43 réponses à ce sujet

[Vae_Victis]

So, indomitable is fun and all, but it is hardly the 2H trump card people are making it out to be.

Especially since DW gets twice as many rune spots as 2-H giving you the ability to easily max out physical resist and then some.

2-H is a bosskiller spec in a game where true bosses are very few and far between while packs of white enemies are around every corner.

[Id of Ith]

nuculerman wrote...
I just beat Flemeth on Nightmare with my DW warrior, Wynne and Lelianna at level 13.  No fourth person.  And all Flemeth does is knock back.  My DW warrior was knocked back every other attack.  Yet with regeneration, heroic offense, heroic defense and lifeward, it really didn't matter.  The battle took 5ish minutes.  

So, indomitable is fun and all, but it is hardly the 2H trump card people are making it out to be.  Even fighting the biggest "knock back" boss in the game my DW trio'ed Flemeth on nightmare.  He could have duo'ed Flemeth if I had brought more healing pots.  I only went through 4 or 5 as it was.  If I had brought 10, he and Wynne could have easily taken Flemeth on nightmare.  It just would have taken 12 to 15 minutes.  I'd like to see a 2H do that, even with indomitable.

DW warrior is much easier to play.  True statement.  But that doesn't make 2H better if you're a skilled player.  DA:O is terrible at rewarding skilled players.  If you're a skilled player and you get the animation time down to a science, your 2H warrior would still wipe against a DW warrior.  People might not think DW is fun, but it IS powerful.  It's a lot like BM/AW.  Just run into the middle of a battle, put up your 5 sustained abilities, go have dinner, come back, everything is dead.

Since the question was "DW or 2H for DPS warrior using heavy/massive armor?" the answer is obviously DW.  DW doesn't need stamina.  You can put every single stat into Str and Dex.  Stop Dex at 36 and you'll finish with 55ish Str.  If you don't put points into willpower on a 2H and he's wearing something like Juggernaut with a 45% fatigue rating, you're in big trouble.  A 2H needs his abilities, and thus his stamina.  If you download a stamina potion mod, then MAYBE you could have an argument that 2H is better than DW late in the game.  But that's still a huge maybe.

A 2H needs less WIL than a DW needs DEX, so I don't think it's particularly a problem. I don't suspect a lot of 2H DPS warriors would be wearing Juggernaut anyway.

That is not to say DW does not outdamage 2H in this game - it does, partly because there are a lot of stupid design decisions in regards to modals, active abilities and enchantment in general. The difference though is not as pronounced as people make it out to be - Indomitable definitely is that much of an advantage, particularly in a lot of the encounters in this game that are actually "difficult", because even with lower auto-attack damage they spend more time actually on the target rather than picking themselves up. Late game there are enough forms of stamina regeneration that there are no encounters where you will spend a significant portion of any combat only performing auto-attack. DW is absolutely the winner for most of the combat in this game, because it essentially requires no active abilities and kills hordes significantly faster. Against other targets, it's hard to say it kills faster when there is so much KD/stun downtime.

All that aside, I don't get why people bring up X vs X, as if an imaginary duel would somehow prove any worth of the character in the scope of the game itself. Players have such a small health pool compared to monsters in this game I suspect a lot of melee would die to 2H just cycling KDs and killing you with auto-attack. It's not a particularly compelling strategy on Nightmare, though.

[Nooneyouknow13]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

brelrande wrote...

you've got my attention please elaberate

Knight-commander's plate armor gives you 40% spell resistance. Add to this your already quite formidable physical resistance as a warrior and your mental resistance bonus as a templar and if it has a resistance check, chances are you'll save and ignore the effect.

Actually, I stack 100% spell resist. Knight Commander's Plate for 40%, the Spellward from Bodahn for another 30%, then a Grandmaster Dweomer Rune and 2 Master Dweomer runes for 26% in my main hand, and Key to the City for the last 4% to finish it off.  If spell resist is capped at less than 100% I've seen no idnication of it at all.  Add to that the ability to hit berserk, then charge into a group with Dual Weapon Sweep, Whirlwind, Holy Smite, and a couple of grenades to finish off any survivors, and Nightmare becomes a complete joke.

[Love-Buzz]

If you want the best DPS out of your tank, make a DW warrior.  If you want the best DPS, make a DW rogue.  If you want the best tank, make a sword/shield warrior.  2H is for fun and can be good if played really well, but it's not great.

nuculerman wrote...
Since the question was "DW or 2H for DPS warrior using heavy/massive armor?" the answer is obviously DW.  DW doesn't need stamina.  You can put every single stat into Str and Dex.  Stop Dex at 36 and you'll finish with 55ish Str.  If you don't put points into willpower on a 2H and he's wearing something like Juggernaut with a 45% fatigue rating, you're in big trouble.  A 2H needs his abilities, and thus his stamina.  If you download a stamina potion mod, then MAYBE you could have an argument that 2H is better than DW late in the game.  But that's still a huge maybe.

Chasind Great Maul + Warden Commanders set + Executioner's Helm = +150 stamina.  You can get away with base willpower as long as you don't activate every sustain before using any skills.    Still not better though.

I laugh a little at these topics though, cuz DW rogue > DW warrior about as much as DW warrior > 2H warrior.  Warriors are good for pure tanking or nothing in this game (except having fun!).

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 04 décembre 2009 - 08:50 .

[DKJaigen]

I laugh a little at these topics though, cuz DW rogue > DW warrior about as much as DW warrior > 2H warrior.  Warriors are good for pure tanking or nothing in this game (except having fun!).

i havent played a rogue yet but it seems  that the higher base damage + zerker/reaver spec allowes for more overall damage with less micro problems

[Love-Buzz]

DKJaigen wrote...

I laugh a little at these topics though, cuz DW rogue > DW warrior about as much as DW warrior > 2H warrior.  Warriors are good for pure tanking or nothing in this game (except having fun!).

i havent played a rogue yet but it seems  that the higher base damage + zerker/reaver spec allowes for more overall damage with less micro problems

Autobackstabs against CC'd targets, 10 sec aggro reset of Master Stealth, and Taunt on your tank gets around any micro problems.  A rogue with high dex + cunning + daggers has huge attack speed (daggers + momentum), good base dmg (tainted blade + lethality are cunning based), extreme backstab dmg (exploit weakness is cunning based), very high armor penetration (thx to cunning again), and very good attack rating (especially if u spec duelist 2nd).  Combine that with Mark of Death, and u rape a single target faster than any class in the game (I was hitting the generals on nightmare for 120ish mainhand, 100ish offhand @ momentum + dagger speed, not counting rune dmg, with just MoD debuff).

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:17 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

With massive armour I'd go DW because 2H is so heavy on Stamina.

2Hers are not weak or ineffective, but it is very easy to build a bad one, and even a well-constructed 2Her needs to be managed constantly.

[Sharog]

Love-Buzz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

I laugh a little at these topics though, cuz DW rogue > DW warrior about as much as DW warrior > 2H warrior.  Warriors are good for pure tanking or nothing in this game (except having fun!).

i havent played a rogue yet but it seems  that the higher base damage + zerker/reaver spec allowes for more overall damage with less micro problems

Autobackstabs against CC'd targets, 10 sec aggro reset of Master Stealth, and Taunt on your tank gets around any micro problems.  A rogue with high dex + cunning + daggers has huge attack speed (daggers + momentum), good base dmg (tainted blade + lethality are cunning based), extreme backstab dmg (exploit weakness is cunning based), very high armor penetration (thx to cunning again), and very good attack rating (especially if u spec duelist 2nd).  Combine that with Mark of Death, and u rape a single target faster than any class in the game (I was hitting the generals on nightmare for 120ish mainhand, 100ish offhand @ momentum + dagger speed, not counting rune dmg, with just MoD debuff).

you do be surprized how much down time it actually is to get in to flanking position on every single mob u hit, casting mod on anything other than orange mob is waste of time when u take them down in 3 hit anyway. sure on a stationary target that u can backstab constantly dw rogue is by far the best, how ever when it comes to sustained dps in dungeon type of mob packs dw war simply outdps by over 20% on average due to the random agro/runaway from melee enemy scripts. nto to mention quite some mobs cant be bs'ed unless u stun it first. the 2 aoe abilities a dw rogue shares with the dw warrior also does significantly less dmg, and it counts towards roughly 50% of the total dmg in majority of the trash pulls.

[congokurtz]

Sharog wrote...

Love-Buzz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

I laugh a little at these topics though, cuz DW rogue > DW warrior about as much as DW warrior > 2H warrior.  Warriors are good for pure tanking or nothing in this game (except having fun!).

i havent played a rogue yet but it seems  that the higher base damage + zerker/reaver spec allowes for more overall damage with less micro problems

Autobackstabs against CC'd targets, 10 sec aggro reset of Master Stealth, and Taunt on your tank gets around any micro problems.  A rogue with high dex + cunning + daggers has huge attack speed (daggers + momentum), good base dmg (tainted blade + lethality are cunning based), extreme backstab dmg (exploit weakness is cunning based), very high armor penetration (thx to cunning again), and very good attack rating (especially if u spec duelist 2nd).  Combine that with Mark of Death, and u rape a single target faster than any class in the game (I was hitting the generals on nightmare for 120ish mainhand, 100ish offhand @ momentum + dagger speed, not counting rune dmg, with just MoD debuff).

you do be surprized how much down time it actually is to get in to flanking position on every single mob u hit, casting mod on anything other than orange mob is waste of time when u take them down in 3 hit anyway. sure on a stationary target that u can backstab constantly dw rogue is by far the best, how ever when it comes to sustained dps in dungeon type of mob packs dw war simply outdps by over 20% on average due to the random agro/runaway from melee enemy scripts. nto to mention quite some mobs cant be bs'ed unless u stun it first. the 2 aoe abilities a dw rogue shares with the dw warrior also does significantly less dmg, and it counts towards roughly 50% of the total dmg in majority of the trash pulls.

These are all excellent points.  While I very much appreciate much of the theorycrafting that goes on with regard to dps, it doesn't take into account many of the factors mentioned here.  If you enjoy playing a rogue go for it!  I really enjoyed my play through as a dagger/dagger cunning rouge, you will use diffrent party members and you get the cool side quest line with Slim the Fence.  But just because the math suggests that on a single target that can be backstabbed a rogue will be the clear dps leader dosen't mean it works out that way in the game. Keep in mind any enemy who has a shield may not be able to be backstabbed such as revenants.  Anyone who has played through as a DW warrior can attest to how much you use whirlwind and dualweapon sweep and absolutley destroy large groups of enimies.

Modifié par congokurtz, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[Hizoka003]

nuculerman wrote...

yeah. I'm a DW warrior and only level 12 and my str is already 40. So the idea that only 2H can wear the best armor is retarded. I'll be level 13 with 36 dex and 40 str and that's the last time I'll need to put points in dex.

The truth is, a 2H warrior would completely wipe against a DW warrior. In fact, a DW warrior could quite easily take out two 2H warriors of the same level in the same armor. There's really no comparison. Anyone that recommends a 2H warrior hasn't played a DW warrior correctly.

My DW warrior doesn't need stamina. He has three AoE attacks that he uses right off the bat when he's surrounded, then he just turns on momentum, berserk, precise striking and perfect striking and auto attacks his way through everything in the game on nightmare.

Anyone recommending 2H is recommending it because they think it's more fun and challenging. Well, it's more challenging because it's a weak class.

2H vs. DW? Wipe
2H vs. sword/shield champion? Wipe
2H vs. Assassin/Bard? Wipe
2H vs. Assassin/Duelist? Wipe
2H vs. Bard/Ranger? Wipe
2H vs. Ranger/Duelist? Wipe
2H vs. Bloodmage/Spirit Healer? Wipe
2H vs. Bloodmage/AW? Wipe
2H vs. ANY MAGE? Wipe

were you born that retarded or did you take lessons?

Modifié par Hizoka003, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:20 .

[Maagot]

My first playthrough was a DW massive armor wearing (Warden Armor) rogue and he just smokes everything. He autocrits any stunned/paralyzed/from behind enemies with a pair of paralyzing swords and tanks like a champ with evasion + massive armor. I am thinking he is better in all respects than a DW warrior.



On the other hand, I found it painful to watch Sten swing into dead bodies after I massacre everything and switched him out for Allister's sword and board so I never really gave 2H a chance.

[gods999]

Two Hander

Two Hander's needs Strength, Warriors need Strength win win

Duel Weild needs Dexterity, Warriors need Strength no win win

[Id of Ith]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

With massive armour I'd go DW because 2H is so heavy on Stamina.
2Hers are not weak or ineffective, but it is very easy to build a bad one, and even a well-constructed 2Her needs to be managed constantly.

This is true. In fact for this reason I generally run only 1 mage when using a 2H warrior to cut down on how much pause-micro I do for other party members. You really can't let the AI handle a 2H warrior because they only do about 50% of the proper DPS due to having no idea how to time abilities against the swing timer.

[congokurtz]

gods999 wrote...

Two Hander

Two Hander's needs Strength, Warriors need Strength win win

Duel Weild needs Dexterity, Warriors need Strength no win win

Have you even played this game?

[DKJaigen]

were you born that retarded or did you take lessons?

He is right you know

gods999 wrote...

Two Hander

Two Hander's needs Strength, Warriors need Strength win win

Duel Weild needs Dexterity, Warriors need Strength no win win

[Stenmode] No [/stenmode]

Modifié par DKJaigen, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:07 .

[Hizoka003]

DKJaigen wrote...

were you born that retarded or did you take lessons?

He is right you know

gods999 wrote...

Two Hander

Two Hander's needs Strength, Warriors need Strength win win

Duel Weild needs Dexterity, Warriors need Strength no win win

[Stenmode] No [/stenmode]
my 2h wrriors never had issues killing anything... maged you sit them on thir rear with pommel then they die ith the next hit... same goes for pretty much everything else....

there are no "bad" ways to play the game just people who are terrible at RPGs that QQ when its not as easy as wow

Modifié par Hizoka003, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:08 .

[soteria]

Ironically, it's not really harder than WoW. I can think of a number of encounters in WoW that are significantly more difficult than anything I've found in DA:O, even on nightmare. In DA:O you have to create your own challenges.

[DKJaigen]

there are no "bad" ways to play the game just people who are terrible at RPGs that QQ when its not as easy as wow

That is true.

[Love-Buzz]

Sharog wrote...

you do be surprized how much down time it actually is to get in to flanking position on every single mob u hit, casting mod on anything other than orange mob is waste of time when u take them down in 3 hit anyway. sure on a stationary target that u can backstab constantly dw rogue is by far the best, how ever when it comes to sustained dps in dungeon type of mob packs dw war simply outdps by over 20% on average due to the random agro/runaway from melee enemy scripts. nto to mention quite some mobs cant be bs'ed unless u stun it first. the 2 aoe abilities a dw rogue shares with the dw warrior also does significantly less dmg, and it counts towards roughly 50% of the total dmg in majority of the trash pulls.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised, cuz I just finished my DW rogue right after my DW warrior.  Why ppl think positioning is hard is beyond me - cast Cone of Cold or Mind Blast you you autostab your targets.  You should be moving with your tank in front and your rogue on your flank anyway, so when battle starts, Taunt with your tank and your rogue has to take (OMG!!) 5 steps to get backstabs!

Also, if you use Tainted Blade, the rogue's dmg is equal to a warrior's face to face (my rogue with only TB buff does 53.5/53 dmg each hand), their armor penetration is way higher naturally, and daggers are faster.  And with TB, dual swipe and whirlwind are doing about the same anyway.  But ya, you might have to pay attention to your rogue cast a heal on him (OMG!!).  And yes, you don't need MoD for anything other than bosses, but when you do fight bosses, I like to kill them asap, and rogue does that better than anything else.  Oh and for mobs that run out of melee range, I switched over to my bow that aims in 0.3 sec and hits 75.6 dmg per hit with TB.

DW warrior is for ppl who want good dps on cruise control, DW rogue is for ppl who want better dps and don't mind micro'ing their character or using spells strategically.  The only way in which DW warriors are better is as a tank but if I want a tank, I'd rather use sword/shield.