132 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Considering the avaliability of the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor in Dragon Age II that covers the entire body, I'm not certain why Dragon Age II started us off with a white Hawke. For people who create a protagonist who isn't white, it simply seems weird to have Varric telling Cassandra about a Caucasian Hawke if he (or she) isn't supposed to be white. Didn't Mass Effect 2 cover Shepard entirely for the opening sequence in order to avoid this type of situation?

Given that the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor covers Hawke entirely, I don't see why we needed to default with a white protagonist, and I'm wondering if this will happen again in Dragon Age III.

[Gosia]

 Is this a serious thread? Because you know you weren’t forced to start DA II as a white person (unless we had different game versions) you could change your skin tone to any you wished. I have no idea what you are talking
about  as I had characters with the fairest to the darkest possible skin tone in that game.

Modifié par Gosia, 05 avril 2012 - 04:01 .

[Cultist]

You could be anything

[LobselVith8]

Gosia wrote...

Is this a serious thread? Because you know you weren’t forced to start DA II as a white person (unless we had different game versions) you could change your skin tone to any you wished. I have no idea what you are talking
about  as I had characters with the fairest to the darkest possible skin tone in that game.

You were forced to start as a white Hawke when Varric is telling the tale, remember? When Hawke and his (or her) sibling are fighting the darkspawn at the beginning of the game?

Hawke and his (or her) sibling are white, and then we get into the character creation soon afterwards. That's what I'm addressing specifically. I really don't understand the need for it in Dragon Age II when there was armor avaliable to hide Hawke's features, and I don't see a reason to start the protagonist of Dragon Age III as a white protagonist before making the character creation avaliable.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the avaliability of the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor in Dragon Age II that covers the entire body, I'm not certain why Dragon Age II started us off with a white Hawke. For people who create a protagonist who isn't white, it simply seems weird to have Varric telling Cassandra about a Caucasian Hawke if he (or she) isn't supposed to be white. Didn't Mass Effect 2 cover Shepard entirely for the opening sequence in order to avoid this type of situation?

Given that the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor covers Hawke entirely, I don't see why we needed to default with a white protagonist, and I'm wondering if this will happen again in Dragon Age III.

I see what happened in DAII's opening as a poor storytelling mechanic.

Instead of immediately creating our character which we then see in the exaggerated opening, we see default Hawke slaughtering Darkspawn and then we get to craft our own Hawke.

So, if the framed narrative is used again, they need to rectify that.

[FKA_Servo]

Gosia wrote...

 Is this a serious thread? Because you know you weren’t forced to start DA II as a white person (unless we had different game versions) you could change your skin tone to any you wished. I have no idea what you are talking
about  as I had characters with the fairest to the darkest possible skin tone in that game.

In the beginning of the game, you just choose class and sex. The prologue has you playing as "iconic" Hawke, and then the actual character creator kicks in.

This was a questionable choice (although, the size of Bethany's bust in this "tall tale" prologue is amusing).

Modifié par TommyServo, 05 avril 2012 - 04:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Cultist wrote...

You could be anything 

True, but that avaliability happens right after we see Varric telling Cassandra about a clearly Caucasian Hawke, and his Caucasian sibling.

I simply don't see why that was necessary in the first place, when the Sir Isaac of Clarke armor could have easily hid Hawke's features for the opening scene. I'm wondering if this is going to transpire with the third protagonist in the Dragon Age series, because I don't see a need for the protagonist to start off with a default appearance. It gives off the impression that the "legend" of Hawke is that of a Caucasian Ferelden, and that seems to give a weird vibe - especially since some of us don't create a Caucasian protagonist.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the avaliability of the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor in Dragon Age II that covers the entire body, I'm not certain why Dragon Age II started us off with a white Hawke. For people who create a protagonist who isn't white, it simply seems weird to have Varric telling Cassandra about a Caucasian Hawke if he (or she) isn't supposed to be white. Didn't Mass Effect 2 cover Shepard entirely for the opening sequence in order to avoid this type of situation?

Given that the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor covers Hawke entirely, I don't see why we needed to default with a white protagonist, and I'm wondering if this will happen again in Dragon Age III.

I see what happened in DAII's opening as a poor storytelling mechanic.

Instead of immediately creating our character which we then see in the exaggerated opening, we see default Hawke slaughtering Darkspawn and then we get to craft our own Hawke.

So, if the framed narrative is used again, they need to rectify that.

Mike Laidlaw explained his reasoning for starting off with a battle prior to the character creation in this interview: “We saw a lot of people disengaging at hour one, hour two," with Laidlaw adding, "You get to an RPG and fire it up, and it hits you in the face with a thousand stats. Those stats are very cool, but you may not be mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with them as your first thing to do in the game.”

[TEWR]

Mike Laidlaw explained his reasoning for starting off with a battle prior to the character creation in this interview: “We saw a lot of people disengaging at hour one, hour two," with Laidlaw adding, "You get to an RPG and fire it up, and it hits you in the face with a thousand stats. Those stats are very cool, but you may not be mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with them as your first thing to do in the game.”

It's not the exaggerated part that gets me, but how you can't play your custom Hawke during the exaggerated part.

The exaggeration was a good storytelling mechanic. The forced playing of a default Hawke during it wasn't.

[Maria Caliban]

I decided that the iconic Hawke was a combination of Verric's storytelling and Cassandra's image of Hawke. Hawke is from Ferelden, a land of mostly fair skinned people, so she assumed Hawke was white. That doesn't speak highly of Cassandra's intelligence gathering, however, and she also has a book with accurate images of your companions.

So, yeah, there's no reason for a non-white Hawke to be white in the prologue.

[VampOrchid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see what happened in DAII's opening as a poor storytelling mechanic.

Instead of immediately creating our character which we then see in the exaggerated opening, we see default Hawke slaughtering Darkspawn and then we get to craft our own Hawke.

So, if the framed narrative is used again, they need to rectify that.

^This...

So it's really not that big of deal. At all...

It's not forcing you, it was a simple thing they missed and probably did a face palm after...

Plus there are many games out there where you HAVE to play a certain character. I get that this game you get to build your char...but at least you got to do it after. I'm sure it's something they are looking into for later games. But Bioware has always been about creating your own Main.

[thats1evildude]

You storytellers are all racist!

[Pedrak]

If that was the only flaw of DA2 (or even in the "top 50 flaws"), I would buy a different copy of the game each day just to kiss Hawke's beard on the cover. I mean, seriously.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mike Laidlaw explained his reasoning for starting off with a battle prior to the character creation in this interview: “We saw a lot of people disengaging at hour one, hour two," with Laidlaw adding, "You get to an RPG and fire it up, and it hits you in the face with a thousand stats. Those stats are very cool, but you may not be mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with them as your first thing to do in the game.”

This, on the other hand, is kind of scary. Or side-splittingly funny. Or both.
Do they really believe that prologue with awful combat, insipid location/enemies would be more engaging than an in-depth character creation?

I mean, what kind of moron buys a RPG and "disengages" because he gets to customize his character (one of the key features of RPGs, as every player knows) instead of a having a two-minutes ludicrously easy fight before that?

They are trying too hard to appeal to the "idiot" demographic.
Way. Too. Hard.

And guess what? Games like New Vegas, where the first action the player has to do after the introduction is dealing with character creation and "a thousand stats"... keep. selling. more.

Modifié par Pedrak, 05 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[Mad-Max90]

....for the lulz?

[thats1evildude]

Pedrak wrote...

This, on the other hand, is kind of scary. Or side-splittingly funny. Or both.
Do they really believe that prologue with awful combat, insipid location/enemies would be more engaging than an in-depth character creation?

It does serve as a pretty decent tutorial and sets up the framing device for the story.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

You storytellers are all racist!

I don't think your comment helps matters. All I'm doing is pointing out that I don't think it's necessary to force players to start off as a Caucasian protagonist, especially when covering the protagonist up entirely is fully avaliable (as it was in Dragon Age II with the Sir Isaac of Clarke armor). I don't see a need to repeat this in Dragon Age III, either.

[Pedrak]

thats1evildude wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

This, on the other hand, is kind of scary. Or side-splittingly funny. Or both.
Do they really believe that prologue with awful combat, insipid location/enemies would be more engaging than an in-depth character creation?

It does serve as a pretty decent tutorial and sets up the framing device for the story.

But those are not the reasons given in that quote. It was the "not wanting to scare/disengage people with character customization and stats" comment which I found amusing/sad.

Because it shows a notion of their players which is kind of offensive if wrong and depressing if correct (which I don't think it is).

Modifié par Pedrak, 05 avril 2012 - 04:49 .

[LobselVith8]

Pedrak wrote...

If that was the only flaw of DA2 (or even in the "top 50 flaws"), I would buy a different copy of the game each day just to kiss Hawke's beard on the cover. I mean, seriously.

I understand there are other criticisms about Dragon Age II. I was namely disappointed in how passive I felt Hawke was.

Pedrak wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw explained his reasoning for starting off with a battle prior to the character creation in this interview: “We saw a lot of people disengaging at hour one, hour two," with Laidlaw adding, "You get to an RPG and fire it up, and it hits you in the face with a thousand stats. Those stats are very cool, but you may not be mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with them as your first thing to do in the game.”

This, on the other hand, is kind of scary. Or side-splittingly funny. Or both.
Do they really believe that prologue with awful combat, insipid location/enemies would be more engaging than an in-depth character creation?

I mean, what kind of moron buys a RPG and "disengages" because he gets to customize his character (one of the key features of RPGs, as every player knows) instead of a having a two-minutes ludicrously easy fight before that?

They are trying too hard to appeal to the "idiot" demographic.
Way. Too. Hard.

And guess what? Games like New Vegas, where the first action the player has to do after the introduction is dealing with character creation and "a thousand stats"... keep. selling. more.

I'd also point out that Skyrim involves character creation before engaging in action as well, and that sold quite well.

That said, I've noticed the trend in the Dragon Age franchise of starting off with the action ever since the expansion Awakening.

[Joseph627]

To be honest, i wouldnt like the idea of playing as a asian dwarf or as a black elf, thats what the character creator is for imo, besides that i hope they will again ask the fans which protagonist should be picked, like they did with femshep in me3.

[BubbleDncr]

I would prefer to never see a version of my character prior to character creation. It bothered me at the time of playing, and while I forgot about it until I read this thread, I now remember.

It didn't make any sense, really. Varric exaggerates stories, makes them more interesting. How does describing Hawke as looking completely different from the person he knew fit into that?

[Melca36]

Remember if you chose Bethany....her breasts are twice the side when Varric tells the story.

[Eudaemonium]

This is something I hope they alter for the Next Thing. I kind of understnd why they did it, but it wasn't really a great decision.

[upsettingshorts]

It kills me how many people fail to understand what Varric was doing in describing the popular (and false) legend first. Especially in real life there's a painfully obvious everyday example of the same cultural appropriation phenomenon: White Jesus.

Melca36 wrote...

Remember if you chose Bethany....her breasts are twice the side when Varric tells the story.

 

Varric is always telling the story.

The first sequence is the false one the populace at large believes and relates to each other, which gets things wrong (like assuming Hawke is white like most people in Thedas are, or exaggerating Bethany's giant rack).

The second sequence is Varric telling Cassandra the truth, more or less.  Right there he's already giving Cassandra more accurate "inside" information she's looking for, simply by describing Hawke accurately.

I legitimately think people who fail to comprehend this are either too wrapped up in their own expectations to pay attention, or have zero critical thinking skills whatsoever.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 avril 2012 - 05:42 .

[Maria Caliban]

VampOrchid wrote...

So it's really not that big of deal. At all...

Questionable.

If BioWare had only given us the choice of dude Hawke, there would have been outrage on the BSN from those who wanted a female PC. If BioWare had Hawke make smoosh-face with Isabela, there would have been outrage on the BSN from those who hated Isabela or were going to romance someone else. If BioWare had only allowed Mage Hawke, there would have been outrage on the BSN from those who were going to play other classes.

If you're playing a non-white Hawke, having a white one show up in the prologue is a big deal. It's not like there's an in-game reason for this, unlike having only your brother or sister appear.

Varric has met Hawke. Cassandra had detailed information on Hawke and her companions.

But I've always been critical of BioWare's decision to create another pseudo-medieval whitelandia.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It kills me how many people fail to understand what Varric was doing in describing the popular (and false) legend first. Especially in real life there's a painfully obvious everyday example of the same cultural appropriation phenomenon: White Jesus.

Yes, but the people who tell the White Jesus story aren't those who've interacted with Jesus. Varric helped create the popular image of Hawke. He's Dwarven Mark.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 avril 2012 - 05:45 .

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It kills me how many people fail to understand what Varric was doing in describing the popular (and false) legend first. Especially in real life there's a painfully obvious everyday example of the same cultural appropriation phenomenon: White Jesus.

That took place over a span of centuries, not three years. During the era of the time of the Roman Emperor Justinian II, a coin was minted that depicted a non-white Joshua ben Joseph. The earliest known renditions of Jesus were done by the Essenes, who depicted him as a non-white man. I really don't see how you can claim that people would think that a non-white Hawke would be white during a span of three years.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Remember if you chose Bethany....her breasts are twice the side when Varric tells the story.

 

Varric is always telling the story.

The first sequence is the false one the populace at large believes and relates to each other, which gets things wrong (like assuming Hawke is white like most people in Thedas are, or exaggerating Bethany's giant rack).

The second sequence is Varric telling Cassandra the truth, more or less.  Right there he's already giving Cassandra more accurate "inside" information she's looking for, simply by describing Hawke accurately.

I don't see any serious reason for Varric to depict Hawke as a white Ferelden in his story, and I see no reason for the game developers to depict default Hawke as a white Ferelden when they could have easily shielded his features with the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor.

[FaWa]

To be honest, they should've just put the Character Creation right before the Fairy Tale Scene.