I loved DAO. but i hated DA2. I hoped that ME3 wouldnt suffer the same fate. I was very wrong, and that was terribly disappointing.
How can someone talk about "artistic vision" when you deliver a produtuc that is missing pieces ( day 1 DLC) ?
Or how can you call something, an " piece of art" when you broked the entire thing within 10 minutes and used photoshoped photos and stuff? Oh thats just terrible. Very Disapointing
I was afraid this would happen.
Débuté par
The Angry One
, avril 05 2012 05:10
Retour en haut
#277
Posté 05 avril 2012 - 11:54
Spectre Impersonator
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hang in there, sweetheart. The powers with us as long as the fact that they lied about the product is with us.The Angry One wrote...
So basically BioWare intend to condescend to us, ignoring the promises made and the fact that the ending violates the themes of the rest of the game.
Exactly as I predicted, people are coming out and saying we should be happy, that we "won", that we'll never be satisfied.
#278
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:04
WyntrKat
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The Angry One wrote...
Well, to clarify. (The Angry One Extended Cut)
When I say "we lose", I regarded this whole thing as a fight to save BioWare.
I don't want to lose BioWare, they made games I truly loved, and one of the few companies who actually acknowledge that female gamers exist.
If this continues, then I can't support BioWare anymore, and in that regard... I have lost.
Me too, and it's heartbreaking.
#279
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:31
palanora
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JnEricsonx wrote...
Shin Yodama wrote...
Well said OP.
I fail to see how they can say "artistic vision" when the ending was blatantly stolen from another game. I believe that is known as plagiarism.
Well, bye bye Bioware. Hello Wasteland 2.
Wasteland 2, HELL YES. God I'm old, 1988 RESPECT!
thats my vote i am even older ,,,,,, good job OP
My feelings also .
#280
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:43
FunstuffofDoom
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I'm adding this to my signature. I don't especially think, in the end, the people on this forum are going to be the ones who should really, really read this thread. But it'll put the link in close reach, and I simply can't fault the argument, and it needs to be spread more. Clarification and closure are not what I want. I don't want the engine fixed on my broken car. I want to fly.
#281
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:45
MikeC99
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Angry One - thanks.
Below is cut and pasted from another post I did a while back. My updates post the pre-PAX announcements in bold. If you want to skip all the details and get to the guts of it - hop to the last two paragraphs.
From previous post:
OK - points I'd like to make ontwo three issues that
seemed to get raised as if they are credos.
(1) "Artistic 'merit' is antithesis of audience feedback/ control."
Let's be really clear. As a writer one of the central tenets is : get serious
and comprehensive feedback at least three times at the significant points in
developing, writing the body of work, and finalising it. Anyone who either
doesn't or does and ignores the feedback is foolish. Bioware: Yes and
Unknown – but not looking good. BW did ask for feedback. But from the thousands
and thousands of bits of feedback, tho only concept that has been feedback to
us is ‘clarification’. I include
extended ending that isn’t specifically communicated as containing new concepts
as clarification. In the absence of clearer messages, this and any other take
is speculation.
One in a hundred times a very good writer might get away with it. This does not
mean the writer has to do whatever the feedback says, but you had better be
damned sure that you address all the issues raised, even if the end result is
to not change a thing. At least in your head you need to go through the process
of clearly and logically rebutting the feedback. This can only help the
creative process and in the end produce a better product. Bioware: as yet,
we have had no clear communication that BW acknowledge that the ending could
have been better. What we also clearly have NOT had is any acknowledgement of
the critical issues raised and if they are to be addressed, eg plot holes. At
least BW should say: Yes, we acknowledge these, but that’s the way it goes.
Sorry folks, now we’re moving on. In the absence of clear acknowledgment the
lack of same will be perceived by many as either cowardice or deceitfulness
arising from arrogance. Facilitation and Communication 1.1 (I’m making this
term up as just a generic tag) also clearly says that the perceptions of your
audience need to be addressed, even if you think the perceptions are wrong.
Specifically explain how they are wrong, if you think they are. Bioware Overall
on this: Uncertain, and this in itself at this point of time = fail.
(2) "Once it's done it's done. As it's art, to alter it would degrade
the artist and /or the specific art form and /or "art" as a
concept embodying the purity inherent in creation" - or any variant
on how this is expressed.
This is a conceit. This has more to do with the artist than the 'art' itself.
Creating art is like having a child. Any artist who truly believes in what
she/he wants to achieve wants it to be the very best it can be - for the sake
of the art, not for his/ her own sake. As a parent, I want what's best for my
children - for their sakes; not what best reflects on me. Anyone who is more
concerned in how the art reflects on themselves than on the nature (ie quality)
of the art itself is guilty of self interest and pride over-riding the artistic
endeavour - both its journey and final product. I'll certainly own up to
falling for this one myself at times. It's a very human and understandable
thing: but it's wrong thinking, and eventually any good artist gets through it
and pursues the real goal - the quality of the art itself. Bioware: First
off, let me acknowledge that good management does NOT expose their team
directly. Good management also supports their team’s efforts no matter what.
Bioware: Yep – and so they should. But this also means that good management
addresses the issues directly, and therefore has to actively engage the
audience/ clients itself. Bioware: To
date, not a pass – not hopelessly at the bottom of the class, but definitely
struggling. Asking for feedback was good. Saying we are listening was good.
Saying we are working on it was good. Saying that at PAX – the first face to
face opportunity – what is hard to interpret as anything other than: what ever
it is that we are doing about whatever issues we may or may not be addressing,
will not be a topic for discussion. Bioware = fail at this stage, but in all
fairness, let PAX roll out and we’ll see.
Thinking through these together, there is a logic that artists want feedback,
positive and negative, as it betters their craft. In the end, what the art
product ends up being is totally in the control of the artist. Absolutely. But
'art' by its very nature, is created for an audience. Anything purported to be
'art' that an 'artist' claims was not created with an audience in mind ...
well, let's just say make sure you are wearing the biggest doubters hat you can
find.
(3) Fans, opinions, and 'rights'.
Any one who has done Facilitation and Communication 1.1 knows:
(i) first decide who your audience is;
(ii) cut the cloth of your message to suit them.
(iii) actively engage your audience, and make sure you are clear as to whether
you are communicating (one way - no audience participation); liasing (audience
part is more passive than active); or consulting (audience participation is
more active than passive);
(iv) listen to your audience;
(vi) make sure your audience knows they are being listened to by specifically
addressing their issues;
(vii) allow the emotions of the audience to vent, but control the process so
that the issues remain the focus;
(viii) listen to your audience some more;
(ix) at all times make it clear what you are doing, and when you have finished
doing what you made clear you were going to do, tell the audience what it was
that you've just done.
At any of these points, if your audience says you failed to deliver, see points
(iv) and (viii) above.
If you reach an impasse, restate your position as clearly as you can,
acknowledge that you understand and accept the validity of the audience to have
that view point (NB this is NOT the same as agreeing to the point - it is
acknowledging the right of the audience to have that viewpoint), state clearly
what actions you are taking (including finalising actions eg "Let's agree
to disagree and move on."), then do what you said you were going to do. Bioware:
(i) I think this is part of a broader problem – they are either not sure
anymore or are over-reaching the breadth of their audience. Do that and you
create something that nobody is quite satisfied with. (ii) and (iii): Yes and
no. The message has been ‘we are listening’ and we will do something’. This is
hopeful, but ambiguous. Soppy communication or deceit I can’t tell. (iv) to
(vii): Process wise, yes. Honest intent – can’t say. At this stage only the end
product (ie whatever the dlc and anything else is) will illuminate this.
Worries me, but have to abstain at this time.
I am not offering any judgement call in this on either Bioware or the fans/
gamers/ audience. Bioware: OK, well now I am. I just am sick to death of
dogma being trotted out as logical argument and irrefutable creed.
cheers
MikeC
Yes - I have an opinion - as anyone who looks at the banner below can see.
One of the reasons I put it there was as an issue of transparency. Don't even get me started on THAT one!
End comments on previous post.
OK some final thoughts now:
Did I mention Transparency? Lacking.
This has been a one way street. Good part of it is that Bioware opened it. Bad
thing is – we still don’t know where it leads (which would be OK, provided that
the next bit wasn’t true) and we have had no substantial communication as to
where it leads. Yes we have information that there is a product coming, but no
communication on what we should expect the outcomes to be, ie not the details
of the end, but what the product is specifically addressing. At the minimum,
and completely acknowledging that Bioware needs to keep some of its powder dry,
BW should make a clear statement of the nature of the issues raised and whether
they will be addressed: eg Plot holes – yep we acknowledge them , or No we
don’t. Either way the outcome of the product will be that they will be
addressed, or we’d like to but can’t, or as we don’t think there there in the first
place, here’s our argument as to why they’re not plot holes. Ditto for break in
narrative cohesion; accusations of Deus Ex Machina; etc. etc.
It’s been said before by those who actually ‘get’ the bigger
picture. The bigger picture is where Bioware had set this trilogy of games up,
and that they had genuinely established a platform that seriously and
successfully crossed the lines between game, movie and novel (graphic novel
yes, but anyone who judges quality by genre is … hmmm… nope, no other word for
it – wrong.). To get this far, and get here so well – OK not perfectly, but
honestly, no-one clear thinking would have expected there not to be short
comings, flaws along the way. This far … and then … miss this bigger picture so
badly.
And the sad thing, I really think Bioware don’t get that
much of the emotion about the ending comes from knowing that this trilogy could
have been, should have been, still could be, not what we wanted to be in the
specifics of happy/ sad spelled out/ left intriguing - but as a (yes) flawed but seminal work that
would stand as a milestone for how the new world of ‘games’ would be when they
are no longer ‘games’ but interactive, adult, thoughtful, coherent and
entertaining stories.
That’s what hurts me more than anything.
Cheers
MikeC
I fear we face overwhelming odds, little chance of victory,
certain death…. What are we waiting
for? I don't know - but still on the line.
Below is cut and pasted from another post I did a while back. My updates post the pre-PAX announcements in bold. If you want to skip all the details and get to the guts of it - hop to the last two paragraphs.
From previous post:
OK - points I'd like to make on
seemed to get raised as if they are credos.
(1) "Artistic 'merit' is antithesis of audience feedback/ control."
Let's be really clear. As a writer one of the central tenets is : get serious
and comprehensive feedback at least three times at the significant points in
developing, writing the body of work, and finalising it. Anyone who either
doesn't or does and ignores the feedback is foolish. Bioware: Yes and
Unknown – but not looking good. BW did ask for feedback. But from the thousands
and thousands of bits of feedback, tho only concept that has been feedback to
us is ‘clarification’. I include
extended ending that isn’t specifically communicated as containing new concepts
as clarification. In the absence of clearer messages, this and any other take
is speculation.
One in a hundred times a very good writer might get away with it. This does not
mean the writer has to do whatever the feedback says, but you had better be
damned sure that you address all the issues raised, even if the end result is
to not change a thing. At least in your head you need to go through the process
of clearly and logically rebutting the feedback. This can only help the
creative process and in the end produce a better product. Bioware: as yet,
we have had no clear communication that BW acknowledge that the ending could
have been better. What we also clearly have NOT had is any acknowledgement of
the critical issues raised and if they are to be addressed, eg plot holes. At
least BW should say: Yes, we acknowledge these, but that’s the way it goes.
Sorry folks, now we’re moving on. In the absence of clear acknowledgment the
lack of same will be perceived by many as either cowardice or deceitfulness
arising from arrogance. Facilitation and Communication 1.1 (I’m making this
term up as just a generic tag) also clearly says that the perceptions of your
audience need to be addressed, even if you think the perceptions are wrong.
Specifically explain how they are wrong, if you think they are. Bioware Overall
on this: Uncertain, and this in itself at this point of time = fail.
(2) "Once it's done it's done. As it's art, to alter it would degrade
the artist and /or the specific art form and /or "art" as a
concept embodying the purity inherent in creation" - or any variant
on how this is expressed.
This is a conceit. This has more to do with the artist than the 'art' itself.
Creating art is like having a child. Any artist who truly believes in what
she/he wants to achieve wants it to be the very best it can be - for the sake
of the art, not for his/ her own sake. As a parent, I want what's best for my
children - for their sakes; not what best reflects on me. Anyone who is more
concerned in how the art reflects on themselves than on the nature (ie quality)
of the art itself is guilty of self interest and pride over-riding the artistic
endeavour - both its journey and final product. I'll certainly own up to
falling for this one myself at times. It's a very human and understandable
thing: but it's wrong thinking, and eventually any good artist gets through it
and pursues the real goal - the quality of the art itself. Bioware: First
off, let me acknowledge that good management does NOT expose their team
directly. Good management also supports their team’s efforts no matter what.
Bioware: Yep – and so they should. But this also means that good management
addresses the issues directly, and therefore has to actively engage the
audience/ clients itself. Bioware: To
date, not a pass – not hopelessly at the bottom of the class, but definitely
struggling. Asking for feedback was good. Saying we are listening was good.
Saying we are working on it was good. Saying that at PAX – the first face to
face opportunity – what is hard to interpret as anything other than: what ever
it is that we are doing about whatever issues we may or may not be addressing,
will not be a topic for discussion. Bioware = fail at this stage, but in all
fairness, let PAX roll out and we’ll see.
Thinking through these together, there is a logic that artists want feedback,
positive and negative, as it betters their craft. In the end, what the art
product ends up being is totally in the control of the artist. Absolutely. But
'art' by its very nature, is created for an audience. Anything purported to be
'art' that an 'artist' claims was not created with an audience in mind ...
well, let's just say make sure you are wearing the biggest doubters hat you can
find.
(3) Fans, opinions, and 'rights'.
Any one who has done Facilitation and Communication 1.1 knows:
(i) first decide who your audience is;
(ii) cut the cloth of your message to suit them.
(iii) actively engage your audience, and make sure you are clear as to whether
you are communicating (one way - no audience participation); liasing (audience
part is more passive than active); or consulting (audience participation is
more active than passive);
(iv) listen to your audience;
(vi) make sure your audience knows they are being listened to by specifically
addressing their issues;
(vii) allow the emotions of the audience to vent, but control the process so
that the issues remain the focus;
(viii) listen to your audience some more;
(ix) at all times make it clear what you are doing, and when you have finished
doing what you made clear you were going to do, tell the audience what it was
that you've just done.
At any of these points, if your audience says you failed to deliver, see points
(iv) and (viii) above.
If you reach an impasse, restate your position as clearly as you can,
acknowledge that you understand and accept the validity of the audience to have
that view point (NB this is NOT the same as agreeing to the point - it is
acknowledging the right of the audience to have that viewpoint), state clearly
what actions you are taking (including finalising actions eg "Let's agree
to disagree and move on."), then do what you said you were going to do. Bioware:
(i) I think this is part of a broader problem – they are either not sure
anymore or are over-reaching the breadth of their audience. Do that and you
create something that nobody is quite satisfied with. (ii) and (iii): Yes and
no. The message has been ‘we are listening’ and we will do something’. This is
hopeful, but ambiguous. Soppy communication or deceit I can’t tell. (iv) to
(vii): Process wise, yes. Honest intent – can’t say. At this stage only the end
product (ie whatever the dlc and anything else is) will illuminate this.
Worries me, but have to abstain at this time.
I am not offering any judgement call in this on either Bioware or the fans/
gamers/ audience. Bioware: OK, well now I am. I just am sick to death of
dogma being trotted out as logical argument and irrefutable creed.
cheers
MikeC
Yes - I have an opinion - as anyone who looks at the banner below can see.
One of the reasons I put it there was as an issue of transparency. Don't even get me started on THAT one!
End comments on previous post.
OK some final thoughts now:
Did I mention Transparency? Lacking.
This has been a one way street. Good part of it is that Bioware opened it. Bad
thing is – we still don’t know where it leads (which would be OK, provided that
the next bit wasn’t true) and we have had no substantial communication as to
where it leads. Yes we have information that there is a product coming, but no
communication on what we should expect the outcomes to be, ie not the details
of the end, but what the product is specifically addressing. At the minimum,
and completely acknowledging that Bioware needs to keep some of its powder dry,
BW should make a clear statement of the nature of the issues raised and whether
they will be addressed: eg Plot holes – yep we acknowledge them , or No we
don’t. Either way the outcome of the product will be that they will be
addressed, or we’d like to but can’t, or as we don’t think there there in the first
place, here’s our argument as to why they’re not plot holes. Ditto for break in
narrative cohesion; accusations of Deus Ex Machina; etc. etc.
It’s been said before by those who actually ‘get’ the bigger
picture. The bigger picture is where Bioware had set this trilogy of games up,
and that they had genuinely established a platform that seriously and
successfully crossed the lines between game, movie and novel (graphic novel
yes, but anyone who judges quality by genre is … hmmm… nope, no other word for
it – wrong.). To get this far, and get here so well – OK not perfectly, but
honestly, no-one clear thinking would have expected there not to be short
comings, flaws along the way. This far … and then … miss this bigger picture so
badly.
And the sad thing, I really think Bioware don’t get that
much of the emotion about the ending comes from knowing that this trilogy could
have been, should have been, still could be, not what we wanted to be in the
specifics of happy/ sad spelled out/ left intriguing - but as a (yes) flawed but seminal work that
would stand as a milestone for how the new world of ‘games’ would be when they
are no longer ‘games’ but interactive, adult, thoughtful, coherent and
entertaining stories.
That’s what hurts me more than anything.
Cheers
MikeC
I fear we face overwhelming odds, little chance of victory,
certain death…. What are we waiting
for? I don't know - but still on the line.
Modifié par MikeC99, 06 avril 2012 - 12:46 .
#282
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:50
humansrsuperior
-
- Members
- 256 messages
Yes to everything. At this point I'm willing to see what Bioware will give us in this DLC, but I'm not holding out any real hope that it'll be something that embodies Bioware's true potential and be the ending we all wanted.
#283
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:50
killnoob
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- Members
- 856 messages
good post, adding an (or more) alternative endings will not diminish the so-called artistic vision or integrity, on the contrary, you are providing fans with more options. It's going to create a win-win situation, you also secure fan's trust and loyalty for your future games.
Stubborness is no good for future business
Stubborness is no good for future business
Modifié par killnoob, 06 avril 2012 - 12:53 .
#284
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 12:52
Broham
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- Members
- 119 messages
The Angry One wrote...
Well, to clarify. (The Angry One Extended Cut)
When I say "we lose", I regarded this whole thing as a fight to save BioWare.
I don't want to lose BioWare, they made games I truly loved, and one of the few companies who actually acknowledge that female gamers exist.
If this continues, then I can't support BioWare anymore, and in that regard... I have lost.
Agreed. Your original post speaks volumes.
All I can say at this point is I want my Shepard's (all 4 of them) choices to matter and the ending to this great trilogy to make sense. If this "Extended Cut - Clarification DLC" does this (no plotholes, full closure and varied cutscenes based on my Shepard's impact on the galaxy the last 100+ hours) then I'm for it.
Is it my preferred outcome? Of course not. This isn't a defeat to me, just a confirmation that my time with Bioware has come to an end. I'm continuing along my prefered gaming path and giving a slight nod/salute to Bioware as they prepare to branch off down another path. Sad thing, but I'm ok in knowing there are other companies and games still out there/being developed that I'd enjoy.
I've enjoyed Bioware for the last decade and will continue to enjoy the great titles I currently have.
#285
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:10
ket_shee
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- Members
- 283 messages
The Angry One wrote...
snip
I know a lot of others feel the same way. If I go to a restaurant and order steak and they give me porridge, am I being unreasonable for pointing out that I did not, in fact, order porridge?
Consumers are never unreasonable for voicing what they want. Expecting to get what they want starts to become unreasonable at larger and larger corporate levels. I want cheaper gas prices, but I don't expect BP or OPEC to comply. This isn't because our rights as consumers are invalid, its because the companies are 'too big to fail,' so they're too big to care.
The Angry One wrote...
"The artistic vision of the Mass Effect team must be preserved!"
I actually agree. It's their vision and their game. But here's the thing. The ending is not their vision. The ending is the vision of one man, the lead writer, who wrote and implimented it without peer review.
The ending as it is completely destroys the artistic vision of the writing team. It contradicts it. It cheapens it. It makes it all irrelevant. Not only ME3, but the entire trilogy.
That's the real dangerous precident here. That we allow one person, who did not create the universe in the first place, to ultimately decide the fate of a team effort.
It's hard to agree or disagree on this, because the evidence I've seen of this is shaky at best (re: was the ending written exclusively by Mac Walters or were there other forms of input?) . If you have more soild evidence, I'd be eager to see it.
Otherwise, I'd rather point out that one of the defining characteristics of art is originality. Unfortunately, Mass Effect is not entirely original.
The Angry One wrote...
snip
Some of you may gain satisfaction from this, and all I have to say to that is... I pity you. You would rather see fans driven off than have BioWare live up to it's potential greatness. You'd rather see BioWare slide into mediocrity than ever admit they're wrong. It is, simply, a shame.
We started this movement because we love and appreciate BioWare but it's becoming increasingly clear that BioWare doesn't appreciate itself.
The fact they're responding with what seems to be a legitimate response to the endings outbreak does garner some satisfication in me. About 30% satisfaction (so technically I'm still considered 'dissatisfied').
Sadly have to agree with a lot of what you said minus the parts mentioned above. Wish I could expect as much as you, but as a pessimist its hard to see new endings as viable at this point.
EDIT: Thank you for not using the word Checkmate.
Modifié par ket_shee, 06 avril 2012 - 01:46 .
#286
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:15
themanynamed
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- Members
- 29 messages
The OP has said pretty much everything I feel about the 'clarification' dlc.
Bioware wants to try and gild the excrament and pretend everything is fine. I find expected timeline for release very suspect in regards to this. It's as if they hope if they wait long enough, then the furor will die down and both fans and media will forget people objected to the ending in the first place.
In my mind, the announced dlc is nothing but a tokenistic attempt to keep up the appearance that Bioware is in touch with and is responsive to its fanbase. I think I'm more insulted now than before since they seem to believe I'd be appeased by such half-hearted, defensive spin doctoring.
Bioware wants to try and gild the excrament and pretend everything is fine. I find expected timeline for release very suspect in regards to this. It's as if they hope if they wait long enough, then the furor will die down and both fans and media will forget people objected to the ending in the first place.
In my mind, the announced dlc is nothing but a tokenistic attempt to keep up the appearance that Bioware is in touch with and is responsive to its fanbase. I think I'm more insulted now than before since they seem to believe I'd be appeased by such half-hearted, defensive spin doctoring.
#287
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:18
Alpr
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- Members
- 280 messages
Artistic Vision -> Photoshopping a stock photo and putting it on Tali's face. Brilliant!
Modifié par Alpr, 06 avril 2012 - 01:19 .
#288
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:20
Ashilana
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- Members
- 973 messages
Alpr wrote...
Artistic Vision -> Photoshopping a stock photo and putting it on Tali's face. Brilliant!
Can't mess with that level of brilliance... any change to it might make it...not horrible.
#289
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:46
silversteele
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- Members
- 3 messages
@ The Angry One
Beautifully put.
Throughout this I've tried to maintain a modicum of optimism that at some point Bioware is going to jump out like we just walked into our surprise birthday party , and yell " Fooled you!! Indoctrination Theory all the way, just wait and see the amazing endings we have in store for you. They'll relate directly to the decisions you made over the course of the three games you just faithfully spent a minimum of 150 hours of your precious time guiding the course of commander shephard's life with the rapacity of a crack addict through- just wait, it's going to be amazing!! You guys got so upset- we just wish you could see the looks on your faces!! HA HA !!!" This is what I keep waiting for Bioware to come out and say. We'd all have a laugh - it's going to be great...right? "sigh"
I really don't think this is like changing the ending to a book...the closest comparison would be a choose your own adventure book, and it has several endings - some better than others- depending on the choices you make.
Beautifully put.
Throughout this I've tried to maintain a modicum of optimism that at some point Bioware is going to jump out like we just walked into our surprise birthday party , and yell " Fooled you!! Indoctrination Theory all the way, just wait and see the amazing endings we have in store for you. They'll relate directly to the decisions you made over the course of the three games you just faithfully spent a minimum of 150 hours of your precious time guiding the course of commander shephard's life with the rapacity of a crack addict through- just wait, it's going to be amazing!! You guys got so upset- we just wish you could see the looks on your faces!! HA HA !!!" This is what I keep waiting for Bioware to come out and say. We'd all have a laugh - it's going to be great...right? "sigh"
I really don't think this is like changing the ending to a book...the closest comparison would be a choose your own adventure book, and it has several endings - some better than others- depending on the choices you make.
#290
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:46
Mastermadskills
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- Members
- 1 212 messages
HOLD THE WALLET!
If they won't listen to reason, they WILL listen to us vote with our wallets!
Bioware, you are a COMPANY and WE THE CONSUMERS are the ones who pay your bills!
Click the following link and make your wallet heard!:
http://social.biowar.../index/11036313
If they won't listen to reason, they WILL listen to us vote with our wallets!
Bioware, you are a COMPANY and WE THE CONSUMERS are the ones who pay your bills!
Click the following link and make your wallet heard!:
http://social.biowar.../index/11036313
#291
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:50
Shinobu
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Great post, OP.
I feel sorry for the writers who will be forced to "explain" the inexplicable, knowing a storm of rage inevitably awaits their efforts. Better to just have gone with IT or a "choosing not to choose" ending, which could have actually made people *happy*.
I feel sorry for the writers who will be forced to "explain" the inexplicable, knowing a storm of rage inevitably awaits their efforts. Better to just have gone with IT or a "choosing not to choose" ending, which could have actually made people *happy*.
#292
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:52
CaptainIngenuity
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Shin Yodama wrote...
Well said OP.
I fail to see how they can say "artistic vision" when the ending was blatantly stolen from another game. I believe that is known as plagiarism.
Well, bye bye Bioware. Hello Wasteland 2.
They are so close to their mark needed to get Obsidian on board for wasteland 2. Already invested in that little gem
#293
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:53
Shinobu
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silversteele wrote...
@ The Angry One
Beautifully put.
Throughout this I've tried to maintain a modicum of optimism that at some point Bioware is going to jump out like we just walked into our surprise birthday party , and yell " Fooled you!! Indoctrination Theory all the way, just wait and see the amazing endings we have in store for you. They'll relate directly to the decisions you made over the course of the three games you just faithfully spent a minimum of 150 hours of your precious time guiding the course of commander shephard's life with the rapacity of a crack addict through- just wait, it's going to be amazing!! You guys got so upset- we just wish you could see the looks on your faces!! HA HA !!!" This is what I keep waiting for Bioware to come out and say. We'd all have a laugh - it's going to be great...right? "sigh"
Deep down inside I hoped this was going to be the case.
#294
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:56
RiouHotaru
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How about you wait till you see the clarification before you determine that the ending is "permanently broken"?
Oh wait right, because if it doesn't answer your questions to your satisfaction, you'll say it's pointless.
Oh wait right, because if it doesn't answer your questions to your satisfaction, you'll say it's pointless.
#295
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 01:58
SirBob1613
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Bantz wrote...
i still don't get how they can use the artistic integrity crap when they took stuff off the internet and photoshopped it for their game.
#296
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 02:01
2484Stryker
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The Angry One wrote...
So basically BioWare intend to condescend to us, ignoring the promises made and the fact that the ending violates the themes of the rest of the game.
Exactly as I predicted, people are coming out and saying we should be happy, that we "won", that we'll never be satisfied. It's the worst of both worlds.
Let's go over some of the arguments made by ending supporters and BioWare.
"You got what you wanted and you're still complaining! Some people will never be happy!"
No. I haven't got what I wanted. I wanted endings that fit the tone and themes of the trilogy, that fit the character of Commander Shepard. Not an explanation or extention of the existing endings.
I know a lot of others feel the same way. If I go to a restaurant and order steak and they give me porridge, am I being unreasonable for pointing out that I did not, in fact, order porridge?
"The artistic vision of the Mass Effect team must be preserved!"
I actually agree. It's their vision and their game. But here's the thing. The ending is not their vision. The ending is the vision of one man, the lead writer, who wrote and implimented it without peer review.
The ending as it is completely destroys the artistic vision of the writing team. It contradicts it. It cheapens it. It makes it all irrelevant. Not only ME3, but the entire trilogy.
That's the real dangerous precident here. That we allow one person, who did not create the universe in the first place, to ultimately decide the fate of a team effort.
"The ending is good. It just needs explanation and clarification."
If your supposedly deep ending needs a handbook to go along with it, then it has failed.
If you admit your ending needs to be clarified, then it has failed.
"LOL did you seriously expect a new ending?"
Yes. Yes I did. And I will continue to do so, or I won't even bother with BioWare anymore.
The ending as it stands is not just bad. It's broken, and no amount of "clarification" will change that.
How will they clarify the Normandy for example? Add Shepard telling Joker to go? That solves nothing. Why? Because Shepard doesn't have the authority to do so, only Hackett does. That's just one problem out of DOZENS.
"Stop complaining. It's free!"
Many of us have stated we'd rather pay for a new ending, than keep the current one for free. This is a non-argument.
"Retakers have won, shut up already."
No, we haven't won. If this goes through then we have lost. Badly.
Some of you may gain satisfaction from this, and all I have to say to that is... I pity you. You would rather see fans driven off than have BioWare live up to it's potential greatness. You'd rather see BioWare slide into mediocrity than ever admit they're wrong. It is, simply, a shame.
We started this movement because we love and appreciate BioWare but it's becoming increasingly clear that BioWare doesn't appreciate itself.
Thank you for posting this. My thoughts exactly.
To me, getting that broken ending at the end of ME3 is like going out on a date with a hot girl. Everything goes smoothly until I drop her off at home, at which point she throws a turd on my face. When I get all insulted, she calls me an entitled brat for not appreciating the wonderful date that we'd had.
Finally, after applying enough pressure, she decides that she'll "clarify" why she threw turd on my face. Well, guess what, I don't really care.
#297
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 02:01
CaptainIngenuity
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sw04ca wrote...
The lead writer doesn't have any peers. That's why he's the 'lead', rather than just a 'writer'.
If the ending was his idea he really did neither of those
#298
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 02:03
2484Stryker
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sw04ca wrote...
The lead writer doesn't have any peers. That's why he's the 'lead', rather than just a 'writer'.
A president is a leader of a country - that doesn't mean his actions aren't critiqued to s*it.
#299
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 02:08
JeosDinas
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Literally every statement in the OP's post is no one else's fault but the OP's. "I would have prefered x..." is no more compelling basis for a discussion now than it was when this fiasco started.
Modifié par JeosDinas, 06 avril 2012 - 02:17 .
#300
Posté 06 avril 2012 - 02:29
Esker02
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I hate the ending as much as anybody else, but I do encourage some patience on the issue. Like most others, I think, I would have preferred to PAY for DLC that was substantively larger in scope than to be freely provided with one that seems to be rather narrow in scope. And like most others, I fully understand why patience might be in short supply at the moment.
That said, I'm holding out a last bit of hope that what they are calling "clarification" and "extension" are actually meaningful alterations, but they're just too proud to call it that. They want to act like they haven't 'changed' the ending and 'caved' to the fans, so they're using certain language in talking about it, when in fact the DLC will be a bit closer to what we want to see than, perhaps, what it seems like at the moment.
I knew deep down they would never accept a total rewrite of the ending, but if they can at least "extend" the ending to the extent that it doesn't appear to have totally doomed everything and everybody we care about (and manage to not FRACTURE this concept, like only Synthesis / Control = possible new Mass Relays, adds meaning to the conflict resolution of the three games, but only Destroy = reunite with crew, and adds meaning to all of the relationships you established over the three games) and "clarify" the ending to the extent that it doesn't appear to have violated every notion of common sense and ME lore that we've been provided, I might be won over.
If they give us a new camera angle for the crash sequence and a few additional lines of dialogue with the Catalyst wherein he just reiterates that the conflict is "inevitable"... I will not be (and frankly, if this happens, I put the blame to a certain extent on all those that demanded something free).
That said, I'm holding out a last bit of hope that what they are calling "clarification" and "extension" are actually meaningful alterations, but they're just too proud to call it that. They want to act like they haven't 'changed' the ending and 'caved' to the fans, so they're using certain language in talking about it, when in fact the DLC will be a bit closer to what we want to see than, perhaps, what it seems like at the moment.
I knew deep down they would never accept a total rewrite of the ending, but if they can at least "extend" the ending to the extent that it doesn't appear to have totally doomed everything and everybody we care about (and manage to not FRACTURE this concept, like only Synthesis / Control = possible new Mass Relays, adds meaning to the conflict resolution of the three games, but only Destroy = reunite with crew, and adds meaning to all of the relationships you established over the three games) and "clarify" the ending to the extent that it doesn't appear to have violated every notion of common sense and ME lore that we've been provided, I might be won over.
If they give us a new camera angle for the crash sequence and a few additional lines of dialogue with the Catalyst wherein he just reiterates that the conflict is "inevitable"... I will not be (and frankly, if this happens, I put the blame to a certain extent on all those that demanded something free).
