107 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

wcholcombe wrote...

But, it is documented that the golden city did once exist.  Read the lore in the collectors addition strategy guide.  Wynne doesn't know, but wynne wasn't alive then. 

If Wynne doesn't know, then it would be because there is reason to doubt the documentation.  Unless you think Wynne never bothered reading it.

But no, the Chantry itself exist in Tevinter, and teaches the exact same history.

  The Imperial Chantry has significant differences from the Orlesian Chantry.  Very significant.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:50 .

[Original182]

Folks I'm going to sleep, but surely everyone here knows the OP just wants to create this thread to start flames for his amusement.
So play along and entertain the OP for a bit, but take it easy. Good night.

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Original182 wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Original182 wrote...

So you mean that the Chantry is the first official church in the history of the multi-universe that actually does not have political influence? I find that a bit hard to believe.

Well I'm sure people against the Chantry like yourself agree that just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.
You'll then need to show evidence that the Chantry has political power. It doesn't get more political than the Landsmeet, and the Revered Mother didn't have a vote.

If you want to play naive, OK.

[ExistsAlready]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

I've yet to see an ending where it actually happens, as opposed to just considering. Discounting events that may or may not happen, the Chantry, as it is in game is benevolent.

If I remember, giving Branka the Anvil and having Harrowmont as King results in her eventually raiding the surface to make more Golems when Harrowmont denies her more dwarves. The humans lead an Exalted March on Orzammar and seal them off from the surface completely.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DANGER! DANGER!



Captain, I detect a lot of scorn for real-world religion oozing into this thread!

ABORT, ABORT!!!!



I wonder how many hate the Chantry simply because they hate Christianity adn it reminds them of it? Bah.

Religion allways have a had a great influence on man, simply by their very virture of being that important. Having power is a side-effect of that. It's inter-connected. Tht doesn't make religion bad or anything.



Now drop it....

[Taleroth]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

I've yet to see an ending where it actually happens, as opposed to just considering. Discounting events that may or may not happen, the Chantry, as it is in game is benevolent.

I've yet to see an argument where the consideration of exterminatus doesn't automatically disqualify one for being referred to as "benevolent."

But, maybe Mother Theresa considered eating babies.  I hear Ghandi did too.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Original182 wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
They're not good or evil, nor are they the enemy. They're a zelous organized religion.

Thank you for the neutral stance. Yes they are zealous, zealous for the Maker, which is not a bad thing.
The bad kind of zeal is the one displayed by the Andraste cult.

It really depends. What is a "bad thing". I am sure that the dalish elves would consider Maker-centric zeal "a bad thing". At the same time, the dwarves is most likely rather indifferent as they appear to take the stance of "lol, religion" or "Oh wow, those crazy surfacers".

There are "good" Chantrists (until someone tells me what an adherent to Chantry religion is called, I'm stickin' to that) and there are "bad" chantrists. Who is what is entirely subjective.

There are most likely Chantrists ranging from moderates such as Wynne or Alistair, to extremists such as.. Oh, no, wait. I can't really think of any extremists in the game. But judging from the actions of the church overall according to the lore, they are there.

I'm still looking for the Chantry equivilent of the Westboro Baptist Church.

[Thomas9321]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

I've yet to see an ending where it actually happens, as opposed to just considering. Discounting events that may or may not happen, the Chantry, as it is in game is benevolent.

If I remember, giving Branka the Anvil and having Harrowmont as King results in her eventually raiding the surface to make more Golems when Harrowmont denies her more dwarves. The humans lead an Exalted March on Orzammar and seal them off from the surface completely.

I believe you might be right there, considering I have gotten than ending myself, I should have remembered. However, in that case, the Chantry is fully justified as far as I am concerned. Frankly, I think the killing of Branka is one of the most morally justifiable action in the game. But I digress, in this situation the Chantry has every right to declare an exalted march on Orzammar.

[wcholcombe]

The exalted march on the dwarves that was "considered" was after the "dwarven priest" was murdered for peacefully protesting the closure of his church.



The only main differences between the 2 Chantrys is. 1) Imperial Chantry isn't as restrictive of mages and allows them to hold office. 2) it allows the use of blood magic. 3) It has a male Divine as opposed to female.



The history they both teach is the same in regards to what happened to andraste and where the darkspawn came from. Also, Wynne couldn't have read these books, as they are in Tevinter and she herself has never left Ferelden.





ok, I am done with this. Relegion bashing for the sake of relegion bashing is no better then bashing people for not believing in a relegion.



adios

[Varenus Luckmann]

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...
The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

I've yet to see an ending where it actually happens, as opposed to just considering. Discounting events that may or may not happen, the Chantry, as it is in game is benevolent.

I've yet to see an argument where the consideration of exterminatus doesn't automatically disqualify one for being referred to as "benevolent."

But, maybe Mother Theresa considered eating babies.  I hear Ghandi did too.

I consider killing people about ten to fifteen times a day. Is the fact that I don't act on it somehow irrelevant? Now multiply that by the number of involved personas in any given organization.

Overall, the Chantry is portrayed benevolent. That doesn't mean that each and every action they do is benevolent. Does a single Revered Mother abusing children in her care damn the entire church? Does the actions of the Divine mean that the Chantry is permated with murderous zealots? Of course not.

[Taleroth]

wcholcombe wrote...

The exalted march on the dwarves that was "considered" was after the "dwarven priest" was murdered for peacefully protesting the closure of his church.

The only main differences between the 2 Chantrys is. 1) Imperial Chantry isn't as restrictive of mages and allows them to hold office. 2) it allows the use of blood magic. 3) It has a male Divine as opposed to female.

4) It believes Andraste was a normal mortal.

[Galad22]

wcholcombe wrote...

The elves were not attacked because of their gods:

1) They were attacked because they stood and watched without aiding as the Blight destroyed several human settlements along their borders.
2) They attacked human settlements near their borders.

This isn't actually true, this is just more than likely chantry propaganda, remember that victors always write history and that current divine thinks about calling exalted march against dwarfes simply because in one epilogue they start a circle outside chantry.

One of the loading screens says.

Second elven homeland Dales fell to an exalted march called against "heathens" nearly 700 hundred years ago.

[Taleroth]

[quote]Varenus Luckmann wrote...

But, maybe Mother Theresa considered eating babies.  I hear Ghandi did too.[/quote]I consider killing people about ten to fifteen times a day. Is the fact that I don't act on it somehow irrelevant?[/quote]  Do you make plans?  Do you call together your friends to discuss the viability of killing those people?

[quote]Now multiply that by the number of involved personas in any given organization.[/quote] I don't think "considers an Exalted March" means "some guys who work there thought it'd be cool."

[Varenus Luckmann]

Thomas9321 wrote...

ExistsAlready wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

The Exalted Marches, yes were wrong but they are anicent history

Tell that to the Dwarven epilogues.

I've yet to see an ending where it actually happens, as opposed to just considering. Discounting events that may or may not happen, the Chantry, as it is in game is benevolent.

If I remember, giving Branka the Anvil and having Harrowmont as King results in her eventually raiding the surface to make more Golems when Harrowmont denies her more dwarves. The humans lead an Exalted March on Orzammar and seal them off from the surface completely.

I believe you might be right there, considering I have gotten than ending myself, I should have remembered. However, in that case, the Chantry is fully justified as far as I am concerned. Frankly, I think the killing of Branka is one of the most morally justifiable action in the game. But I digress, in this situation the Chantry has every right to declare an exalted march on Orzammar.

Oh yeah, killing the clinically insane is totally justifiable. Totally.

They don't lead exalted marches on whims, even if some previous marches (such as the one against the elves) could easily be considered reprehensible in our moral context.

[Riona45]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



I wonder how many hate the Chantry simply because they hate Christianity adn it reminds them of it?

Does that mean the people defending the Chantry are doing so mainly because they feel defensive over real life beliefs they have that are similar to those of this particular fake religion?

I mean, if we are going to make assumptions about other people in this thread, that sword surely cuts both ways!

Modifié par Riona45, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Compared to the Qun of the Qunari people, which apparently states that the Qunari should invade everywhere.

In their own view, they are enlightnening others. And seeing that the Qunari are superior in terms of technology, social and political structure and religion (the chantry's so called "monotheism" is a perversion that makes my skin crawl, like Christianity does no offense), then I don't think they are wrong. And many humans and elves have converted to the Qun. The Qunari have shown toleration to non-Qunaris as well. The same cannot be said about elves in ferelden or Thedas in6 general.

[Varenus Luckmann]

[quote]Taleroth wrote...

[quote]Varenus Luckmann wrote...

But, maybe Mother Theresa considered eating babies.  I hear Ghandi did too.[/quote]I consider killing people about ten to fifteen times a day. Is the fact that I don't act on it somehow irrelevant?[/quote]  Do you make plans?  Do you call together your friends to discuss the viability of killing those people?

[quote]Now multiply that by the number of involved personas in any given organization.[/quote] I don't think "considers an Exalted March" means "some guys who work there thought it'd be cool."[/quote]Fail@Quoting.

No, I don't call together my friends to discuss the viability of killing those peoples. Well.. yeah.. sometimes. But that's not the point. The point is that I'm not an organization and I don't make those considerations in view of that organization (usually).

And yeah, in a way, it does mean "some guys who work there thought it'd be cool". The Divine, or any leader, cannot make decisions on a whim. If you do, you'll quickly run out of subjects to lord over, Pope or not. It's somewhat why the average life expectancy of a later roman Emperor was about the same as a snowflake in hell.

Some people think "Hey, guise, let's do this", others tag along and the Divine, willing or not, will sooner or later have to consider it as an option and act upon the feelings of her followers or the organization.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Riona45 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



I wonder how many hate the Chantry simply because they hate Christianity adn it reminds them of it?

Does that mean the people defending the Chantry are doing so mainly because they feel defensive over real life beliefs they have that are similar to those of this particular fake religion?

I mean, if we are going to make assumptions about other people in this thread, that sword surely cuts both ways!

Don't look at me. I consider all of you idiots.

[Mesecina]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DANGER! DANGER!

Captain, I detect a lot of scorn for real-world religion oozing into this thread!
ABORT, ABORT!!!!

I wonder how many hate the Chantry simply because they hate Christianity adn it reminds them of it? Bah.
Religion allways have a had a great influence on man, simply by their very virture of being that important. Having power is a side-effect of that. It's inter-connected. Tht doesn't make religion bad or anything.

Now drop it....

I wonder how many are so verbal about a certain ritual just because they loathe abortion in any form or shape even if it's just about 2 days old 4 celled zygote...
Everyone has a weak spot it would seem, no?

Now drop it

Modifié par Mesecina, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Riona45]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Don't look at me. I consider all of you idiots.

Wasn't paying heed to you at all, sweetheart.

[ExistsAlready]

If the Divine chose loyal zealots to act as bishops or deacons or whatever you want to call them, and has a loyal army of potential zealots addicted to a substance only the Chantry provides, then I'm pretty sure what the Divine wants could come true, even on a whim.



Pick a group of foreigners, call them heathens, spread some malicious, vitriolic lies about them and bam, you have all the home support you need for a pointless war.

[FedericoV]

Original182 wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Original182 wrote...

So you mean that the Chantry is the first official church in the history of the multi-universe that actually does not have political influence? I find that a bit hard to believe.

Well I'm sure people against the Chantry like yourself agree that just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.
You'll then need to show evidence that the Chantry has political power. It doesn't get more political than the Landsmeet, and the Revered Mother didn't have a vote.

Have you read Gaider's The Stolen Throne?

The Revered Mother has lot of political influence and was very important in the estabilishment and continuation of Orlais sovereign over Ferelden. Just sayin'. The monopoly of lyrium is a simble of the wealth and the power of he Chantry. They are good with the populace and of course there are priest who are in good faith and are good persons, but even the Taliban treats well their citizen to conserve power...

Having said that, I believe that the Chantry version of the teaching of Andraste are not accurate historically. I believe that Andraste was a mage and that she uses lyriium to speak with "The Maker". I believe that "The Maker" was not *that* maker but just a powerful spirit who talked with Andraste in the Fade to use her against the Old Gods. 

Then (crackpot theory moment) I think that the first blight could have been caused by Andraste herself in a vain attempt to destroy the old gods and the tevinter imperium. I don't remember the codex entry but in the religion of the elves there is a god that enslave the other gods of their pantheon. And they are seven, just like the Empire gods (at the end I seem to remember that the elves teaches magic to humans).

Btw, The Urn of Sacred Ashes is not a proof of anything since the place was full of lyrium and probably it was just a living gate to the Fade.

Modifié par FedericoV, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:28 .

[dirtywick]

It's hard to imagine the Chantry not having political influence. Although they may not have a vote directly in the Landsmeet, being present at all is evidence of some political power. Additionally, their power over the Circle isn't attained without political influence.



Under the The Imperial Chantry section it's outlined how the Imperial Chantry elected it's own illegitimate Divine and completely changed the commandments of the Chantry and in doing so had a tremendous political influence.



Being influential isn't evil though. When the power is being abused is, but even then you're talking about a small fish in a big pond w/r to Ferelden.



Now, this: under the apostates entry of the codex, "It is not uncommon... to mistake apostates and maleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so." Further: "In almost all cases "justice" is execution." So it appears that the official policy of the chantry regarding mages beyond their control is any mage that isn't under their watchful thumb is a blood mage and will be executed.

[Varenus Luckmann]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ExistsAlready wrote...

Compared to the Qun of the Qunari people, which apparently states that the Qunari should invade everywhere.

In their own view, they are enlightnening others. And seeing that the Qunari are superior in terms of technology, social and political structure and religion (the chantry's so called "monotheism" is a perversion that makes my skin crawl, like Christianity does no offense), then I don't think they are wrong. And many humans and elves have converted to the Qun. The Qunari have shown toleration to non-Qunaris as well. The same cannot be said about elves in ferelden or Thedas in6 general.

I love this. You consider the most zelous and fanatical of the religions the most enlightened, while claiming that the one that is generally benevolent is repressive.

Are the Qunari superior in terms of technology, social and political structure, and religion? I've seen nothing to suggest this anywhere in the setting so far. There are remarkable differences, but there can easily be found aspects that can be considered serious flaws; They cut out the tounges of their mages. Their women are forced to stay at home and never excel beyond that station. They operate under a rigid caste system where a merchant can never be become anything other than a merchant and a warrior can never become anything other than a warrior - and so on.

While "many" humans (never heard of elves converting) have indeed converted, there doesn't exist any form of religious freedoms in regions dominated by the Qun. I shudder to think how the Qunari punish religious dissidents.

As for the Qunari showing toleration for non-Qunari, I honestly have no idea what you've been smoking, but I'd love to have some. If you're thinking about Sten, then sure, individual Qunari have shown tolerance, but just because you don't start strangling the head of your local church while visiting doesn't mean that you're tolerant. The Chantry isn't tolerant, just because Wynne, Leliana or Alistair tolerate Sten - which they do, despite his obvious loathing for their religion. If you sacrifice yourself in the end, Sten even ends up as a General, leading attacks on human lands.

While the Chantry, as a church, haven't been particulary nice to, say, the elves, it doesn't mean that the Chantry - as a religion - in inherently evil or "GO SMITETH THINE ENEMY WITH LARGE METAL OBJECTS UNTIL THEY SING! SING! SING!"; The same cannot be said about the Qun.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Riona45 wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Don't look at me. I consider all of you idiots.

Wasn't paying heed to you at all, sweetheart.

D:

ExistsAlready wrote...
If the Divine chose loyal zealots to act as bishops or deacons or whatever you want to call them, and has a loyal army of potential zealots addicted to a substance only the Chantry provides, then I'm pretty sure what the Divine wants could come true, even on a whim.

Pick a group of foreigners, call them heathens, spread some malicious, vitriolic lies about them and bam, you have all the home support you need for a pointless war.

I completely agree. But you'd eventually erode your position of power. For example, after a while, you'd have problems gathing the secular support that is needed for a war. Especially in a feudal society. If you don't offer your subjects something other than "ever-lasting salvation" they are pretty soon going to be converting to the Qun, or choice-free religion, if only for political reasons.

Just having the church's personal army (which I am sure is formidable, until I hear something from David stating otherwise - maybe the Chantry isn't allowed to have a standing army, or somesuch) isn't much of an army, if you want to lead an exalted march. You need the support not only from your deacons and bishops, but from kings, queens, banns and teyrns, lords and ladies.