138 réponses à ce sujet

[BerzerkGene]

Fuzzfro wrote...

 What's with the excuse of Artistic integrity? I'm absolutely sick or hearing it and sick of Bioware hiding behind it and using it to defend there unsatisfactory ending. The Fans, the people who buy the games don't give a **** about this so called "Artistic integrity" and just want a proper ending, not clarifcation but a large dlc that fixes the vast amount of problems with the ending.

Just because it can be considered art it does not mean it can't be changed, forget about artistic integrity bioware should be more concerned on what the fans want.

Fuzz my man, you are correct. It's on almost every damn review and article. Gets tiring right? Personally after the Diabolous Ex Machina shows up, i think artistic integrity was sacrificed for a hasty ending.

I don't even see how anyone could defend that ending after the playing from me1 or just me3 itself.
Theres artistic integrity, and then theres desperately trying to defend your actions because you were caught stuffing up.

We DO want a proper ending, problem is that we have no idea what they happen to be doing. They should take a couple of dissatisfied people, active ones on here, consult with them, preferably the more articulate and calmly angry ones. Basically beta test the endings, i would volunteer and do it for free personally.

Hold the line men! Hold the line!

[AkiKishi]

Playing the "art" card was a big mistake since it locks you into a course of action.

[BerzerkGene]

Dead Parrot wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

@ Dead Parrot: Come on. That's silly (still) Funny, but totally inaccurate.

How is it inaccurate?

It's not.
The resident Diabolous Ex Machina thrives on circular logic.

[JBONE27]

The Razman wrote...

"Artistic integrity" means that you don't create your works for other people. You can sell them, sure ... but for anything to have artistic integrity, it has to come from you and your exploration of ideas and stories, and not from your desire to please a majority or sell more of the product or anything. Example: Britney Spears has no artistic integrity because her music exists merely to please the mainstream, while Johnny Cash has artistic integrity because he created music because that's what he loved doing.

If Bioware changed their ending, they'd be compromising their artistic integrity by virtue of altering the nature of their story to fit what the mainstream want, rather than letting it stand as the story they wanted to tell and letting it be judged upon that standard. I don't support the destruction of artistic integrity for any reason.

It fails as an artistic work because of the ending.  Art is supposed to make you feel because of what it is, and the majority of the audience felt nothing because of what the ending was.  They felt angry because the ending was so different than  the rest of the game.  They felt angry because Bioware spokes-people said that their choices would make a difference when they didn't.  The ending was an emotionless trudge though psduo-philosophical nonsense that left the vast majority of the audience feeling nothing.  That is why it fails as a work of art.

[loudent3]

Benny8484 wrote...

They are using it as a scapegoat.  What they are really saying is "Theres no revenue generated from additional content & we would have to re-hire voice actors etc"

The are, apparantly, recording new lines of dialogue for the DLC

[killnoob]

games like DA:O is art...but sadly, the ending of ME3 is just writer's own ego

[abaris]

Merwanor wrote...

The moment they start releasing photoshoped stock photos as their own creation, they lost their Artistic Integrity. If it where not for such lazy shortcuts I would maybe agree with their defence based on artistic vision.

If you want to call it art, the one and only art coming into play is literature or storytelling. And that aspect is violating about a dozen principles that any good story must have. The deus ex is only scratching the surface of what shouldn't happen with any storyline, but it speaks volumes about running out of ideas and inspiration.

Modifié par abaris, 05 avril 2012 - 06:10 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Benny8484 wrote...

They are using it as a scapegoat.  What they are really saying is "Theres no revenue generated from additional content & we would have to re-hire voice actors etc"

There is no revenue generated from creating and releasing free DLC either, seriously take what you can get, I would have much rathed Bioware just give you guys the finger and say "it is our game and we will decide how it ends" as it is pretty clear that you will never be satisfied with whatever they do.

then ME3 wont be the last bioware game that fails as misserably.

how much is ME3 worth right now, $17 bucks or something?

get real, the ending ruined more then just the ME series. and time will tell, most definately.

[abaris]

The Spamming Troll wrote...


how much is ME3 worth right now, $17 bucks or something?

17 quids, which is a bit more but not that much more.

[BadMangos]

Wikipedia.
Integrity[/b] is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness oraccuracy of one's actions. 

they should change the ending as it breaches the integrity of the game as from the quote  explaining what integrity is the ending wasnt consistent with the actual storyline and the outcome of the choices was basically the same with couple of seconds added and different colours of textures

[Khayness]

It's not art if you have to sacrifice your vision due to deadlines and budget.

Think whatever you want about Peter Molyneux, but the guy finished Dungeon Keeper from his own pocket after EA pulled the plug on it. That's true artistic integrity.

[NickelToe]

Sad day. Perfect delaying tactic. Bioware pretty much is trying to delay things so people calm down and they can try to salvage their DLC launch schedule while people lose interest in it. The faithful of this religion will hand over cash in stacks.

Best way to save the anger for later at the worst but most likely who will care in 3 or 4 months the product advertisement is a lie now, but Artistic Integrity is their blanket. They can maintain their limited understand of Artistic Integrity by keep this joke of an ending and creating the other options for ending that were promised. Keep the current ending for when you rush to the end unreasonably and get an unreasonable ending. Play to the end completing every nook and cranny and you can skip the Starchild that kills you to protect you from being killed.

[abaris]

Khayness wrote...

That's true artistic integrity.

Most of all it's dedication. I give him that, since he was always the Peter Pan of the gaming business. With a too big mouth, but in his case I never got the impression he was bending the truth intentionally.

[Uzzy]

To be fair, Bioware have always stuck up for the artistic integrity of their work. I recall the whole fan reaction to the novel, Mass Effect: Deception, and how despite the numerous flaws and overwhelming negative response to the book, Bioware stuck to their guns and defended the artistic integrity of the work. William C. Dietz is an artist, don't you know.

To be fair though, that's a novel. Changing that is a lot harder then changing a video game. Can't just send out DLC and patches for a novel!

[Zhuinden]

Vaktathi wrote...

it *FEELS* like the end was written by a different team for a different game, and for that reason it should be changed.
 

Because it was. Without the input of the writer team, Casey and Mac just jammed it together.
Yay...?

[BadMangos]

abaris wrote...

Khayness wrote...

That's true artistic integrity.

Most of all it's dedication. I give him that, since he was always the Peter Pan of the gaming business. With a too big mouth, but in his case I never got the impression he was bending the truth intentionally.

agreed

[DiasExMachina]

Well, Mass Effect 3 won't be revised, only clarified. This was no victory. The mob got distracted by bread and circuses. I am just tired of the ego of these so called "artists" that disregard narrative cohesion to toss in a gotcha ending and then hide behind the shield of integrity. Your ending was badly written, badly presented, and ethically bankrupt. You can't "clarify" that. Bioware can keep their integrity...I'll keep my money.

[macrocarl]

I think the point I was trying to make but got side tracked (and then went to eat lunch, so now I'm sleepy) is, that while the endings may or may not have made sense enough, may or may not have been varied enough etc. doesn't really effect their status as artists.
And maybe that's not what is being talked about intentionally, but the stuff I've seen on ol' BSN kind of comes off as 'since the ending wasn't what I wanted, they are not artists. Furthermore, how can it be art if they're making money.' And also stuff like 'EA has no soul, the endings were rushed so they could make money and trick fans into thinking they were going to get something that they didn't and are trying to cover it up by saying they have integrity.' All of that just seems really contradictory to me at best, and incredibly misinformed as to what constitutes being an 'artist' can be about.
I hope that makes sense.

[fwc577]

InvincibleHero wrote...

ArthurBDD wrote...

This.

In particular, retaining the ending might respect the artistic integrity of those responsible for the ending, but the plot holes and contradictions it opens up shows supreme disrespect for the artistic integrty of what came before, particularly the whole ME1 thing. (For instance, the whole "Why do you need Sovereign? Why not just leave the Starchild AI on the Citadel monitoring things?" point.)

Easily explained that he was blocked by the Protheans did prior to ME1 in the last cycle. Perhaps the keepers were able to repair the sabotage and he is back. He probably did trigger the reapings in the past by observing from the citadel. I am not BW though so this is just speculation I came up with on the spot.

Lol, easily explained by someone who ran through the game and didn't bother to take the time to read and listen to conversations.

Citadel was the first place taken and swarmed by the Reapers, it was the heart of the Prothean empire and proved to be their downfall becuase it cutoff parts of the empire from each other when it was lost.  Protheans were just coming to understand mass relay technology when their empire was attacked.  No way they figure out some god reaper child in the citadel was the key to the Reaper invasion and managed to sabotage it.

If bioware tried to explain it in this matter it would be a slap in the face to those who were into the story and would be a poor retcon.

[abaris]

macrocarl wrote...

I think the point I was trying to make but got side tracked (and then went to eat lunch, so now I'm sleepy) is, that while the endings may or may not have made sense enough, may or may not have been varied enough etc. doesn't really effect their status as artists.

So what exactly is artistic or visionary about it?

At best it's a Kubrick ripoff, at worst it assembled the most used and abused cliches there are in storytelling and speaks about losing ideas and inspiration by introducing a deus ex.

[ArthurBDD]

The thing is, I get where they are coming from with the talk about artistic integrity. I can see a definite place in the videogame realm for the sort of game which puts a priority on being loved by a few people who really get where the devs are artistically coming from than the sort of game which is just liked by many.

But for two out of three games in the trilogy, Bioware has been happy to go for the "liked by many" option. ME1 and ME2, tonally, are more or less in keeping with the grittier sort of SF Hollywood blockbuster than the sort of "art above all else" game you get.

In addition to this: it is no good holding onto your artistic integrity if you lose your artistic credibility. There was a time when I - and, I think, most of the people who dislike the endings - would have implicitly trusted BioWare to produce a great CRPG experience. In the wake of DA2 and ME3 I think the number of people who have that trust in BioWare has plummeted. Has it shrunk to zero? No, of course not, and I'm pleased some people are happy with the situation. But has it shrunk dramatically? I can't see how you can say otherwise.

[Ghost-621]

Bocks wrote...

Ignore it, it's just a buzzword for them not wanting to admit that they're absolutely incompetent.

This. 

BioWare knows that their reputation has been flushed down the toilet (by their own doing), and they're clawing at any pseudo-justification they can as to why their level of incompetence is still ok.

Modifié par Ghost-621, 05 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

Artistic integrity is such a cop out when they include a feature like multiplayer all of a sudden, or when they decide that a series that started out as based on RPG stats determining combat success would work better as a shooter game, due to wanting to attract the CoD crowd.

BioWare wants it both ways.  They cry artistic integrity when it comes to people complaining about the ending, but where was their artistic integrity when they added MP for no other reason than to cater to the MP crowd?  Or when they added Jessica Chobot as nothing more than a gimmick to the game (she doesn't add a damn thing to the story)?  Or when they decided that they'd go from making RPGs to making shooter action games because they want the "CoD" crowd?

[macrocarl]

abaris wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

I think the point I was trying to make but got side tracked (and then went to eat lunch, so now I'm sleepy) is, that while the endings may or may not have made sense enough, may or may not have been varied enough etc. doesn't really effect their status as artists.

So what exactly is artistic or visionary about it?

At best it's a Kubrick ripoff, at worst it assembled the most used and abused cliches there are in storytelling and speaks about losing ideas and inspiration by introducing a deus ex.

At best it's a Kubrick ripoff appropriation, at worst it can be perceived as abusing cliches. - This is my opinion, the same way you have yours.
If you look at all 3 games as a enjoyable romp through sci-fi movies you can see the inspired blending of everything the creators love in the genre, including Kubric -That's artistic. That's what's happening right now in contemporary art in every single medium. I know this because I study this.
Also, deus ex machina: There really is a god poppin' out of the machine, so that's kind of funny. But anyway, there's also the Indoc Theory which there's LOTS of evidence for in all 3 games which explains the inconsistancy in how the story shifts from hard action sci-fi to a dream like ending............. Shep may be being manipulated.
But!
Even if you don't believe in IT, can we at least agree to wait until we see the final clips  that BW's adding? It's like everyone on BSN got automatically super mad.

[Karimloo]

"We're lazy and arrogant"

Translated in Google Translate. True story.