132 réponses à ce sujet

[Androme]

 In the DA universe, white is not ''caucasian''. White is basically anything but Rivaini, which are dark-skinned humans. So yes, ''Ethnic-Ferelden (white)'' Hawke DOES make sense.

[FKA_Servo]

Androme wrote...

 In the DA universe, white is not ''caucasian''. White is basically anything but Rivaini, which are dark-skinnedhumans. So yes, ''Ethnic-Ferelden (white)'' Hawke DOES make sense.

I'm curious whether this is a fact, or something that you just made up.

@sjpelkessjpeler, Jimmytheprothean, and others:

That's actually not even what I was referring to. This is really only addressing the logic fail that a setting like Thedas, if it is based on medieval Europe, would not have anyone but caucasian people.

There are a lot of places in Thedas we haven't seen. A lot of people we haven't seen. Thedas is in the southern hemisphere. People Live north of Rivain, around the equator. There was an entire empire of humans living on Par Vollen when the Qunari invaded.

Think about the cities. Ferelden is analogous to England. True. Lothering might be the armpit of Ferelden, but once you get to a port city like Denerim? If you wanted to make the intuitive comparison to medieval Europe well...a big city like Denerim or Kirkwall - trading ports - wouldn't be nearly as whitewashed as they appear in the game. London, Rome, all these places had foreign merchants, traders, and travelers. It was profoundly multicultural. Hell, Antiva is broadly based on mediterranean countries like Spain and Italy. Spain was once part of the Umayyad Moorish empire.

Consider Kirkwall. For hundreds of years, it was the gateway to the Tevinter Imperium. Hundreds of thousands of people from all corners of Thedas, citizens and slaves alike, traveled through and settled. This is a place that, if you want to apply logic, should be have people of all colors, from all over the continent, possibly beyond. All we've seen is Rivain, so far. And you know how many Rivaini have been main characters? 

Two. Duncan and Isabela.

I get that the cities in the game are "game cities." It's far more than what we actually see, and we should scale everything up to get an idea of how big and populous it actually is. A comparison that springs to mind (if you've played World of Warcraft) is Stormwind. According to the lore, it's a city with tens of thousands of citizens. It has the largest population of high elves in the alliance - around 10,000. Of course, the city the player gets has about fifty named NPCs. Less than ten of whom are elves.

So yeah, everything is scaled down. But if they're basing these cultures on real places and periods in history, having nearly every single NPC as caucasion is a lousy representation. Worse, it's internally inconsistent, and if they are striving to create a well-realized world, these big cities should appear far more cosmopolitan.

This is something that has come up many times before, and I know that Dave Gaider and others are aware of it. Here's hoping they take it to heart.

EDIT: For formatting. This forum doesn't like it when you paste things in.

Modifié par TommyServo, 06 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[katiebour]

 From a mechanics standpoint, they could have covered Hawke from head to toe in whatever version of armor they chose (a la Shepard in ME2) but in order to be race-neutral they'd have had to do the same with Bethany or Carver as well.  Otherwise they'd have run into the same problem with the Warden's family being a different color than the Warden him/herself.

I agree they could have offered the CC before the cutscene, but I understand the game designers wanting to offer some gameplay before popping you into a screen where you haggle over sliders for a half-hour.

And Varric's telling the story to Cassandra, who's filling in the blanks herself.  Maybe default Hawke and his/her sibling is what Cassandra thinks they look like.

Fereldens and Orlesians (from the colder, more southerly, closer to the south-pole regions) tend to be pale, as the following characters demonstrate:

Alistair
Anora
Cailan Theirin
Cauthrien
Cullen
Eamon Guerrin
Ferdinand Genitivi
Greagoir
Irving
Loghain Mac Tir
Morrigan
Nathaniel Howe
Uldred
Varel

Aveline Vallen
Gascard DuPuis
Isolde
Leliana
Marjolaine
Prosper
Riordan

Thus a Ferelden-Origin Hawke might well be assumed to be similar.  In contrast, Antivans, some Marchers, some Tevinters, Nevarrans, and Rivaini (from the warmer and more northerly closer-to-the-equator countries) all tend to have darker skin:

Duncan
Isabela
Sebastian
Alain
Fenris
Zevran
Nuncio
Vincento
Cassandra
Ginnis

There are exceptions (and no doubt the wealthy, who might spend most of their days indoors and out of the heat would maintain a less tanned complexion) but since Hawke is known to be from Ferelden, Cassandra might well assume that he/she has pale skin.

My Hawkes always have lovely dark skin, and for them I headcanon that Malcolm was originally from somewhere in the north, thus passing down his looks to his family.    But everyone's custom Hawke will be different, and even Cassandra's idea of Hawke (read:  the iconic Hawkes) may be different from the player's.

Edit:  Fixed and added a few names

Modifié par katiebour, 06 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[katiebour]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
The world of DA isn't only Thedas. The Qunari came from somewhere too, just like the humans did when they came to Thedas when only the elves lived there.

So Thedas is like a continent on the DA globe.

Absolutely.  And that is one of the things I love about the Thedan world:  the Anderfelsian north ends in what appears to be inpenetrable jungle, Sten refers to the jungles of Seheron, and Par Vollen is just at the very top of the known map.

We have an entire region north of the equator that we've never seen, plus the possibility of other continents to the east/west.  And we've barely even scratched the surface of the known Thedan countries, like Antiva/Rivain/Nevarra/Orlais/Tevinter/The Anderfels/Qundalon/Par Vollen.  There's so much left to investigate in (the hopefully numerous) future games

[Maria Caliban]

As I stated previously, Cassandra has information on Hawke including correct drawings of several of her associates. You're telling me that Cassandra knows what Merrill, Isabela, Anders, and Fenris look like, but not Hawke?

[The Elder King]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As I stated previously, Cassandra has information on Hawke including correct drawings of several of her associates. You're telling me that Cassandra knows what Merrill, Isabela, Anders, and Fenris look like, but not Hawke?

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. There were probably more people that knew Hawke's face than Fenris's (or Anders and Merrill, though Fenris was definitely more reclusive).

[The Elder King]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...



That's why I hope that the next DA will cover a bigger part of Thedas just like in DAO. I really liked the concept of DA2: Kirkwall and surroundings (concept: not satisfied by the way it was worked out) but now its time to let us see more of the continent.

Like you say; Antiva, Rivain etc. now need some attention. BW has allready hinted that the "playworld" would get bigger soooooo .

The Next Thing will  probably be set in Orlais, considering what Laidlaw said at PAX.

Modifié par hhh89, 06 avril 2012 - 10:14 .

[Eragondragonrider]

I would love DA3 to have as big of a world as Reckoning.

[katiebour]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As I stated previously, Cassandra has information on Hawke including correct drawings of several of her associates. You're telling me that Cassandra knows what Merrill, Isabela, Anders, and Fenris look like, but not Hawke?

Here's a cropped shot  of mine, taken directly from the game:

 

Notice there's no Hawke in that pic.  I seem to recall from the ending sequence with Cassandra that there is an artistically rendered portrait of a very vague Hawke-like figure- I recall the armor more than the figure.  Hell, I almost always play a female Hawke and the figure doesn't even look like a woman.

In-game, Varric admits to telling stories of Hawke ripping an ogre's arms off, etc, and that a good hero is a mixture of brave and crazy.  He says he'll make up information regarding a Hawke and Anders romance if he doesn't get details.  I don't remember all of the dialogue, but I think you can basically assume whatever information there is regarding Hawke (and possibly the companions), romance, physical appearance or personality-wise is inaccurate/exaggerated for the sake of story.

Modifié par katiebour, 06 avril 2012 - 10:32 .

[Diablos2525]

LobselVith8 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

You storytellers are all racist!

I don't think your comment helps matters. All I'm doing is pointing out that I don't think it's necessary to force players to start off as a Caucasian protagonist, especially when covering the protagonist up entirely is fully avaliable (as it was in Dragon Age II with the Sir Isaac of Clarke armor). I don't see a need to repeat this in Dragon Age III, either.

So if you had started as a sub-saharan african protaganist it would have been okay? You come across as very defensive about your racism. Why are you only complaining about Caucasians specifically, why not just make your point by stating that it shouldn't shoehorn you into one race?

[Dokarqt]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the avaliability of the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor in Dragon Age II that covers the entire body, I'm not certain why Dragon Age II started us off with a white Hawke. For people who create a protagonist who isn't white, it simply seems weird to have Varric telling Cassandra about a Caucasian Hawke if he (or she) isn't supposed to be white. Didn't Mass Effect 2 cover Shepard entirely for the opening sequence in order to avoid this type of situation?

Given that the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor covers Hawke entirely, I don't see why we needed to default with a white protagonist, and I'm wondering if this will happen again in Dragon Age III.

Why did bioware force me to start playing as a dark haired caucasian? Why not a blonde/ginger caucasian?

I've never played through DA2 as the "default" Hawke, my last Hawke was a very dark skinned chasind. I really don't see why this is bothersome.

[esper]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

katiebour wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
The world of DA isn't only Thedas. The Qunari came from somewhere too, just like the humans did when they came to Thedas when only the elves lived there.

So Thedas is like a continent on the DA globe.

Absolutely.  And that is one of the things I love about the Thedan world:  the Anderfelsian north ends in what appears to be inpenetrable jungle, Sten refers to the jungles of Seheron, and Par Vollen is just at the very top of the known map.

We have an entire region north of the equator that we've never seen, plus the possibility of other continents to the east/west.  And we've barely even scratched the surface of the known Thedan countries, like Antiva/Rivain/Nevarra/Orlais/Tevinter/The Anderfels/Qundalon/Par Vollen.  There's so much left to investigate in (the hopefully numerous) future games

That's why I hope that the next DA will cover a bigger part of Thedas just like in DAO. I really liked the concept of DA2: Kirkwall and surroundings (concept: not satisfied by the way it was worked out) but now its time to let us see more of the continent.

Like you say; Antiva, Rivain etc. now need some attention. BW has allready hinted that the "playworld" would get bigger soooooo .

I would rather get to know a country than to only see a little of a lot of countries. I am so dissapointed that we didn't see more of the Free Marches. If we go to Orlais I want to see more than Val Royox. Orlais is big, so there is plenty of playroom. One country per game, thank you.

[Cat Fancy]

I don't understand how basics about Hawke's physical appearance wouldn't have been well-known. S/he was kind of a big deal. Intra-human racism as we know it may not exist in Thedas (or maybe it does; haven't read a lot of supplemental material), but it does in the real world, so hopefully Bioware is more careful to avoid this kind of thing in the future.

Also, yeah, that intro was an unnecessary pace-killer.

[wetnasty]

Errrrrmmmm.... My main Hawke was a Pacific Islander and so was the rest of his family.

Also, echoing what people said etc.

Modifié par wetnasty, 07 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[K_Tabris]

I want to play as an elf in DA 3.

[esper]

umwhatyousay wrote...

I don't understand how basics about Hawke's physical appearance wouldn't have been well-known. S/he was kind of a big deal. Intra-human racism as we know it may not exist in Thedas (or maybe it does; haven't read a lot of supplemental material), but it does in the real world, so hopefully Bioware is more careful to avoid this kind of thing in the future.

Also, yeah, that intro was an unnecessary pace-killer.

Given how fun Varric is of hyberpole Hawke is proberly three meter tall, fire eyes and capable of killing a high dragon by poking it in the mind of the average marcher. Maker, knows how she is when Cassandra finally hears it.

More seriously, Is still think that the theory that it is Cassandra's self insert that is the most logical for default Hawke. As for Hawke I like to think that after da2 Varric spread conflicting accounts about how Hawke looks to make it easier for her to dissapear.

[FKA_Servo]

Diablos2525 wrote...


So if you had started as a sub-saharan african protaganist it would have been okay? You come across as very defensive about your racism. Why are you only complaining about Caucasians specifically, why not just make your point by stating that it shouldn't shoehorn you into one race?

Clearly, the OP is a racist. <_< 

Im pretty sure that evildude was making a joke. In any event, that IS the point. You shouldn't be shoehorned into any race, but you are. The whole thing could be avoided if you had the character creator in the beginning. If you envision Hawke as African or Asian or Irish or Samoan - s/he should look that way from the start. There's plenty for Varric to exaggerate, either way. Setting the "default" or "iconic" iteration as white right off the bat is incredibly tone deaf. 

I get the justification for it, and I dig Berelinde's explanation, but the whole thing still makes me raise an eyebrow. If you are playing a game that allows you to define the race and sex of the protagonist, defaulting it to anything at any point is a crappy thing to do. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 07 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[Dessalines]

I am someone who has long believe that fantasy settings should be more diverse for a variety of reasons. I mean people can imagine elves and dragons, but they cannot a place Africans and Asians are present.. I  always found that odd.

As for Dragon Age II, I actually thought it worked because Varric began telling the "fantasy" story of Hawke that most people had heard. I did not feel like I was being forced into playing a "white" Hawke, I was just hearing the "fantasy" version of Hawke. Cassandra calls him on it, and he goes, "Well, Hawke did not have any fancy armor, it wasn't just Hawke and his sibling, and Hawke looked liked this. (insert your character creation in here) I think that made it cool. That still happens today, when the "fantasy" version of person is completely different for what the person looked like in reality.

Modifié par Dessalines, 08 avril 2012 - 11:40 .

[Sejborg]

A hate the way the game starts. It is just so weird. "Woops - all that was just a lie - here is the real story lol" and then I get to make my Hawke.

What's the rush? Just let me make my character and then start the game, instead of throwing me in and out of character creation. Just stop trying to put the character creation seemless into the story. Just stop. You can't do it, because I use an hour anyway when I decide how to look, and what class to be, so when I get back into the story I almost need a recap anyway.

[Diablos2525]

TommyServo wrote...

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

OOH BOOHO man! your like the people complaining why there are no Black people in the lord of the rings. The setting is based on Medival Europe and the closest you will get to a black person would be the rivaini people.Hawke is from ferelden which is based on Saxon England,Celtic Ireland and Scotland and back in the day there certainly would not have been Other coloured people there.

This is a staggeringly ignorant post. You should take a history course.

Not really, most Europeans during the Middle Ages would have never seen a sub-saharan african. You have to remember the Ottoman Empire basically saw them as slaves and treated them harshly they didn't really migrate north except into Ethiopia. In fact my mother is from Portugal and she never saw a sub-saharan african until she came to America forty years ago.