138 réponses à ce sujet

[SirEuain]

You know what's really funny? I read that and hear Hackett's voice. "Yo, dawg..."

[InvincibleHero]

SirEuain wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

They are artists and have a vision that's spanned 3 games. Why is that so hard to understand? Now they're expanding the ending for free from listening to all the feedback. They want to end it their way not your way, not my way. And you know what? That's totally fine. In fact, it's even better.
What were you expecting?

The artistic vision spanning three games points in directions entirely opposite what we're seeing in the ending, though. Organics vs. synthetics was part of the story in ME1, reduced to a personal mission in ME2, and shown to be a false dichotomy in ME3 -- why isn't Shepard pointing the last out to the Catalyst?

Assuming that it's Harbinger blasting Shepard near the end, why is he suddenly voiceless? It can't be because they didn't bring Keith back -- they've replaced Mordin's voice actor, too.

I'm fine with not being able to save everyone. I'm fine with the idea of Shepard dying. I'm just at a loss as to why "artistic integrity" involves removing Shepard's spine at the last minute. The only way I can see this improving is if BioWare adopts the indoctrination theory, because otherwise, they have no excuse for having Shepard break character like this.

I don't get why people think temporary peace with geth will last forever. They know it is necessary to survive the reapers to cooperate. They can decide right after that you know what organics are a big threat and we can wipe them all out right now while they are weak. It takes 18 years to grow a new human and significantly less for a new geth. In a meta way peace with the geth would last as long as Bw decides it does not your own personal headcanon or interpretation. 

If BW says organics and synthetics will not have lasting peace in the ME universe then you have to accept that or be unreasonable. They create the universe and lore not you.

[Vaktathi]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

They are artists and have a vision that's spanned 3 games. Why is that so hard to understand? Now they're expanding the ending for free from listening to all the feedback. They want to end it their way not your way, not my way. And you know what? That's totally fine. In fact, it's even better.
What were you expecting?

Something that didn't violate the narrative paradigm, artistic intent, and story buildup of the trilogy up to the last 5 minutes and create a slew of gigantic plotholes that undermines the entire series?

an "extended" end cutscene/epilgue doesn't really address that.

And you know this sight unseen exactly how? Yeah unreasonably dismissing it is the cool thing to do right?

Someone wise had a great saying it is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and leave no doubt. This paraphrase gets the point across.

Why do people want to make themselves look bad? At least wait until you see what comes out for a reasonable informed opinion.

And you apparently didn't get the intent of my post in your haste to wag your finger like an old crone proclaiming your wisdom to nobody. I was talking about what we were expecting out of the ending, and it's fairly incomprehensible how this ending DLC will fix those issues through extended cutscenes, especially without *changing* the ending as they said they aren't doing.

[DoctorEss]

Didn't Uwe Boll once wax about his "artistic integrity"? Yeahhhhh.

[KayB1991]

macrocarl wrote...

KayB1991 wrote...

macrocarl wrote...


...What were you expecting?

well more or less something along the lines of the top picture



as you can see, the top picture depcits differing end points based on choices you can make from the previous games, which would lead to differing outcomes. The bottom is an indication of what really occurs, where despite all of the choices you make they are thrown out of the window in favor of palette swap explosions. I was expecting and hoping for the first one only to get stuck with the second 

Nice charts. But even if you think that all the choices didn't matter a bit in the end, there's 16 variations. And even if you say 'Well those 16 aren't varied enough' (which is legit) you still can't ignore there are 3.

I will concede that point to you, there are 3 but they do end up leading to the same overall outcomes such as something occuring with the reapers and something major happening with the galaxy which I will not elaborate on due to spoilers. Still It think the endings should have had some big differences, like one where the reapers win, that would have been pretty awesome,very depressing and emotional but awesome.

[palker]

You already have bought as i did and as did milions of people and the truth is they do not give a damn disliking the ending. I cannot do anything to make them change it only thing I can do is not to buy anything they will release from this point forward being it ME3 DLC or new game, not interested. I regret buyng ME3 and i am bitterly disappointed how the game turned out to be had i known that they were blatantly lying with they advertisment of unique endings depending on your choices, I would put the money invested in it towards computer upgrade fund or i would donate more to Wasteland 2 kickstarter.
I really was looking forward to see the last part of the trilogy and then at somepoint in future to play the whole 3 games with all DLCs in one go but now it all seems kind of pointless.
I completed 1 playthrough and started anotherone but i cannot get myself to finish it or even play singleplayer for over a week because well what would be the point again the same 3colored nonsense ending i do not need to see that.
Also artistic integrity my ass they have implemented loads of stuff to cater their fans even useless nonse like ability to have sex with just any character you like. They always listened and now sudddenly they are all artist with vision that we cannot understand or whatever.

[SirEuain]

I don't get why people think temporary peace with geth will last forever. They know it is necessary to survive the reapers to cooperate. They can decide right after that you know what organics are a big threat and we can wipe them all out right now while they are weak. It takes 18 years to grow a new human and significantly less for a new geth. In a meta way peace with the geth would last as long as Bw decides it does not your own personal headcanon or interpretation. 

If BW says organics and synthetics will not have lasting peace in the ME universe then you have to accept that or be unreasonable. They create the universe and lore not you.

It's not my personal interpretation that Legion stood with me and sacrificed itself. It's not my interpretation that the geth preserved the homeworld, and would've let the quarians be if the quarians had done the same for them. It's not my interpretation that the majority of the geth had no quarrel with anyone else.

That's canon, by BioWare.

If the peace isn't permanent, fine. It makes sense that it wouldn't necessarily be. It's ludicrous to not even acknowledge it in the final minutes, however, and doubly so when, again, it wasn't a major theme for most of the trilogy, but becomes the primary point now for some reason.

[InvincibleHero]

Vaktathi wrote...

And you apparently didn't get the intent of my post in your haste to wag your finger like an old crone proclaiming your wisdom to nobody. I was talking about what we were expecting out of the ending, and it's fairly incomprehensible how this ending DLC will fix those issues through extended cutscenes, especially without *changing* the ending as they said they aren't doing.

How is your negative speculation grounded in anything concrete? You have nothing to base it on other than anger perhaps. There is no wisdom in that.

BW can easily fix the supposed plot holes that supposed fans come up with because they have created the whole universe. You may not accept their exposition but they have the authority and you don't. You can rail as much as you want and it does not change that fact.

[InvincibleHero]

SirEuain wrote...

It's not my personal interpretation that Legion stood with me and sacrificed itself. It's not my interpretation that the geth preserved the homeworld, and would've let the quarians be if the quarians had done the same for them. It's not my interpretation that the majority of the geth had no quarrel with anyone else.

That's canon, by BioWare.

If the peace isn't permanent, fine. It makes sense that it wouldn't necessarily be. It's ludicrous to not even acknowledge it in the final minutes, however, and doubly so when, again, it wasn't a major theme for most of the trilogy, but becomes the primary point now for some reason.

Legion is one unit that can create his own consensus based on circumstances.

Not going to go into the morning war argument; suffice to say geth are more to blame they overreacted to an extreme that only makes sense in machine logic. They destroyed rannoch and not the quarians as per Legion in ME2. They used weapons of mass destruction biologicals and explosive not the quarians. That's enough for me.
 
What a peace of days of necessity vs. millions of years of proven conflict deserves mentioning at the end?

[JBONE27]

macrocarl wrote...

They are artists and have a vision that's spanned 3 games. Why is that so hard to understand? Now they're expanding the ending for free from listening to all the feedback. They want to end it their way not your way, not my way. And you know what? That's totally fine. In fact, it's even better.
What were you expecting?

An ending that makes sense.  An ending that makes me feel something because of the ending itself, and not because I felt cheated by the ending.  An ending that fit in with the narrative.  The radically divergent ending that they said were going to be in it.

[laudable11]

crimsontotem wrote...

Bioware is a group of bunch of liars.

Casey Hudson is a liar
Mac Walters is a goddamn liar

i lost hope for this company

I have a little hope left.

Hopefully BioWare can look at a game like Skyrim and understand that a hardcore rpg CAN make big bucks in todays market.

[TheJiveDJ]

Plotholes are opinion? How about the fact that the star child could've opened the citadel himself at the end of ME1. SO WHAT WAS THE POINT OF SOVEREIGN AND SAREN? What was the point of that entire game? This is a massive series breaking plothole; fact not opinion.

[ArthurBDD]

Vaktathi wrote...

Personally, I think for the sake of it's artistic integrity the game *MUST* be changed. The game massively violates its narrative paradigm and story buildup with the ending, it *FEELS* like the end was written by a different team for a different game, and for that reason it should be changed.

This.

In particular, retaining the ending might respect the artistic integrity of those responsible for the ending, but the plot holes and contradictions it opens up shows supreme disrespect for the artistic integrty of what came before, particularly the whole ME1 thing. (For instance, the whole "Why do you need Sovereign? Why not just leave the Starchild AI on the Citadel monitoring things?" point.)

[JBONE27]

macrocarl wrote...

KayB1991 wrote...

macrocarl wrote...


...What were you expecting?

well more or less something along the lines of the top picture



as you can see, the top picture depcits differing end points based on choices you can make from the previous games, which would lead to differing outcomes. The bottom is an indication of what really occurs, where despite all of the choices you make they are thrown out of the window in favor of palette swap explosions. I was expecting and hoping for the first one only to get stuck with the second 

Nice charts. But even if you think that all the choices didn't matter a bit in the end, there's 16 variations. And even if you say 'Well those 16 aren't varied enough' (which is legit) you still can't ignore there are 3.

Are there really 16 varriations?
1. The Earth is destroyed.
2. Shepard dies with red beam cutscene.
3. Shepard dies with blue beam cutscene.
4. Shepard dies with green beam cutscene.
5.  Shepard lives with red beam cutscene.

I only count 5, and only one of them is radically different.  Plus, they only have to do with 2 things; your EMS and the final decision.

Modifié par JBONE27, 05 avril 2012 - 05:11 .

[SirEuain]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Legion is one unit that can create his own consensus based on circumstances.

Not going to go into the morning war argument; suffice to say geth are more to blame they overreacted to an extreme that only makes sense in machine logic. They destroyed rannoch and not the quarians as per Legion in ME2. They used weapons of mass destruction biologicals and explosive not the quarians. That's enough for me.
 
What a peace of days of necessity vs. millions of years of proven conflict deserves mentioning at the end?

Yes. One of the major themes of the series was making allies of enemies, and this is especially true in ME3 -- Victus himself points out that however risky peace with the krogan might be, the resulotion of the First Contact War shows it's worth trying. This happens with the geth, the rachni, the batarians, former Cerberus, etc. Sacrifices do have to happen for this, and it doesn't always pan out in the long run -- but it works often enough that it's at least something worth mentioning.

[formshifter]

The problem isn't that it's like that, @ Dead Parrot.
The issue is:
It's more like each game doesn't really change after each one. I could get that 2 didn't have much resonance with 1 (they were very different storylines), but a lot of decisions from 1 don't affect 3 (and I mean the big ones). The same applies to 2.

Looking at the 4 big choices and storylines:
- Rachni: regardless of whether you save them or kill them you will fight the Rachni in 3.
- Feros: if you save the colony you hear about a unit of humans fighting like a bunch of Asari commandos lead by the Asari (can't remember the name). If not. . . you don't, I guess?
- Virmire: kill wrex and his model is painted in a different pallet. The character behaves in an entirely different manner to his established personality and beliefs. Save him, and Wrex acts like he has shown he wants in 2 (and mentioned wanting in 1).
- Council: some different dialog in 2, no change in 3.

So the entire first game's choices are resolved as follows:
2 no changes
1 pallet swap in a mission
an e-mail that has no bearing on the game

I could do the same for 2 later. The point is, Mass Effect 3 was promised to be a different game depending on our choice,s and have an ending that reflected this. The reality was that we had one game where our choices didn't really matter, and endings that contradicted what the reps had said.

My hope is that the ending DLC fixes the ends and delivers as promised. My thoughts on that:
http://social.biowar.../index/11033832

Just my 2 cents

[InvincibleHero]

ArthurBDD wrote...

This.

In particular, retaining the ending might respect the artistic integrity of those responsible for the ending, but the plot holes and contradictions it opens up shows supreme disrespect for the artistic integrty of what came before, particularly the whole ME1 thing. (For instance, the whole "Why do you need Sovereign? Why not just leave the Starchild AI on the Citadel monitoring things?" point.)

Easily explained that he was blocked by the Protheans did prior to ME1 in the last cycle. Perhaps the keepers were able to repair the sabotage and he is back. He probably did trigger the reapings in the past by observing from the citadel. I am not BW though so this is just speculation I came up with on the spot.

[Malice1979]

crimsontotem wrote...

Bioware is a group of bunch of liars.

Casey Hudson is a liar
Mac Walters is a goddamn liar

This.

If they simply fessed up before hand and admited that for whatever reason they couldn't impliment the ending(s) they hyped up in previous interviews then it wouldn't be so bad but the fact is they didn't and even now they don't have the commen decency to address what they previously said.

[JBONE27]

InvincibleHero wrote...

SirEuain wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

They are artists and have a vision that's spanned 3 games. Why is that so hard to understand? Now they're expanding the ending for free from listening to all the feedback. They want to end it their way not your way, not my way. And you know what? That's totally fine. In fact, it's even better.
What were you expecting?

The artistic vision spanning three games points in directions entirely opposite what we're seeing in the ending, though. Organics vs. synthetics was part of the story in ME1, reduced to a personal mission in ME2, and shown to be a false dichotomy in ME3 -- why isn't Shepard pointing the last out to the Catalyst?

Assuming that it's Harbinger blasting Shepard near the end, why is he suddenly voiceless? It can't be because they didn't bring Keith back -- they've replaced Mordin's voice actor, too.

I'm fine with not being able to save everyone. I'm fine with the idea of Shepard dying. I'm just at a loss as to why "artistic integrity" involves removing Shepard's spine at the last minute. The only way I can see this improving is if BioWare adopts the indoctrination theory, because otherwise, they have no excuse for having Shepard break character like this.

I don't get why people think temporary peace with geth will last forever. They know it is necessary to survive the reapers to cooperate. They can decide right after that you know what organics are a big threat and we can wipe them all out right now while they are weak. It takes 18 years to grow a new human and significantly less for a new geth. In a meta way peace with the geth would last as long as Bw decides it does not your own personal headcanon or interpretation. 

If BW says organics and synthetics will not have lasting peace in the ME universe then you have to accept that or be unreasonable. They create the universe and lore not you.

We've seen that the geth are never the aggressors.  Every time the quarians got beaten by the geth, the quarians were the ones who attacked.  There is also the fact (well in universe fact), that the geth never persued the quarians.  It seems to me that if the peace doesn't last between the quarians and the geth, then it will be the quarians fault.

[Ashilana]

Fuzzfro wrote...

 What's with the excuse of Artistic integrity? I'm absolutely sick or hearing it and sick of Bioware hiding behind it and using it to defend there unsatisfactory ending. The Fans, the people who buy the games don't give a **** about this so called "Artistic integrity" and just want a proper ending, not clarifcation but a large dlc that fixes the vast amount of problems with the ending.

Just because it can be considered art it does not mean it can't be changed, forget about artistic integrity bioware should be more concerned on what the fans want.

They are trying to portray their company as the victim in this whole debacle.  If the public image of the company was deceit and fleecing of paying customers through games cut into DLCs... then they might lose money or confidence of their stockholders.

It is PR, plain and simple.

[frag971]

Artistic Integrity.

[Grey21]

Vaktathi wrote...

Personally, I think for the sake of it's artistic integrity the game *MUST* be changed. The game massively violates its narrative paradigm and story buildup with the ending, it *FEELS* like the end was written by a different team for a different game, and for that reason it should be changed.

Alas it looks like they're going to stick on their current endings, so we have what we have, the Mass Effect universe will suffer greatly for it, and what would have been the defining SciFi story of our generation will fail in its moment of triumph.

This is so true. With the indoctrination concept as interval right before a 'true' ending, the Mass Effect trilogy could have gone down in history as the definitive sci-fi story of the early 2000's. It could have been reknowned for offering an interactive experience that provided tribute to the sci-fi masterpieces that came before it.

Of course this whole controversy would have already diminished its legeacy but there was still room to fix it. Now the Mass Effect trilogy will go down as sci-fi trash just like The Matrix trilogy. People will say 'it had some good ideas in the beginning, but it ended with mindless action that tried to act smart, but I doubt even the creators knew what was going on at the end'.

[Dead Parrot]

Malice1979 wrote...

crimsontotem wrote...

Bioware is a group of bunch of liars.

Casey Hudson is a liar
Mac Walters is a goddamn liar

This.

If they simply fessed up before hand and admited that for whatever reason they couldn't impliment the ending(s) they hyped up in previous interviews then it wouldn't be so bad but the fact is they didn't and even now they don't have the commen decency to address what they previously said.

Modifié par Dead Parrot, 05 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[DashRunner92]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Benny8484 wrote...

They are using it as a scapegoat.  What they are really saying is "Theres no revenue generated from additional content & we would have to re-hire voice actors etc"

There is no revenue generated from creating and releasing free DLC either, seriously take what you can get, I would have much rathed Bioware just give you guys the finger and say "it is our game and we will decide how it ends" as it is pretty clear that you will never be satisfied with whatever they do.

Of course they still gain revenue. Whether it's through keeping fans from returning their copies of ME3 or restoring confidence in people who were considering purchasing the game. You are thinking too much in the short-term effects. 

Modifié par DashRunner92, 05 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[The Razman]

"Artistic integrity" means that you don't create your works for other people. You can sell them, sure ... but for anything to have artistic integrity, it has to come from you and your exploration of ideas and stories, and not from your desire to please a majority or sell more of the product or anything. Example: Britney Spears has no artistic integrity because her music exists merely to please the mainstream, while Johnny Cash has artistic integrity because he created music because that's what he loved doing.

If Bioware changed their ending, they'd be compromising their artistic integrity by virtue of altering the nature of their story to fit what the mainstream want, rather than letting it stand as the story they wanted to tell and letting it be judged upon that standard. I don't support the destruction of artistic integrity for any reason.