132 réponses à ce sujet

[Diablos2525]

syllogi wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Of all the things to **** about, this is about the lowest on the list and really a non issue.

Caucasian people the go to for most games, deal with it.

No.

And it's not a non issue.  White folks are a minority on this planet, making "white" the default needs to be put in the past permanently.  Deal with it.

It's very easy to put the character creator at the very beginning, and it doesn't break immersion.  If you're playing an RPG, you expect a character creation screen.

This was not my biggest issue with DA2, by far, but it was the first annoyance I had, since it was the first thing I saw when I started the game.  I'd be very happy to never see this mechanic used again.

So the default should be chinese then? Since your criterion for the default seems to be which race has the highest population. You certainly come across as hateful.

Modifié par Diablos2525, 08 avril 2012 - 02:36 .

[Diablos2525]

TommyServo wrote...

Diablos2525 wrote...


So if you had started as a sub-saharan african protaganist it would have been okay? You come across as very defensive about your racism. Why are you only complaining about Caucasians specifically, why not just make your point by stating that it shouldn't shoehorn you into one race?

Clearly, the OP is a racist. <_< 

Im pretty sure that evildude was making a joke. In any event, that IS the point. You shouldn't be shoehorned into any race, but you are. The whole thing could be avoided if you had the character creator in the beginning. If you envision Hawke as African or Asian or Irish or Samoan - s/he should look that way from the start. There's plenty for Varric to exaggerate, either way. Setting the "default" or "iconic" iteration as white right off the bat is incredibly tone deaf. 

I get the justification for it, and I dig Berelinde's explanation, but the whole thing still makes me raise an eyebrow. If you are playing a game that allows you to define the race and sex of the protagonist, defaulting it to anything at any point is a crappy thing to do. 

I completely agree, it just came across as racist before, I apologize if I misinterpreted your tone. I just hate when people think racism is okay so long as it's targeted at Caucasians. Racism is never okay, and quite frankly there are some other races which have an even more violent history than Caucasians, the focus and anger today just seems to be placed on them. Everyone should be judged by their character.

[Adanu]

Theres nitpicking, then theres making mountains out of anthills.

This topic is the latter.

[Ladybright]

Diablos2525 wrote...


So if you had started as a sub-saharan african protaganist it would have been okay? You come across as very defensive about your racism. Why are you only complaining about Caucasians specifically, why not just make your point by stating that it shouldn't shoehorn you into one race?

OP mentioned starting off as a white protagonist not because he hates white people, but because the game does indeed start you off as a white protagonist. 

I completely agree, it just came across as racist before, I apologize if I misinterpreted your tone. I just hate when people think racism is okay so long as it's targeted at Caucasians. Racism is never okay, and quite frankly there are some other races which have an even more violent history than Caucasians, the focus and anger today just seems to be placed on them. Everyone should be judged by their character.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "some races have an even more violent history than Caucasians." Are you conflating different cultures? There is no racial monoculture. Aboriginal Australians and the Yoruba (from west Africa) have completely different cultures and histories, yet they would both be considered black. "Asian" is an umbrella term that covers peoples from Asia, including disparate groups as the Mongols and the Thai. They too have different cultures and histories, yet would both be termed "Asian".

The complaint only makes sense if one subscribes to the notion of "all [insert race] people are all the same," which I hope you didn't mean to say.

[PsychoBlonde]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given that the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor covers Hawke entirely, I don't see why we needed to default with a white protagonist, and I'm wondering if this will happen again in Dragon Age III.

I'm not sure what the Dead Space armor has to do with this issue, considering many people did not play Dead Space and thus wouldn't have access to it.

I'm not personally annoyed at this issue, exactly.  What annoys me more is that it's not really possible to play a black protagonist in the DA games.  Even the very "darkest" skin tones look like a white person with a deep tan (at best!).  There's a subtle, but to anyone with an artistic eye, very distinct difference between someone with a naturally darker skin tone and someone with a tan, and I find it personally very annoying.  Rich dark skin is very beautiful to me and I'd like to be able to play a proper character with it.

That being said, I think the opening to DA2 was kind of botched.  They had some neat ideas, but I don't think it was implemented well.  I also think there's been enough feedback along those lines that it won't happen again (although they may well come up with new and creative ways for it to suck.)

I really enjoyed the openings of Baldur's Gate and BG2--they were not tedious even on multiple play-throughs, and there were benefits for being thorough on replays. Even Neverwinter Nights wasn't too bad.  KotOR was decent.  The Origins were kind of neat--I think where DAO had problems was in the fact that the whole Ostagar sequence was way too long and became INCREDIBLY boring when you did it again.

The very best opening, however, was in KotOR2 (Obsidian).  It was excellent, easily the best part of the game, introducing you to story and gameplay in a self-paced but sensible and complex way.  It was In Medias Res done right--dropping you into the middle of a *situation* you needed to explore and make sense of, without doing the silly shortcut of just dumping in a bunch of combat and "family members" dying on you and expecting you to give a hoot.  In contrast, I actually felt bad in KotOR2 when I discovered the fates of the miners and staff killed by HK-47, even though I only encountered them through their holo logs.  There was genuine pathos there.

[FKA_Servo]

Diablos2525 wrote...

So the default should be chinese then? Since your criterion for the default seems to be which race has the highest population. You certainly come across as hateful.

Hoo boy. Can't really tell if your kidding, but this is the BSN I guess. 

First of all, I can't think of a reason why the default shouldn't be Asian. One thing that many people gloss over is the fact that while Hawke may have been raised in Ferelden, his or her parents were not. Leandra is from Kirkwall, and you can't assume her ethnicity for the reasons stated in my earlier post. Malcom we never see. 

There are two problems here. One is that you are forced to play as an "iconic" or default Hawke at all. The other problem is that the "iconic" Hawke is (according to the cinematics and promotional material)...a white dude. There is no inherent  reason for the ostensible hero of the game to be portrayed as a white male, like the hero of pretty much every. Other. Game. Other than the status quo, I suppose. 

I'll ask people to once again look at your DVD shelf, or your game shelf. Once again, I'll ask that you count the movies and games in which the protagonist is a white guy, as opposed to a woman, or a person of color. Or any combination thereof. That's an issue. Many people recognize that it's an issue. It's a problem if you do not. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 08 avril 2012 - 04:35 .

[FKA_Servo]

Diablos2525 wrote...

I completely agree, it just came across as racist before, I apologize if I misinterpreted your tone. I just hate when people think racism is okay so long as it's targeted at Caucasians. Racism is never okay, and quite frankly there are some other races which have an even more violent history than Caucasians, the focus and anger today just seems to be placed on them. Everyone should be judged by their character.

Here's the point. Whoosh!
.
.
.
.
And here you are:

Once again, I'm impressed.

[mopotter]

I have to admit I would like to start out the game the way I want my character to look from the beginning. I liked the way Skyrim did it. I didn't see my character until I went to create her. I didn't hate the way DA2 did it, but yes, it would be nice to start out the game the way I want to look.

[withneelandi]

I think there is a perfectly reasonable argument to be made, that in Varric's "legendary" version of events, it would have made much more sense to have the main character in head to toe, massive armour and about 3 feet taller than they were in reality.

It would highlight that this is an exagerated over the top version of events, and avoid the issue of contradicting the appearance of a created character.

The question I would ask, is why does the opening sequence force ANY appearance on the hero, when it would have been really easy to leave them faceless until the character creator kicked in.

[Silfren]

Adanu wrote...

Theres nitpicking, then theres making mountains out of anthills.

This topic is the latter.

Who gets to be the arbiter of what is or is not important?  You?  Why?  Because YOU don't consider this important, nobody else should?

Starting the PC off as white, for ANY reason, is racist.  It's an assumption catering to other assumptions that make white the default.  This assumption IS racist, and there is no reason for it to happen.  

As has been pointed out, Bioware could very easily have avoided the problem while maintaining the opening Exaggerated Narrative, but they chose not to.  I'm guessing it simply did not occur to the development team that anyone would mind.  That, in itself, is another assumption, and one based on belief that white is the default.  Again, this is a racist assumption.  Racism doesn't have to be overt, or violent, to exist.  

The bottom line of all this is that for all the positive steps Bioware has taken toward being inclusive to all its fans and doing a good job of avoiding many of the prejudiced tropes put out by other game companies, it still has a long way to go.  There's a reason why the woman who first recommended Dragon Age to me referred to it on her blog as being "the least sexist game I've ever played, ya'll."  In this, she had an excellent point.  Being the LEAST problematic, and BETTER than other companies, makes the point that it still has plenty of problems that need to be addressed.  This implicit racism that manifests as defaulting the PC to white is one of those problems.

And of course we have someone going "BUT RACISM HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE TOO" which completely disregards the reality of living in a white-dominant culture, which is the very reason why this topic is happening, because it is exactly because of white-dominant culture that Bioware defaulted to a white PC in the first place.  I'm not sure which comment here is my favorite, that one, or the earlier one of "I'm a person of color and I'M NOT OFFENDED!" which of course means that no one else should be bothered either, because They Have Spoken.

Instead of jumping to defend the problem, explain it away, accuse the OP of being racist, and dismissing the problem as no big deal, people here would do themselves a favor to shut up and listen to what the OP and its proponents are trying to say. 

Modifié par Silfren, 08 avril 2012 - 06:25 .

[Lord Gremlin]

I think they learned their lesson - character creation takes place before character is shown on screen.

[Joseph627]

Silfren wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Theres nitpicking, then theres making mountains out of anthills.

This topic is the latter.

Who gets to be the arbiter of what is or is not important?  You?  Why?  Because YOU don't consider this important, nobody else should?

Starting the PC off as white, for ANY reason, is racist.  It's an assumption catering to other assumptions that make white the default.  This assumption IS racist, and there is no reason for it to happen.  

As has been pointed out, Bioware could very easily have avoided the problem while maintaining the opening Exaggerated Narrative, but they chose not to.  I'm guessing it simply did not occur to the development team that anyone would mind.  That, in itself, is another assumption, and one based on belief that white is the default.  Again, this is a racist assumption.  Racism doesn't have to be overt, or violent, to exist.  

The bottom line of all this is that for all the positive steps Bioware has taken toward being inclusive to all its fans and doing a good job of avoiding many of the prejudiced tropes put out by other game companies, it still has a long way to go.  There's a reason why the woman who first recommended Dragon Age to me referred to it on her blog as being "the least sexist game I've ever played, ya'll."  In this, she had an excellent point.  Being the LEAST problematic, and BETTER than other companies, makes the point that it still has plenty of problems that need to be addressed.  This implicit racism that manifests as defaulting the PC to white is one of those problems.

And of course we have someone going "BUT RACISM HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE TOO" which completely disregards the reality of living in a white-dominant culture, which is the very reason why this topic is happening, because it is exactly because of white-dominant culture that Bioware defaulted to a white PC in the first place.  I'm not sure which comment here is my favorite, that one, or the earlier one of "I'm a person of color and I'M NOT OFFENDED!" which of course means that no one else should be bothered either, because They Have Spoken.

Instead of jumping to defend the problem, explain it away, accuse the OP of being racist, and dismissing the problem as no big deal, people here would do themselves a favor to shut up and listen to what the OP and its proponents are trying to say. 

omgosh thats just, to whiny. be happy that dragon age doesnt have a fixed protagonist. then, you wouldnt even get the option to be black or a women in the game. Look at assassins creed, it has 3 games the third one is coming out this year and all of its protagonists have been white and men, go to those developers and start attacking them to be sexist and racist but dragon age? its from the company that made Jade empire? hello? Dragon age would be the last game that i would call racist,  depending on your choice of hawkes colour his/her families' colour would even change.They also couldnt have bother making it, it would have been easier for them but they did it and still you are calling them racist? besides orlais main population doesnt look black or asian to me, so i think the "default" protagonist is going to be white again. sorry you have to deal with it. People that start this "you are racist" things are just desperately racist too imo. 

[Dave of Canada]

MY WARDEN WAS WHITE IN THE CHARACTER CREATION WHEN I LOADED IT UP, IT WAS RACIST.

[Silfren]

Joseph627 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Theres nitpicking, then theres making mountains out of anthills.

This topic is the latter.

Who gets to be the arbiter of what is or is not important?  You?  Why?  Because YOU don't consider this important, nobody else should?

Starting the PC off as white, for ANY reason, is racist.  It's an assumption catering to other assumptions that make white the default.  This assumption IS racist, and there is no reason for it to happen.  

As has been pointed out, Bioware could very easily have avoided the problem while maintaining the opening Exaggerated Narrative, but they chose not to.  I'm guessing it simply did not occur to the development team that anyone would mind.  That, in itself, is another assumption, and one based on belief that white is the default.  Again, this is a racist assumption.  Racism doesn't have to be overt, or violent, to exist.  

The bottom line of all this is that for all the positive steps Bioware has taken toward being inclusive to all its fans and doing a good job of avoiding many of the prejudiced tropes put out by other game companies, it still has a long way to go.  There's a reason why the woman who first recommended Dragon Age to me referred to it on her blog as being "the least sexist game I've ever played, ya'll."  In this, she had an excellent point.  Being the LEAST problematic, and BETTER than other companies, makes the point that it still has plenty of problems that need to be addressed.  This implicit racism that manifests as defaulting the PC to white is one of those problems.

And of course we have someone going "BUT RACISM HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE TOO" which completely disregards the reality of living in a white-dominant culture, which is the very reason why this topic is happening, because it is exactly because of white-dominant culture that Bioware defaulted to a white PC in the first place.  I'm not sure which comment here is my favorite, that one, or the earlier one of "I'm a person of color and I'M NOT OFFENDED!" which of course means that no one else should be bothered either, because They Have Spoken.

Instead of jumping to defend the problem, explain it away, accuse the OP of being racist, and dismissing the problem as no big deal, people here would do themselves a favor to shut up and listen to what the OP and its proponents are trying to say. 

omgosh thats just, to whiny. be happy that dragon age doesnt have a fixed protagonist. then, you wouldnt even get the option to be black or a women in the game. Look at assassins creed, it has 3 games the third one is coming out this year and all of its protagonists have been white and men, go to those developers and start attacking them to be sexist and racist but dragon age? its from the company that made Jade empire? hello? Dragon age would be the last game that i would call racist,  depending on your choice of hawkes colour his/her families' colour would even change.They also couldnt have bother making it, it would have been easier for them but they did it and still you are calling them racist? besides orlais main population doesnt look black or asian to me, so i think the "default" protagonist is going to be white again. sorry you have to deal with it. People that start this "you are racist" things are just desperately racist too imo. 

Whiny?  No, there was nothing whiny about my post at all.  It was perfectly reasonable.  Your words indicate that you chose to disregard everything I wrote without considering it at all, and thus you only proved my point.  Good job.

[VampOrchid]

Joseph627 wrote...

People that start this "you are racist" things are just desperately racist too imo. 

Nice. Fist bump.

[Sylvianus]

Does it affect some people if we have the character creator first ? I don't think it's impossible for Bioware to do that.

[FKA_Servo]

Joseph627 wrote...

omgosh thats just, to whiny. be happy that dragon age doesnt have a fixed protagonist. then, you wouldnt even get the option to be black or a women in the game. Look at assassins creed, it has 3 games the third one is coming out this year and all of its protagonists have been white and men, go to those developers and start attacking them to be sexist and racist but dragon age? its from the company that made Jade empire? hello? Dragon age would be the last game that i would call racist,  depending on your choice of hawkes colour his/her families' colour would even change.They also couldnt have bother making it, it would have been easier for them but they did it and still you are calling them racist? besides orlais main population doesnt look black or asian to me, so i think the "default" protagonist is going to be white again. sorry you have to deal with it. People that start this "you are racist" things are just desperately racist too imo.

Ah, this old chestnut. "You're the one bringing up race in the first place! YOU must be the racist!"

Fun fact, smart guy: the protagonist from Assassins Creed is Arabic. From what I've heard (admittedly not much), the protagonist in AC3 is native American. So good on them. 

I am not calling Bioware racist. I'm not calling the act of making default Hawke (or Shepard, or Revan) a white guy overtly racist, either. And I think it's genuinely wonderful that you can make a hero that breaks all barriers of race, gender, and (in my mind, equally important) sexual orientation. The shameful thing is that in 2012, that's still an anomaly.  I think Bioware is better than this, and they should strive to live up to the reputation they've made. 

Rather, I am suggesting that the prevalence of white male protagonists, and the idea that they are the only thing that is marketable, is the direct consequence of some seriously pernicious, unconscious, underlying racist attitudes that are deeply ingrained in society. These are walls that need to be torn down. You, and others in this thread who likely know who they are, show a dismaying lack of reflection and perspective. You should be ashamed. 

At the end of the day, this is all an excellent argument in favor of ditching "iconic" protagonists entirely.

EDIT: Formatting up this shiz.

Modifié par TommyServo, 08 avril 2012 - 11:49 .

[VampOrchid]

I think we just need to focus on bigger things that make DA a good game...little boo boos like that I'm sure Bioware is already facepalming themselves and doing changes for the next game.

The company isn't racist...they're just trying to make a fun game.

[The_11thDoctor]

Is this really a big deal? I mean yes my Hawke looked like he was dipped in chocolate, but I had the option of making Hawke black when I customed him. I didnt see a problem. Honestly when I did my 2nd run, I kept the default female Hawke cause she was sexy as is. The voice really helped make my decision for me to finally give the female side a go as well. Sexy+Sexy VO=win. They could change it around so you never see default character, but there were far greater issue in the game than that.

[The_11thDoctor]

VampOrchid wrote...

I think we just need to focus on bigger things that make DA a good game...little boo boos like that I'm sure Bioware is already facepalming themselves and doing changes for the next game.

The company isn't racist...they're just trying to make a fun game.

Little boo boos? Wow... so you...want little booties on the females? I havent heard the baby talk of booty in decades... why did you use that to talk here is the bigger question?

[Adanu]

Silfren wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Theres nitpicking, then theres making mountains out of anthills.

This topic is the latter.

Who gets to be the arbiter of what is or is not important?  You?  Why?  Because YOU don't consider this important, nobody else should?

Starting the PC off as white, for ANY reason, is racist.  It's an assumption catering to other assumptions that make white the default.  This assumption IS racist, and there is no reason for it to happen.  

As has been pointed out, Bioware could very easily have avoided the problem while maintaining the opening Exaggerated Narrative, but they chose not to.  I'm guessing it simply did not occur to the development team that anyone would mind.  That, in itself, is another assumption, and one based on belief that white is the default.  Again, this is a racist assumption.  Racism doesn't have to be overt, or violent, to exist.  

The bottom line of all this is that for all the positive steps Bioware has taken toward being inclusive to all its fans and doing a good job of avoiding many of the prejudiced tropes put out by other game companies, it still has a long way to go.  There's a reason why the woman who first recommended Dragon Age to me referred to it on her blog as being "the least sexist game I've ever played, ya'll."  In this, she had an excellent point.  Being the LEAST problematic, and BETTER than other companies, makes the point that it still has plenty of problems that need to be addressed.  This implicit racism that manifests as defaulting the PC to white is one of those problems.

And of course we have someone going "BUT RACISM HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE TOO" which completely disregards the reality of living in a white-dominant culture, which is the very reason why this topic is happening, because it is exactly because of white-dominant culture that Bioware defaulted to a white PC in the first place.  I'm not sure which comment here is my favorite, that one, or the earlier one of "I'm a person of color and I'M NOT OFFENDED!" which of course means that no one else should be bothered either, because They Have Spoken.

Instead of jumping to defend the problem, explain it away, accuse the OP of being racist, and dismissing the problem as no big deal, people here would do themselves a favor to shut up and listen to what the OP and its proponents are trying to say. 

Not quite sure if you're racist yourself or you just love to find offense in everything.

EIther way, this is a non issue. They have to pick something as default, they did it. YOu can play a custom Hawke in game

Move on.

Modifié par Adanu, 09 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Adanu wrote...

They have to pick something as default, they did it.

No, they don't.  There is, in fact, no reason whatsoever to HAVE a "default" protagonist.  They could just as simply set all the option sliders to random values (or have them all be dead middle) and have that be the "default" for people who, say, don't want to be bothered customizing their character.  They could give you character creation and customization options right off the bat.

The only reason they had to have a default was that they insisted on doing that campy little fight sequence before they let you create your character.  It's like saying you "have" to wear an undershirt today because you picked out an itchy sweater.  It is only necessitated by a choice you made earlier--a choice that you could have changed.

I'm all in favor of changing the itchy sweater.  Or let me skip the silly tutorial thing.    SOMETHING.

[HiroVoid]

While not starting you off as the character, having a default character up is useful for those who don't want to go through character creation and just want to go right on in. I did like Origins' multiple defaults though I always make my own.

[HiroVoid]

Silfren wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Theres nitpicking, then theres making mountains out of anthills.

This topic is the latter.

Who gets to be the arbiter of what is or is not important?  You?  Why?  Because YOU don't consider this important, nobody else should?

Starting the PC off as white, for ANY reason, is racist.  It's an assumption catering to other assumptions that make white the default.  This assumption IS racist, and there is no reason for it to happen.  

As has been pointed out, Bioware could very easily have avoided the problem while maintaining the opening Exaggerated Narrative, but they chose not to.  I'm guessing it simply did not occur to the development team that anyone would mind.  That, in itself, is another assumption, and one based on belief that white is the default.  Again, this is a racist assumption.  Racism doesn't have to be overt, or violent, to exist.  

The bottom line of all this is that for all the positive steps Bioware has taken toward being inclusive to all its fans and doing a good job of avoiding many of the prejudiced tropes put out by other game companies, it still has a long way to go.  There's a reason why the woman who first recommended Dragon Age to me referred to it on her blog as being "the least sexist game I've ever played, ya'll."  In this, she had an excellent point.  Being the LEAST problematic, and BETTER than other companies, makes the point that it still has plenty of problems that need to be addressed.  This implicit racism that manifests as defaulting the PC to white is one of those problems.

And of course we have someone going "BUT RACISM HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE TOO" which completely disregards the reality of living in a white-dominant culture, which is the very reason why this topic is happening, because it is exactly because of white-dominant culture that Bioware defaulted to a white PC in the first place.  I'm not sure which comment here is my favorite, that one, or the earlier one of "I'm a person of color and I'M NOT OFFENDED!" which of course means that no one else should be bothered either, because They Have Spoken.

Instead of jumping to defend the problem, explain it away, accuse the OP of being racist, and dismissing the problem as no big deal, people here would do themselves a favor to shut up and listen to what the OP and its proponents are trying to say. 

Start a poll and get at least 1,000 people to sign up agreeing with you on it being racist.  Then, I may be interested in why so many people would see it as an issue.  Right now, I'm only seeing you having a personal problem with it.  You're opinion's perfectly valid if you see it that way though I disagree with it.

Edit: Double post.  My apologies.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 09 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[Adanu]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Adanu wrote...

They have to pick something as default, they did it.

No, they don't.  There is, in fact, no reason whatsoever to HAVE a "default" protagonist.  They could just as simply set all the option sliders to random values (or have them all be dead middle) and have that be the "default" for people who, say, don't want to be bothered customizing their character.  They could give you character creation and customization options right off the bat.

The only reason they had to have a default was that they insisted on doing that campy little fight sequence before they let you create your character.  It's like saying you "have" to wear an undershirt today because you picked out an itchy sweater.  It is only necessitated by a choice you made earlier--a choice that you could have changed.

I'm all in favor of changing the itchy sweater.  Or let me skip the silly tutorial thing.    SOMETHING.

They have to make a default character. They made the character white. Why do they need to make a default? For marketing and for those who don't care about customizing their appearance. I know two people who didn't care to make a Hawke and were glad for the default.

You're making a mountain out of an anthill and making your opinion out to be fact.