367 réponses à ce sujet

[MaYtriX]

Nezzer wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

Sigh, I'm going to put on my troll armor, and respectfully, disagree.
tbh, Bioware releasing a free DLC in response to the fans is unheard of. I'm going to put this bluntly and say, we were lucky enough to get it.
I myself have played all 3 mass effect games racking 400+ hours for all of them. I was one of the first people to hold the line and I quite giddily jumped up with glee after hearing the announcement. You argue that the reason that the ending is bad is because it disrespects your opinion. Well, that is, your opinion.
The majority of the people who had a problem with the ending, was the plot holes, closure, and a few wanting a happy ending. Well, with the (free!) DLC patch, the majority of the "minority" (as some labelled it) will begin to fall apart. I will get what I want with this patch, a happy ending, and closure. With this, I think that the ending actually does the mass effect series quite well, as the whole details of the story being lost in time fits wonderfully well. Yes, in the end, it all boils down to RGB, but it's the choices you made and how they played out that matter most with this series.

Well, the worst thing about the ending IMHO is Shepard's surrender to the Bieber-Reaper. Accepting his options without question. Shepard as a character was completely destroyed in the ending, and that's what bugs me the most. I believe a lot of people share the same feeling as I do. I can't think of a way this new DLC would fix this, so no, it's not a victory at all for me.

I wonder how Bioware would respond to this thread, but I can't see them ever doing so.

I personally don't see how Shepard wouldn't agree with space child. Shepard had one goal throughout the entire trilogy, and that was to stop the reapers. And that chioce does present itself.
HOWEVER, after knowing a little bit more about the reapers and having TIM talk about how wonderfully humanity could expand if we controlled the reapers, that choice also presents itself. (Although it WAS odd that Shepard never once agreed, or could agree, I actually agreed with the TIM but always had to tell him to **** off) 
As for synthisis, the quarian/geth war as well as organic/synthetic troubles are also apparent throughout the entire trilogy. The theme is there, so it does make sense for Shepard to choose synthesis.
Granted, it could have been themed a tad better, but YOU  are shepard, and the ending makes you stop the reapers, something youve been trying to do throughout the entire trilogy.

[WilliamDracul88]

Nothing has changed. We will stay here.

[Xeranx]

The Angry One wrote...

"Stop complaining. It's free!"
Many of us have stated we'd rather pay for a new ending, than keep the current one for free. This is a non-argument.

This is why, even if I thought as you did, I wouldn't come out and vocally support you.  You and how many others called Bioware liars, decievers, and whatever else.  Then you make an asinine statement like this when you already paid $70-$85 (more in other countries)?  What kind of nonsense is this?

You'll pay for a new ending...if they had released a new ending dlc and charged for it, that's exactly what you would have done.  With this statement you are being absolutely redundant and not asking for what is your due as a customer.  

Retakers (some since you said many, but I've seen a lot make this statement that I think there is a majority that feel this way):"You lied to us Bioware.  Gives us a better ending we'll buy from you."

Bioware/EA: "That's the plan."

I can't and never will support this sentiment for as long as I live in regards to any company for any product.  It just boggles my mind that people actually think this way and see no problem nor any potential for abuse from such a sentiment.  

If you feel this way, then keep it to yourself and don't let it be known by companies whose very desires (for some) are to milk you dry of what could be considered hard earned money.  I and others would be more than happy to benefit from having companies actually do what they can to put out quality than rush to give me crap and dole out more crap because you or others like you will pony up the cash for whatever drivel they decide to produce.

[Nezzer]

MaYtriX wrote...

Nezzer wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

Sigh, I'm going to put on my troll armor, and respectfully, disagree.
tbh, Bioware releasing a free DLC in response to the fans is unheard of. I'm going to put this bluntly and say, we were lucky enough to get it.
I myself have played all 3 mass effect games racking 400+ hours for all of them. I was one of the first people to hold the line and I quite giddily jumped up with glee after hearing the announcement. You argue that the reason that the ending is bad is because it disrespects your opinion. Well, that is, your opinion.
The majority of the people who had a problem with the ending, was the plot holes, closure, and a few wanting a happy ending. Well, with the (free!) DLC patch, the majority of the "minority" (as some labelled it) will begin to fall apart. I will get what I want with this patch, a happy ending, and closure. With this, I think that the ending actually does the mass effect series quite well, as the whole details of the story being lost in time fits wonderfully well. Yes, in the end, it all boils down to RGB, but it's the choices you made and how they played out that matter most with this series.

Well, the worst thing about the ending IMHO is Shepard's surrender to the Bieber-Reaper. Accepting his options without question. Shepard as a character was completely destroyed in the ending, and that's what bugs me the most. I believe a lot of people share the same feeling as I do. I can't think of a way this new DLC would fix this, so no, it's not a victory at all for me.

I wonder how Bioware would respond to this thread, but I can't see them ever doing so.

I personally don't see how Shepard wouldn't agree with space child. Shepard had one goal throughout the entire trilogy, and that was to stop the reapers. And that chioce does present itself.
HOWEVER, after knowing a little bit more about the reapers and having TIM talk about how wonderfully humanity could expand if we controlled the reapers, that choice also presents itself. (Although it WAS odd that Shepard never once agreed, or could agree, I actually agreed with the TIM but always had to tell him to **** off) 
As for synthisis, the quarian/geth war as well as organic/synthetic troubles are also apparent throughout the entire trilogy. The theme is there, so it does make sense for Shepard to choose synthesis.
Granted, it could have been themed a tad better, but YOU  are shepard, and the ending makes you stop the reapers, something youve been trying to do throughout the entire trilogy.

And why should Shepard believe in a being that says he controls the Reapers and refers to the Reapers as "we"? It'd be the same thing as if it was Harbinger on his place giving Shepard those options.

[Alent]

Hold the line, with your wallet!

[aj2070]

BWGungan wrote...

I wouldn't even care if the ending was just plain disappointing, if it hadn't completely torched the universe fans loved in the process.

^ This.  It is possible to "kill" Shepard without having to torch the franchise and run.

[Taritu]

Retake wanted a changed ending. Bioware didn't give that, so therefore Retake did not win.

[EvilMind]

I'm still trying to find "Artistic Integrity" in tali's photo image

[Selman 88]

No amount of clarification is going to make Casper the friendly ghost look like a good idea.

[MrWats0n]

Well said OP, I fully support you on this.

[incinerator950]

Taritu wrote...

Retake wanted a changed ending. Bioware didn't give that, so therefore Retake did not win.

I wanted to make a nice I told you so topic for everyone, but I was incredibly lazy, and almost felt bad for you people.

Seriously, my negativity senses are so hyper I can literally feel these events weeks in advance.  

[BadlyBrowned]

BARRAGE 74 wrote...

Only one thing left to do... Vote with your wallet.

[Nezzer]

I would really love if Forbes actually quoted this thread on an article :

[Athlonis1]

Agreed. Victory not achieved. Must continue the fight.

[Janus382]

Well said OP, as usual.

I have a small amount of hope that they will go above and beyond what they said (somehow) and actually salvage this whole thing (somehow), and meet all of their pre-release promises and quotes (somehow). Doubtful, of course.

Otherwise, yeah... we've lost. And they've made it easier for the media and "anti-anti-enders" to paint us in a negative light, because we apparently "got what we wanted". Fantastic.

[KingKhan03]

Well guys it's been a good ride but BioWare has failed us.

[aliengmr1]

The Angry One wrote...

aliengmr1 wrote...

We may not have won but we didn't lose either. That is fact. I'm upset but I am going to vote with my wallet. I won't let them turn us into the bad guys. Raging will do nothing.

We didn't lose TAO and you know it. Without us nothing would have happened.

To be honest I would've preferred nothing to this.
This just gives a lot of people ammunition to troll us, spam "Thank you BioWare!!!" threads and pretend everything's alright when it isn't.

I agree. We know its a bad ending. Objectively bad. The PR was worse. But we need not lose our heads. BW is protective of its ending, its their baby. The more we rage, the more stubborn they will be. We should ease up and hopefully the glaring faults with the ending will be seen. Snowballs chance in hell, I know, but we don't have much else.

[FierceReaper]

Janus382 wrote...

Well said OP, as usual.

I have a small amount of hope that they will go above and beyond what they said (somehow) and actually salvage this whole thing (somehow), and meet all of their pre-release promises and quotes (somehow). Doubtful, of course.

Otherwise, yeah... we've lost. And they've made it easier for the media and "anti-anti-enders" to paint us in a negative light, because we apparently "got what we wanted". Fantastic.

Unless they completely quash any disagreement and turn it into a PA whitewash, I'd like to see just what happens at PAX(eta: over this issue) before I strike BW off my list.

Modifié par FierceReaper, 05 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[Narby]

Completely agree. Also really sick of the overuse of autistic integrity...uh....artistic

[Mazandus]

I don't know how true (if at all) the leaked rumors are for "Mass Shift" and the "Terminator" DLC, but what I am sure is that there will be more Mass Something games, and that the ****ty ending of ME3 was constructed not to give a proper ending to ME1 through ME3, but to set up whatever the **** the next game is about.


My issue, and the reason I will certainly not be buying another BW/EA game until price/drop GOTY edition, if at all, is I liked the ME universe. The Salarians. The Krogan. The Citadel. Yes, ME is really just every popular Sci-fi from the past 2 decades thrown in a blender, but at least its SCI-FI. And whomever took all the time to write all the codex entries and write about the genophage and the Asari Samurai I mean Justicars and Commander Crichton and his connection with the Ancients, I mean Shepard and his connection with the Prothean VI's, was clearly a fan of all that inspired them. Which comes across in the games. Which makes the games good. I like all of it, and this is why ME2 is the pinnacle of this experience for me.

Yes the RPG parts were cut out, but it felt like playing through a season of a sci-fi show. (A kotaku writer made this point the other day) One mission you are stealing art from a party, another you are trying to stop an assassin, another you are trying to unravel what happened to the crew of a crashed ship, and so on.

Whatever failings in the main plot, for me, were acceptable, because of all the care and fun that was had in the rest, culminating in LoTSB, which I've said before on these forums is probably the best part of the whole franchise, gameplay and storytelling wise.

The ME3 ending, and indeed, large parts of ME3 have nothing to do with any of that. Space fishing for asset numbers, "side quests" which are just hackett telling you why you are playing multiplayer by yourself, along with token appearances by ME2 crew. (who, I am sorry ME1 fans, are waaaaaaay more interesting than the ME1 companions. Even if they are all stereotypes/archetypes.) Here they are relegated to cameo's, aside from EDI, who, and I don't want to go too deep here, but we all know how glaringly bad the ending is when the ONE SYNTHETIC we are exposed to for the entire game is not only THE PLAYER'S SHIP, but she is also helpful, loyal and wants to stop the Reapers. Regardless...

I am not interested in whatever half baked bad 90's Image comic plot whoever is in charge of these things is cooking up for Mass Something+. There's no coming back from ME3's ending. Relays gone, Citadel now a spike jutting out of the Earth's crust, (probable location) Sherpard/Star Child hybrid hunting down synthetics and AI's across the galaxy with Tricia Helfer heckling you the whole time. (while I doubt anyone in AAA games has the balls to do a game where the protagonist is not only the very thing he/she is destroying, but also being heckled/shamed/challenged by his/her other AI which is constantly reminding him/her that EDI and the Geth were good, I will admit that it is a pretty cool idea.) Also, we already saw BSG...and the whole organic/ship thing Moya...so...

And dont' get me started with Starchild. When Zeus does something at the end of a greek myth, the characters are often shocked, the audience isn't, because they knew that Zeus was there all along. Respect. Your. Audience.



Also, in regards to the "main theme" being organics vs synthetics. I just don't see it. I see it as a side theme. (for all of ME) But one that has a positive solution with Quarian and Geth harmony and also as a humorous coming of age romance with EDI and Joker. So how its the "main theme" of ME, I just don't see it. Which means the creators failed in conveying it. Or, (most likely) its not the "main theme" of ME, just the "main theme" of Casey Hudson. Who only took "FULL CONTROL" for ME3 & now M+.


In the end all we can do is vote with our wallets. I am definitely not waiting with baited breath though.Especially since all I can take from ME3 is:

Stay tuned for M+ &
HAHA ITS OUR UNIVERSE NOT YOURS STUPID USED GAME BUYING PEONS.

Modifié par Mazandus, 05 avril 2012 - 08:55 .

[Mr.Burke]

Guess I won't be buying any of the dlc then...

[Geomon19]

The Angry One wrote...

So basically BioWare intend to condescend to us, ignoring the promises made and the fact that the ending violates the themes of the rest of the game.
Exactly as I predicted, people are coming out and saying we should be happy, that we "won", that we'll never be satisfied. It's the worst of both worlds.
Let's go over some of the arguments made by ending supporters and BioWare.

"You got what you wanted and you're still complaining! Some people will never be happy!"
No. I haven't got what I wanted. I wanted endings that fit the tone and themes of the trilogy, that fit the character of Commander Shepard. Not an explanation or extention of the existing endings.
I know a lot of others feel the same way. If I go to a restaurant and order steak and they give me porridge, am I being unreasonable for pointing out that I did not, in fact, order porridge?

"The artistic vision of the Mass Effect team must be preserved!"
I actually agree. It's their vision and their game. But here's the thing. The ending is not their vision. The ending is the vision of one man, the lead writer, who wrote and implimented it without peer review.
The ending as it is completely destroys the artistic vision of the writing team. It contradicts it. It cheapens it. It makes it all irrelevant. Not only ME3, but the entire trilogy.
That's the real dangerous precident here. That we allow one person, who did not create the universe in the first place, to ultimately decide the fate of a team effort.

"The ending is good. It just needs explanation and clarification."
If your supposedly deep ending needs a handbook to go along with it, then it has failed.
If you admit your ending needs to be clarified, then it has failed.

"LOL did you seriously expect a new ending?"
Yes. Yes I did. And I will continue to do so, or I won't even bother with BioWare anymore.
The ending as it stands is not just bad. It's broken, and no amount of "clarification" will change that.
How will they clarify the Normandy for example? Add Shepard telling Joker to go? That solves nothing. Why? Because Shepard doesn't have the authority to do so, only Hackett does. That's just one problem out of DOZENS.

"Stop complaining. It's free!"
Many of us have stated we'd rather pay for a new ending, than keep the current one for free. This is a non-argument.

"Retakers have won, shut up already."
No, we haven't won. If this goes through then we have lost. Badly.
Some of you may gain satisfaction from this, and all I have to say to that is... I pity you. You would rather see fans driven off than have BioWare live up to it's potential greatness. You'd rather see BioWare slide into mediocrity than ever admit they're wrong. It is, simply, a shame.
We started this movement because we love and appreciate BioWare but it's becoming increasingly clear that BioWare doesn't appreciate itself.

+1

[RedTail F22]

I agree with OP. But I really dont see this getting better for us. With the announcement of free ending DLC they could have effectively split the Retake group and turned more supporters against us who still want a new ending. This uphill battle just got steeper

[Ares14916]

 I said this in another thread but it got buried so I'll say it again with more elaboration: 


Well Bioware/EA has won.

They picked the outcome that allows them to minimize the effort/cost on their part and maximize the return for them. By announcing vaguely an "extended" cut, which we have no idea what it contains, they have done the following: 

Defuse any major conflict/kerfuffle at PAX, as they can tell everyone "just wait until the extended cut," rendering those who are dissatisfied to look like whiners.

Splintered the retake movement between those content with the idea of the extended cut, those who will wait and see and those who think as stated in this thread that it is insufficient on face. CUE INFIGHTING!! And lo and behold the forums and /r/masseffect have errupted into said infighting - making holding out for a REAL ending almost impossible. Bioware saved their "artistic vision" all right...

Given themselves months more time before the controversy can even expect to flame up again, if it even does after such a long length of time and people finally reach acceptance and move on. Really, it has only been just under ONE MONTH since the game was released, yet already the fatigue was showing...this deflates the balloon significantly. 

By giving us the extended cut, AND making it free, they basically arm those pro-ending/anti-change with a 30mm GAU-8 gattling gun version of the "entitlement" argument to mow down any retakers who still hold the line in any media outlet; "You are getting your 'fixed' ending AND it is free! How darest thou complain futher you entitled harpies!!!!"

So yeah...I am 95% certain that the "extended cut" won't provide anything close to satisfactory for anyone who wanted a REAL ending that actually fit the ME trilogy.

My only hope is that, ensconed in the writers room, those charged with 'extending' the ending come out after many a failed attempt to polish the starchild-turd and simply throw up their hands exclaiming "The ONLY way we can hope to do any justice is to fix this!!!" THAT, barring a statistically unlikely resurgence of the retake movement upon release of the extended cut is probably the only way the ending gets fixed. 

So far all the reactions to the annoucement seem to imply that EA/Bioware has outmaneuvered us on this...and it's our fault for letting them. 

Reconstitute and hold the line...for the sake of the ME world we all enjoyed so much...

Modifié par Ares14916, 05 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Captiosus77]

Taritu wrote...

Retake wanted a changed ending. Bioware didn't give that, so therefore Retake did not win.

Actually, the problem with Retake is that it's made up of three separate groups:

Group 1 just wanted an epilogue. Something to fill in the plot holes because the ending was OK, to a point, but just too jarring.

Group 2 wanted choice to matter, even if that meant keeping the endings and expanding upon them. I fall into this group. To me, the bigger issue with the end of the game wasn't the plot holes or even the starchild, but rather that someone who never played any of the other games could power through just the story missions and get the same ending FMV, even if they only got the "Destroy" option, since all of them were mostly identical. The obliteration of player choice was what "killed" the franchise for me as we got to the 11th hour and just had the story line dictated to us like any average third person shooter.

Group 3 wanted the entire starchild sequence completely removed. I always knew that group was going to be disappointed because, while possible, it's too implausible. Logistically, programmatically.. just too implausible to be done. However, group 3 often had similar points with group 2, where player choice was a defining reason why they were displeased (to-wit, the fact that Shepard couldn't renegade interrupt the sequence and follow a different path, as has been done prior [in fact, I'd argue Shepard's entire story involves interrupting the possible to take a path everyone deemed [i]impossible[/i]]).

With this announcement, only the first group "wins". Those of us who wanted to see our choices matter, as we had been told time and time again would be the case, "lose". Those who wanted a full retcon of the starchild "lose" (but that doesn't surprise me in the least).

I don't want clarity. I want the defining trait of the franchise - choice - to make a difference. But it's clear, now, that won't be the case. The franchise has been nuked from orbit. Why, is anyone's guess. But I imagine future "Mass Effect" titles will be extremely light on RPG and Story elements and just a clone of every other third person shooter out there. Just set in space.