry like yourself agree that just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.
You'll then need to show evidence that the Chantry has political power. It doesn't get more political than the Landsmeet, and the Revered Mother didn't have a vote.

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:47 .

[wcholcombe]

DarkGodShadow wrote...






By the view point of humanity and sentient beings on Thedas, there is no way for the darkspawn to be good.  They purely wish to destroy and absorb all other living beings on Thedas.  Thereby they cannot be considered good if their goal is basically killing you.


But if you read The Calling you know thats not entirely true, some of them have a reason to live rather than seeking the Old Gods, well atleast one of them does

Did you miss the part where the architects "solution" was to turn the entire world into Darkspawn?  He admitted peace would not be possible as long as the darkspawn and other beings existed. His plan was to turn the entire surface into Darkspawn.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:46 .

[Riona45]

wcholcombe wrote...


I would say you did when you stated that the chantry exists to accumulate power.

You would say that, but that would mean you can't comprehend a rather simple statement.

[ExistsAlready]

Original182 wrote...

Well I'm sure people against the Chantry like yourself agree that just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.
You'll then need to show evidence that the Chantry has political power. It doesn't get more political than the Landsmeet, and the Revered Mother didn't have a vote.

And the Revered Mother is the head of the local Chantry, not a noble or a political entity.

[Original182]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
They're not good or evil, nor are they the enemy. They're a zelous organized religion.

Thank you for the neutral stance. Yes they are zealous, zealous for the Maker, which is not a bad thing.
The bad kind of zeal is the one displayed by the Andraste cult.

[Riona45]

Original182 wrote...


Well I'm sure people against the Chantry like yourself agree that just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.
You'll then need to show evidence that the Chantry has political power. It doesn't get more political than the Landsmeet, and the Revered Mother didn't have a vote.

I just did offer some evidence.  If you won't accept it, fine--that's your problem.

[Thomas9321]

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

I've yet to see an ending where it actually happens, as opposed to just considering. Discounting events that may or may not happen, the Chantry, as it is in game is benevolent.