118 réponses à ce sujet

[Deviija]

lx_theo wrote...


What I hear is, "Take out a great and iconic feature because I just want to play old games again, rather than have the franchise evolve for the better."

Evolve for the better?  That's highly subjective.  

[lx_theo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
It is better for the game. It evolves it. I can't think of one possible upside to silent protagionists that can't be part of a voiced one with tweaks and evolving of the system already in place. Silent protagionist cannot emulate any of the big upsides voiced protagionists have.

And your acting like its the equivalent  to the voice acting for an entire game. Its just the player characters. The rest of the game still has all its voicing.There's still just as much writing. Do you really think they could add in any significant amoutn of content for what they spend recording the VO for the PC?

You're misusing the concept of evolution. Evolutionary changes favor characterstics that perform well. Simply being a change does not automatically imply an improvement, nor better performance. All that has been domonstrated thus far is that voicing the PC offers a change in presentation.

It has been commented, on several instances over time, by developers that voice acting for the PC is one of the larger expenses in a project. Specifically, this has been used as a justification for not including any alternate version of the PC besides male or female human.

Your PC seeming alive instead of a static character in the background is better. I've yet to hear one good argument for silent protagionist.

And I can see how doubling the expenses of something would make it not something they'd want to do when it addds very little to have two voices, but that doesn't show it being a bunch. Taking out the VOs for them has no proof of being enough to be significant in the final product.

[lx_theo]

Deviija wrote...

lx_theo wrote...


What I hear is, "Take out a great and iconic feature because I just want to play old games again, rather than have the franchise evolve for the better."

Evolve for the better?  That's highly subjective.  

I've yet to hear a good argument that can't be addressed in bettering the current Voiced system.

Subjective can be the same as stupidity or blind ignorance as well, mind you.

[freche]

Maria Caliban wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Size doesn't matter. It's the experience that matters.

When the size negatively affects the experience, it does matter.

For a story-based game, a small size positively affects the experience.

Totally agree, Legacy wasn't big but imo it is the best part of DA2 and one of the best parts in the entire serie.

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
I can't think of one possible upside to silent protagionists that can't be part of a voiced one with tweaks and evolving of the system already in place.

The very lack of voiced protagonist is an upside for some of the players. It's not something that "tweaks and evolving" can address.

And more directly, voicing the PC directly limits the amount of control the player has of the PC. Although it would be plausible to included a voiced PC that also allowed all the control and customization of a silent PC, the cost of voicing all the potential lines would be utterly prohibitive.

It has been demonstrated that voicing the PC creates a situation where you have only a few versions of the character, where you are then able to create a character that is based on some combination of only those few versions.

lx_theo wrote...
Your PC seeming alive instead of a static character in the background is better. I've yet to hear one good argument for silent protagionist.

Again, entirely subjective. I've found characters in 32bit games to be far more alive than many fully voiced characters. Shepard among them, for one.

You're leaving out the concept of "I." Almost all you've said about the good the voiced PC adds is based on things that you personally enjoyed.

lx_theo wrote...
Taking out the VOs for them has no proof of being enough to be significant in the final product.

The developers have commented on the expense of this. More than once. They've even talked about how it's significantly expensive in the development process.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 06 avril 2012 - 07:05 .

[CommanderBald]

I for one enjoy the silent protagonist. It allows me to figure out how my character sounds and talks, not the game.

[Deviija]

lx_theo wrote...

I've yet to hear a good argument that can't be addressed in bettering the current Voiced system.

Subjective can be the same as stupidity or blind ignorance as well, mind you.

Subjective is just personal preference.  

What do you purpose will 'better' the current voiced system that addresses the concerns of the voiced protagonist vs. silent protagonist? 

[aeonlifestream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kingdom of Alamur is an open-world game that's much smaller than Skyrim. I'd love to see that in a DA game.

This.

Skyrim was good, but none of your choices honestly had consequences in the end for the most part. It was basically only if you sided with the Stormcloaks or the Imperials, and even that really did not change anything. The quest lines were identical. Hell, completing the Dark Brotherhood questline and doing the Imperial stuff should not have worked, yet it did for some odd reason.

Plus the first person gameplay of the Elder Scrolls series does not really work in any RPG, in my opinion. Third person and isometric is basically the only way to go, which is what I'd like to see still in the next Dragon Age.

[Cultist]

Silent protagonist - saves $$$ for voice acting.
Allows players to associate protagonist with themselves, not some Hawke. So fisrt person vs third person aspect.
Appeals to players that may, otherwise find chosen voice annoying or unfitting etc.

[lx_theo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
I can't think of one possible upside to silent protagionists that can't be part of a voiced one with tweaks and evolving of the system already in place.

The very lack of voiced protagonist is an upside for some of the players. It's not something that "tweaks and evolving" can address.

And more directly, voicing the PC directly limits the amount of control the player has of the PC. Although it would be plausible to included a voiced PC that also allowed all the control and customization of a silent PC, the cost of voicing all the potential lines would be utterly prohibitive.

It has been demonstrated that voicing the PC creates a situation where you have only a few versions of the character, where you are then able to create a character that is based on some combination of only those few versions.

Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo. If you're being threatened, your character of not dealing with it well adn becoming aggressive can come out. Stuff like that is easy to do, and takes no more imagination than the pretending you have a certain inflection and such for a silent and such.

There being major limitations is ridculous, because its no more than it was before with the limited selection of dialogue choices. This perception that you can't do the same thing is wierd. I do it all the time when playing Bioware games, like DA2 or TOR.

[the_one_54321]

lx_theo wrote...
Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo. If you're being threatened, your character of not dealing with it well adn becoming aggressive can come out. Stuff like that is easy to do, and takes no more imagination than the pretending you have a certain inflection and such for a silent and such.

Oh, so it's perfectly reasonable to use your imagination to fix contradiction in the voice acting, but it's archaic to use your imagination when reading text dialog from a silent PC?

Once again, sounds to me like, "I just like it this way better."

[tmp7704]

lx_theo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It has been demonstrated that voicing the PC creates a situation where you have only a few versions of the character, where you are then able to create a character that is based on some combination of only those few versions.

Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo.

The tone system only allows the character to react in few provided ways in a situation. I.e. what you say is "doing it incredibly wrong" while at the same time praising it as the right way to go about it.

[lx_theo]

Deviija wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

I've yet to hear a good argument that can't be addressed in bettering the current Voiced system.

Subjective can be the same as stupidity or blind ignorance as well, mind you.

Subjective is just personal preference.  

What do you purpose will 'better' the current voiced system that addresses the concerns of the voiced protagonist vs. silent protagonist? 

People love to make opinions that ignore whats plainly in front of them... Its seen all the time on the Bioware forums especially.


As for what needs to be fixed? The intent needs to be better shwon in paraphrases, or maybe even a toggle for the paraphrase and full dialogue.

Another thingsthat needs to be fixed is how the atuodilogue works. It shouldn't simply be dominant tone, but the tone of how the PC reacts in certain types of situation should be tracked and used for it. That allows people to properly role-play with a voiced protagionist.

[lx_theo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo. If you're being threatened, your character of not dealing with it well adn becoming aggressive can come out. Stuff like that is easy to do, and takes no more imagination than the pretending you have a certain inflection and such for a silent and such.

Oh, so it's perfectly reasonable to use your imagination to fix contradiction in the voice acting, but it's archaic to use your imagination when reading text dialog from a silent PC?

Once again, sounds to me like, "I just like it this way better."

Imagination + Character that seems alive + More fluid and realistic conversations + more

>

Imagination

[tmp7704]

lx_theo wrote...

It shouldn't simply be dominant tone, but the tone of how the PC reacts in certain types of situation should be tracked and used for it.

Good luck with that.

a character acts:

a) aggresively towards person of opposite gender
friendly towards companions
c) sarcastically when talking about religion

go ahead, how does your game determine what tone to use when PC talks with companion of opposite gender about religion? Or even how does it pick up on these basic rules the player has defined for themselves/their character in the first place?

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[the_one_54321]

lx_theo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo. If you're being threatened, your character of not dealing with it well adn becoming aggressive can come out. Stuff like that is easy to do, and takes no more imagination than the pretending you have a certain inflection and such for a silent and such.

Oh, so it's perfectly reasonable to use your imagination to fix contradiction in the voice acting, but it's archaic to use your imagination when reading text dialog from a silent PC?

Once again, sounds to me like, "I just like it this way better."

Imagination + Character that seems alive + More fluid and realistic conversations + more > Imagination

Voiceless characters seem plenty alive. What is "more fluid and realistic?" You haven't created any kind of distinct definition for any of these concepts. You're just throwing words out as through they were justifications. Define what you're talking about.

On top of which, there are literally only 3, maybe 4 versions of Hawke. Again, literally. In each dialog choice, you pick between one of those versions and then use your own mental misdirection to create the illusion of character control. This is the a direct result of voicing the PC. Before the PC had a voice, creating many more dialog paths would have been significantly cheaper and easier to accomplish.

[lx_theo]

tmp7704 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It has been demonstrated that voicing the PC creates a situation where you have only a few versions of the character, where you are then able to create a character that is based on some combination of only those few versions.

Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo.

The tone system only allows the character to react in few provided ways in a situation. I.e. what you say is "doing it incredibly wrong" while at the same time praising it as the right way to go about it.

You obviously don't get what I'm saying.

I'm saying that you (or whoever I was quoting) was role-playing with VOs the wrong way. For some reason, even though people like you prasie the imagination side of the silent, you can do it for the same result in the voiced system. Yet you people seem ignore it.

As for limitation, Silent has the same limitation. It may allow one or so more options here and there, but it has the same limitations you all complain about.

[lx_theo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Then you're doing it incredibly wrong. Have you never tried to develop a character that reacts certain ways in certain situations? You know, like a real human being? That's why the tone system works so well, imo. If you're being threatened, your character of not dealing with it well adn becoming aggressive can come out. Stuff like that is easy to do, and takes no more imagination than the pretending you have a certain inflection and such for a silent and such.

Oh, so it's perfectly reasonable to use your imagination to fix contradiction in the voice acting, but it's archaic to use your imagination when reading text dialog from a silent PC?

Once again, sounds to me like, "I just like it this way better."

Imagination + Character that seems alive + More fluid and realistic conversations + more > Imagination

Voiceless characters seem plenty alive. What is "more fluid and realistic?" You haven't created any kind of distinct definition for any of these concepts. You're just throwing words out as through they were justifications. Define what you're talking about.

On top of which, there are literally only 3, maybe 4 versions of Hawke. Again, literally. In each dialog choice, you pick between one of those versions and then use your own mental misdirection to create the illusion of character control. This is the a direct result of voicing the PC. Before the PC had a voice, creating many more dialog paths would have been significantly cheaper and easier to accomplish.

You, sir, with all respect, need to work on your ciritcal thinking skills. Please pay attention to what i'm saying, because I've addressed most of these already. 

Voiceless characters do not seem alive. They are static in the background. How is that seem alive in any regard when compared to voiced protagionists?

Everyone talking makes more fluid and realistic conversations. Common sense much?

And like I've said, silent only provides 4 or so version of the character anyways. You can mix adn match to your character's personality with the three option in the dialogue wheel just as much as you can with the silent protagionist options.

Modifié par lx_theo, 06 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[tmp7704]

lx_theo wrote...

I'm saying that you (or whoever I was quoting) was role-playing with VOs the wrong way.

And i'm saying the person you were quoting wasn't talking about any specific way they'd personally "role-play with VO" but about limitations inherent to the tone system.

edit: regarding the limitations being the same with the silent protagonist -- this is rather obviously false, as people specifically state the lack of voiced protagonist allows them to come up with their own interpretation of the line where there's none. You don't get "your own interpretation where there's none" in situation where there actually is interpretation provided by the game.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[lx_theo]

tmp7704 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

I'm saying that you (or whoever I was quoting) was role-playing with VOs the wrong way.

And i'm saying the person you were quoting wasn't talking about any specific way they'd personally "role-play with VO" but about limitations inherent to the tone system.

And I EXPLAINED HOW THE LIMITATIONS ARE THE SAME.

Respond to my entire answer. If you choose to pick and choose parts, you are no better than sleeze-ball politicians.

[Deviija]

My version to 'fix' the current voiced protagonist system would be to a) add an option to allow for full text display instead of paraphrases, an option to turn off the voiced protagonist's voice only, and c) get rid of autodialogue altogether, particularly with banters that include the PC, and focus on making more interparty and companion-npc interactions instead. Or keep banters and instances where autodialogue would happen with the PC, but just zoom in/pause the scene and allow me to choose how my PC responds. Would that be clunky? Depends how it is utilized, but it (autodialogues) highlights the issue of voiced vs. silent PC to me.

Less control equals less roleplay freedom and enjoyment for me.

[tmp7704]

lx_theo wrote...

Respond to my entire answer. If you choose to pick and choose parts, you are no better than sleeze-ball politicians.

Sorry, the edit took me a while there. But in any case you can perfectly well address points on case by case basis. Doing otherwise is the same sort of dodging you accuse me of.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[the_one_54321]

lx_theo wrote...
You, sir, with all respect, need to work on your ciritcal thinking skills. Please pay attention to what i'm saying, because I've addressed most of these already.

Pfffhehehehe, really? Okay, I'll play along a little.

lx_theo wrote...
Voiceless characters do not seem alive. They are static in the background. How is that seem alive in any regard when compared to voiced protagionists?

Is that so? That's odd, because I remember a lot of entirely voiceless characters that seemed so alive to me. Like the character I played for several years on an NWN player world. Or lots of the PCs in RPGs that predated voice acting. I guess there must have been something wrong with my critical thinking to have been able to percieve these characters as being as alive as the voiced ones that are available now.

Obviously, this could not result from subjective enjoyment.

lx_theo wrote...
Everyone talking makes more fluid and realistic conversations. Common sense much?

What is a fluid conversation? My critical thinking isn't strong enough to understand what you're trying to say.

lx_theo wrote...
And like I've said, silent only provides 4 or so version of the character anyways.

Hmmm... I remember there being more than 4 or so in DA:O. It might be because I used my imagination to fill in the tone here and there. Obviously, I was playing the game wrong.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 06 avril 2012 - 07:33 .

[n2nw]

lx_theo wrote...

I'm saying that you (or whoever I was quoting) was role-playing with VOs the wrong way.

They're using their imagination the wrong way? I hate it when that happens.

lx_theo wrote...
For some reason, even though people like you prasie the imagination side of the silent, you can do it for the same result in the voiced system.

No, you really can't. When you have a voiced protagonist and paraphrased dialogues, you're living out someone else's imagination. The voiced PC says things in a way I would not and sometimes I choose dialogues that say something different than what I imagined they would be. That limits your development of your character to what the developers think it should be. You end up living out their idea of your PC. As I said earlier, that makes it you going along for the ride in their story instead of creating your own.

That doesn't mean that I can't use my imagination within that story, but it does limit it.

[Iosev]

I think this thread has been derailed, as the original post was about whether a new Dragon Age game could adopt a more open-world design for the environment, such as that seen in Skyrim. Can't we discuss the silent protagonist vs. voiced protagonist in a more appropriate thread?