132 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That took place over a span of centuries, not three years. During the era of the time of the Roman Emperor Justinian II, a coin was minted that depicted a non-white Joshua ben Joseph. The earliest known renditions of Jesus were done by the Essenes, who depicted him as a non-white man. I really don't see how you can claim that people would think that a non-white Hawke would be white during a span of three years.

Varric claims it.  Cassandra confirms that he has been telling the popular account.

That's how I can claim it.  

Anything you or I could do to attempt to explain how this popular impression of Hawke's appearance has been (or couldn't have been, in your case) disseminated would simply be speculation.

Varric and Cassandra's interactions are sufficient.

LobselVith8 wrote... 

I don't see any serious reason for Varric to depict Hawke as a white Ferelden in his story, and I see no reason for the game developers to depict default Hawke as a white Ferelden when they could have easily shielded his features with the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor.

I just gave you one.

Plus, not everyone had that armor.  I didn't.  

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, but the people who tell the White Jesus story aren't those who've interacted with Jesus. Varric helped create the popular image of Hawke. He's Dwarven Mark.

 

That's assuming Varric ever wrote down what Hawke looked like.  He could be - and from Cassandra's reaction, is - just relating the popular narrative that Varric probably looks upon with mild amusement.

Mark didn't write about what Jesus looked like.  No-one did.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[Realmzmaster]

I can understand why they did it. Default Hawke was used in all the advertisements and commercials. Not the best decision. Bioware should have had a separate tutorial that walked new players through the creator creation process and basic techniques in the game. Veterans could skip the tutorial and go straight to the character creator then to the beginning of the story.

One more aspect I put to lack of development time and a design decision. This would be the polish you put on a game. Many games are leaving out good tutorials and manuals. The manuals in DAO and DA2 are inadequate compare to manuals and tutorials that came before. NWN had both a good tutorial and manual.

[DJ0000]

For me the issue was more that I play this small snippet of action then go into character creation where I spend half an hour getting everything right, then I get to start the game.

It just felt a bit disjointed between Cassandra calling Varrics' bull**** and him starting the description of Ostagar/Lothering.

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That took place over a span of centuries, not three years. During the era of the time of the Roman Emperor Justinian II, a coin was minted that depicted a non-white Joshua ben Joseph. The earliest known renditions of Jesus were done by the Essenes, who depicted him as a non-white man. I really don't see how you can claim that people would think that a non-white Hawke would be white during a span of three years.

Varric claims it.  Cassandra confirms that he has been telling the popular account.

Because the game designers provided us with a default white Hawke, which reminds me of when The Warden's parents would always remain white, regardless of whether The Warden was white or not. That doesn't mean it makes sense for anyone to think that Varric would change Hawke from a non-white Ferelden to a white Ferelden in his stories about the Champion of Kirkwall.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's how I can claim it.  

Anything you or I could do to attempt to explain how this popular impression of Hawke's appearance has been (or couldn't have been, in your case) disseminated would simply be speculation.

Varric and Cassandra's interactions are sufficient.

If the historical example you provided took centuries to transpire, I don't see how you can claim that makes sense.

The fact remains, the game designers didn't need to force Hawke to be a white protagonist when they could have easily shielded his appearance for the prologue, with the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see any serious reason for Varric to depict Hawke as a white Ferelden in his story, and I see no reason for the game developers to depict default Hawke as a white Ferelden when they could have easily shielded his features with the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor.

I just gave you one.

Plus, not everyone had that armor.  I didn't. 

The Ser Isaac armor is already part of Dragon Age II disc - the game simply needs to read that the player has Dead Space II in order to be accessed. Regardless, it's simply an example that Hawke could have been covered, so that this didn't need to happen. And I don't see a reason for Dragon Age III to repeat this mistake.

[AkiKishi]

People make stuff up. It's pretty clear this is Hawke the "legend" not Hawke the shmo (that's you).
It's a popularised fiction of the story.

[Darth Krytie]

I'm with the OP on this. I'm not particularly a fan of default being "white" or "white, male" in a lot of cases. I think it's important to be able to have your character be your character. And having the famous version of your character as white when they were actually black....that implication doesn't really feel comfortable to me at all. The question to me would always be, "so what's wrong with having a black hero?"

[upsettingshorts]

Darth Krytie wrote...

And having the famous version of your character as white when they were actually black....that implication doesn't really feel comfortable to me at all.

I really don't think it's supposed to.

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

And having the famous version of your character as white when they were actually black....that implication doesn't really feel comfortable to me at all.

I really don't think it's supposed to.

True. But, then it should be a piece of the story. Unless there's that sort of racial tension in the story. Or the race of the assumed character versus the actual character being a part of the conflict. Otherwise, it's just a poor decision on the part of the design team.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 05 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[uknowitbeb]

Coming from a person of color, I don't see the reason why you felt this "issue" needed to be addressed. It's the default Hawke, I don't see anything wrong with starting off as a white character. And it could easily be explained as what Varric wants people to think Hawke looks like.

[FKA_Servo]

Filament wrote...

They couldn't "simply" cover up his face. They didn't want to cover his face, that would have changed the aesthetic they were going for. You may as well say they could have simply turned him into a red lyrium behemoth.

Considering Varric is definitely exaggerating this scene, that might have worked. And it would have been hilarious.

Modifié par TommyServo, 05 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Personally I felt DA2 was highly offensive to non-bearded people and blondes.

[The dead fish]

Well, I didn't feel offended by that. Actually no, I didn't even think about that. It didn't come to my mind. I just thought :

" Oh crap Bioware, stop with your precious iconic Hawk absolutely ugly and let me begin my own Hawk for the love of god. " * rolling eyes * action => Varric blah blah blah => blackscreen => and finally character creator.

But yeah, they just shouldn't do the tutorial before the character creator.

[PinkShoes]

Tbh i think your being a little too sesntive and i honnestly dont think it matters.

[BillsVengenace]

As the whole ill-advised framed narrative and exaggerated opening was largely regarded as a failure I doubt the DA team will try to do it again.

[FKA_Servo]

BillsVengenace wrote...

As the whole ill-advised framed narrative and exaggerated opening was largely regarded as a failure I doubt the DA team will try to do it again.

Re the framed narrative - I'd like to see where it's "largely" regarded as a failure, because from what I've seen, that's not what people complain about. In fact, I think it's one thing that DA2 did very well. The implications of Varric as an unreliable narrator, especially regarding the characterization of your companions, get real interesting if you think them through a little bit.

The exaggerated opening was fine, too - it just shouldn't have preceded character creation.

Modifié par TommyServo, 05 avril 2012 - 09:12 .

[Jademoon121]

Thedas is basically Europe, so chances are you're going to see a lot of "white" people, and since Hawke basically comes from a mix of Saxon-England and Ireland, his default is going to be white.

Granted, I hope Bioware expands beyond Thedas and goes to other parts of the world like a mythical China or Mali Empire.

[lx_theo]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I'm with the OP on this. I'm not particularly a fan of default being "white" or "white, male" in a lot of cases. I think it's important to be able to have your character be your character. And having the famous version of your character as white when they were actually black....that implication doesn't really feel comfortable to me at all. The question to me would always be, "so what's wrong with having a black hero?"

I just think it'll be really funny when a black Hawke shows up later to those masses who heard his legend and then they realize they were all racist.

XD

 I get the impression that Varric didn't tell the color of the skin in the stories, and that the more common skin color was simply assumed by those spreading the tale.

Not a mistake in Game Design. Only lack of proper analysis by those offended.

[VampOrchid]

Darth Krytie wrote...

The question to me would always be, "so what's wrong with having a black hero?"

In that case what's wrong with having a female hero? Or a senior citizen?

There are many other things the hero 'could' be. However, Varric was giving his description of the 'perfect' hero according to stereotypical 'rock stars' of what would of been Medieval english times. He wanted people 'interested' it the story, and he wanted people to exagerate it to get it around. How does one do that? Ask the media. Exagerate what people 'believe' to be the best thing out there, so that it's so incredible sounding that you have to pay attention.

So Varric is probably just going by what people of that time are describing as the best of the best.

Does no one remember the telephone game? I say grape and like 18 people later you got a pink helicopter with spots and diamonds.

Yes, it's possible that the devs are saying that Varric did that intentionally because they are trying to cover up that they made a boo boo. But I don't think so. However, with feed back I do believe it will be something they avoid. Like the Couslands being white no matter what. They did clear that up and the entire time they were probably thinking 'insert face palm here'.  At least if you were dark skinned in DA2, or pale skinned so were your family memebers. That right there shows that they are paying attention. So I say that the beginning 'white' character was done on perpose.

But if I was that offended by having a white character thrown infront of me all the time, I wouldn't have bought half the games that I do have that are rpgs. Look at the cover of any ME game....I'm an Irish, German, Canadian Native, that means I have weird colored skin with freckles and hair that is slowly going from Dark brown to blonde and red. I'm a mutt. So whatever, black/white...male/female. I know Varric was telling a story, and was then made to tell the Truth. Got my attention!

[Eudaemonium]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It kills me how many people fail to understand what Varric was doing in describing the popular (and false) legend first. Especially in real life there's a painfully obvious everyday example of the same cultural appropriation phenomenon: White Jesus.

This is one of the reasons (marketting and 'getting into the action' being others) for which I support them. You can also read it as a rather clever bit of social commentary, which DA2 is rather full of. I'm not sure it was the best decision from the perspective of the players, but I acknowledge the myriad reasons they decided to do it and, to an extent, support them on that decision.

[Eudaemonium]

Darth Krytie wrote...

And having the famous version of your character as white when they were actually black....that implication doesn't really feel comfortable to me at all.

I kind of think that was the point.

[Melca36]

TommyServo wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

As the whole ill-advised framed narrative and exaggerated opening was largely regarded as a failure I doubt the DA team will try to do it again.

Re the framed narrative - I'd like to see where it's "largely" regarded as a failure, because from what I've seen, that's not what people complain about. In fact, I think it's one thing that DA2 did very well. The implications of Varric as an unreliable narrator, especially regarding the characterization of your companions, get real interesting if you think them through a little bit.

The exaggerated opening was fine, too - it just shouldn't have preceded character creation.

The developers have said in a post awhile back that it was a misstep with the game.

[Mermaid Claire]

I never really thought of Varric having full control over the accepted "image" of Hawke. I saw him as helping to build the legend, but perhaps losing control over large parts as it went along. I suppose I could see it happening like this: 1) Varric describes Hawke's attributes during the stories and perhaps even gives a real account of what she looked like, 2) People hear the stories and immediately believe Hawke to be an attractive person whether she was or was not as their minds would tend to create an attractive image of the hero, 3) an artist who is a fan of the story creates a painting without Varric's input as to how they believe Hawke looked without any research at all, 4) people accept this painting as true and it becomes popular with fans of the legend. So when Varric goes to tell the story of Hawke from then on, he allows that legendary image to stay not because he necessarily wants to but it isn't like he will ever change the way Hawke is perceived once it is believed by the masses. This is how I always thought of it in my mind at least!

[Dom Carlos]

Mermaid Claire wrote...

I never really thought of Varric having full control over the accepted "image" of Hawke. I saw him as helping to build the legend, but perhaps losing control over large parts as it went along. I suppose I could see it happening like this: 1) Varric describes Hawke's attributes during the stories and perhaps even gives a real account of what she looked like, 2) People hear the stories and immediately believe Hawke to be an attractive person whether she was or was not as their minds would tend to create an attractive image of the hero, 3) an artist who is a fan of the story creates a painting without Varric's input as to how they believe Hawke looked without any research at all, 4) people accept this painting as true and it becomes popular with fans of the legend. So when Varric goes to tell the story of Hawke from then on, he allows that legendary image to stay not because he necessarily wants to but it isn't like he will ever change the way Hawke is perceived once it is believed by the masses. This is how I always thought of it in my mind at least!

I thought something like that too; Varric gives his description of how Hawke is, and the masses adapt it to their view. Pretty much like a "telephone" game.