354 réponses à ce sujet

[Keladis]

Immz wrote...

 To quote another user

So basically BioWare intend to condescend to us, ignoring the promises made and the fact that the ending violates the themes of the rest of the game.
Exactly as I predicted, people are coming out and saying we should be happy, that we "won", that we'll never be satisfied. It's the worst of both worlds.
Let's go over some of the arguments made by ending supporters and BioWare.

"You got what you wanted and you're still complaining! Some people will never be happy!"
No. I haven't got what I wanted. I wanted endings that fit the tone and themes of the trilogy, that fit the character of Commander Shepard. Not an explanation or extention of the existing endings.
I know a lot of others feel the same way. If I go to a restaurant and order steak and they give me porridge, am I being unreasonable for pointing out that I did not, in fact, order porridge?

"The artistic vision of the Mass Effect team must be preserved!"
I actually agree. It's their vision and their game. But here's the thing. The ending is not their vision. The ending is the vision of one man, the lead writer, who wrote and implimented it without peer review.
The ending as it is completely destroys the artistic vision of the writing team. It contradicts it. It cheapens it. It makes it all irrelevant. Not only ME3, but the entire trilogy.
That's the real dangerous precident here. That we allow one person, who did not create the universe in the first place, to ultimately decide the fate of a team effort.

"The ending is good. It just needs explanation and clarification."
If your supposedly deep ending needs a handbook to go along with it, then it has failed.
If you admit your ending needs to be clarified, then it has failed.

"LOL did you seriously expect a new ending?"
Yes. Yes I did. And I will continue to do so, or I won't even bother with BioWare anymore.
The ending as it stands is not just bad. It's broken, and no amount of "clarification" will change that.
How will they clarify the Normandy for example? Add Shepard telling Joker to go? That solves nothing. Why? Because Shepard doesn't have the authority to do so, only Hackett does. That's just one problem out of DOZENS.

"Stop complaining. It's free!"
Many of us have stated we'd rather pay for a new ending, than keep the current one for free. This is a non-argument.

"Retakers have won, shut up already."
No, we haven't won. If this goes through then we have lost. Badly.
Some of you may gain satisfaction from this, and all I have to say to that is... I pity you. You would rather see fans driven off than have BioWare live up to it's potential greatness. You'd rather see BioWare slide into mediocrity than ever admit they're wrong. It is, simply, a shame.
We started this movement because we love and appreciate BioWare but it's becoming increasingly clear that BioWare doesn't appreciate itself.

I agree 100% with The angry One's qoute.

We haven't won anything, we have been slapped across the face.
We didn't want added scenes that try to better explain the Crap that is Mass Effect 3's only ending. We wanted what BioWare promised multiple endings that changes depending on your choices.

Not one ending that varies on some minor things and goes totally against everything Shepard and his crew are and have been fighting for.

[AJRimmsey]

OozesAwesome wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Immz wrote...


I'm speaking in facts.

ME3 ending = Destroys ME lore entirely. Fact.
Bioware said they are not altering this ending in any way. Fact.
ME lore is ruined. Fact (Still with me?) Extended ending just elaborates on how the lore is ruined. Fact.
Therefore, this DLC serves no purpose than propogating the destruction of everything Mass Effect ever was. 

if you dont see how truly stupid what you typed is then you are more ignorant than even i gave you credit for.

you even comment on dlc you have not even seen yet,and it doesnt get any more ignorant than that

It is frustrating isn't it AJ? 

i decided to explain string theory to my 9 yr old daughter instead.

it`ll leave me with more hair and less stress

[Immz]

OozesAwesome wrote...

Immz wrote...

OozesAwesome wrote...

Immz wrote...

OozesAwesome wrote...

Immz wrote...

OozesAwesome wrote...

SLana wrote...

Immz wrote...

SLana wrote...

While I do not agree at some points with IT fans for example, those people made a lot of videos and writing to explain why they feel the way they feel about endings. A person who made the vid in my signature did great job explaining why he thinks endings are bad, without IT. But Ididn't see anything like that from people who liked endings. Just "why u no understand they are great" or "I like they are grim"...

Weird how that happens right? It makes you wonder whether these people even really like the ending.

They maybe like the ending, but I suppose they don't care much about details, logic and rules of science fiction.

Those that are comfortable with the ending are so because they understand the detail.  Logic and rules of science fiction are thrown out the window when someone's mind is being torn apart.

The detail is this....the Reapers use indoctrination to bend an organics will to their own.  The Reapers, in particular Harbinger, have been trying unsuccessfully to indoctrinate Shepard.  Who they realized is one of the most significant threats to their existance.

This is a story arc that needed to be addressed.  How come Shepard has been able to fight indoctrination up to this point when so many other organics, even Saren, have succumbed to it?  Had this not been addressed would have been a major plot hole in itself.

How Bioware dealt with this story arc is absolutely brilliant.  Since you control the actions of Shepard your mind had to make a choice.  You.  Two choices that you can make have you accepting that the Reapers should still exist.  One has you making the choice that the Reapers should be destroyed, which is what has been Shepards goal ever since he/she uncovered the Reaper threat.

The ending is a mind game.  The ending is playing with the players mind.  You don't sit passively by watching whether Shepard gets indoctrinated or not.  YOU make that choice.  The ending is astonishingly brilliant.

I watched 30 seconds of your video to conclude that the person that made the video doesn't understand the ending either.  Those that hate the ending beleive that what is playing out is happening in reality.  What is playing out is Shepards mind being torn apart by Harbinger.  Logic and reason no longer applies.  Have your dreams ever made sense when you woke up from them?

You have one right choice, and it is the most important decision of the series thus far.  Your Shepard either takes a breath in the rubble of London or not.  This ending clarification DLC will likely explain what happens next.

Immz you wanted me to enlighten?  Well there you go.

I'm done.

I should go.

Really?

Your reason why you like the ending, is because you believe in the Indoctrination Theory? You don't like the ending, so you used the IT to justify it. We all want it to happen, but still. Believing in the IT is another way of saying you dislike the ending they put in front of you. IT is all speculation.

Yeah, like I originally thought.  You're a waste of time....and oxygen.


I should go.

Thanks for the compliment. But I asked you why you liked the endings, and you claim that Bioware intentionally enacted the Indoctrination Theory, when in fact they did not. IT is a fan-made theory that helps justify and give meaning to the ending. I love the IT, because it makes the ending seem less ****. Regardless, you can't say "I love the endings!" and then follow up by explaining a string of speculated points that Bioware didn't intend to be there.

This is what I find funny. So people who hate the ending are calling for justice, and apparently people who like the ending aren't even accepting it for what it was! You reasoned liking the endings provided with your imagination and hopeful speculation.

You don't like the endings, you like the endings with the idea of Indoctrination, which makes it seem so clever and brilliant, but Bioware didn't put that there, fans did.


It's just, I'm sorry, it's hilarious, really. Because you said you "understood" the endings in a way we don't. I understand the Indoctrination Theory, and oh how I truly want it to be real. But if you didn't come on the internet and found the videos and posts explaining it, you would NOT have come to that conclusion. You don't "understand" the ending, you just believe in the Indoctrination Theory. 

I don't know how I can make it any more blunt.

You say you get the endings, when all you did was re-imagine the ending in your head and justified it saying Bioware meant it.

Oh go away you irritating little beast of burden.

Why? You justified liking the endings as is because you believe in the Indoctrination Theory. Bioware has made no indication that this theory is true, at all. What you saw in the ending is what Bioware intended to be real.

Despite how much we want it to be so, the IT will remain as a theory. Bioware wants us to understand that the ending we saw happened real time. Shepard really spoke to the star child. It's sad, and that's the path theyre sticking with. HENCE the outrage.

If you liked the endings for what they were, you wouldn't be speaking about the Indoctrination Theory. This is what I find funny. You don't like the endings the way they are now, you like what fans want it to be, because the alternative is too disgusting to accept.

And do me a favor, instead of just replying with "Lol u waste of space" just respond to what I said. Read it, and just get it. 

I really don't want to respond to you.  You're annoying.  How can I make this more clear?  Don't answer that please, I don't want to hear from you again but I liked the ending because of the Indoctrination story arc.  I don't need Bioware to confirm it for me.

Somehow you're telling me that in actuality I don't like the endings. WTF??  You're trying to come off as somewhat of an intellect but you're just making it worse.

As I said way back, get a life, it's a damn game.  Find some human beings to interact with instead of make believe characters in a role playing game.  One day you'll need to be a productive member of society.

Whether you think I'm annoying or not means nothing to me. I'm very productive, have a job, attend college, and am studying abroad next semester. I have a boyfriend, I work on an organic farm. There's nothing questionable about my character, so get over trying to insult me. I'm a normal person that contributes to society just as much as you, and you don't see me jumping down your throat about how big of a **** you are.

You justify liking these endings because of Indoctrination. Bioware JUST shut Indoctrination down by with this extended cut nonsense. IT only works with one of the three endings. This DLC will elaborate on all three respectively. So IT is out the window.

You speak down to people because you think they don't "understand". We do. We understand what the endings are and what Bioware wanted us to make of them. IT was a great theory, and I campaigned for it because believing that ME was ending the way it was without it is just horrible.

So go ahead, disregard my points and attack my character again. It's only a reflection on you.

[BurnOutBrighter]

Thanks. I have zero faith in BioWare now. Not after all the lies. Not after their wilful ignorance of their own fans and hiding behind the excuse of "artistic integrity" to justify how they ruined Mass Effect.

[Immz]

OozesAwesome wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Immz wrote...


I'm speaking in facts.

ME3 ending = Destroys ME lore entirely. Fact.
Bioware said they are not altering this ending in any way. Fact.
ME lore is ruined. Fact (Still with me?) Extended ending just elaborates on how the lore is ruined. Fact.
Therefore, this DLC serves no purpose than propogating the destruction of everything Mass Effect ever was. 

if you dont see how truly stupid what you typed is then you are more ignorant than even i gave you credit for.

you even comment on dlc you have not even seen yet,and it doesnt get any more ignorant than that

It is frustrating isn't it AJ? 

Not as frustrating as watching two people with no argument stumble around thinking that attacking my character is the best course of action.

And I'm going to clarify one last time to you. We asked you to defend why you like the endings. You defended the Indoctrination Theory. Not the actual ending.

Modifié par Immz, 06 avril 2012 - 03:38 .

[Chapity]

Wow, just wow. Dudes, there are girls and beer and fun things to do. All you gotta do is turn off the computer. Nit forever, just awhile. I liked the endings myself, and I will go so far to say that a)the dreams are indoctrination, thats why the kid looks like that, c) believing that all is lost without the relays is like saying everyone in the lore is dumb and it can't be solved or rebuilt (ie...Sequel!!!!), d) the game is loaded with solvency on the aftermath (listen to traynor and...there you go), e) I too didn't like planet lost but it did give me the scene of joker and edi kicking it synergy style. How they got there.....yeah no good.

[AJRimmsey]

Immz wrote...

OozesAwesome wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Immz wrote...


I'm speaking in facts.

ME3 ending = Destroys ME lore entirely. Fact.
Bioware said they are not altering this ending in any way. Fact.
ME lore is ruined. Fact (Still with me?) Extended ending just elaborates on how the lore is ruined. Fact.
Therefore, this DLC serves no purpose than propogating the destruction of everything Mass Effect ever was. 

if you dont see how truly stupid what you typed is then you are more ignorant than even i gave you credit for.

you even comment on dlc you have not even seen yet,and it doesnt get any more ignorant than that

It is frustrating isn't it AJ? 

Not as frustrating as watching two people with no argument stumble around thinking that attacking my character is the best course of action.

And I'm going to clarify one last time to you. We asked you to defend why you like the endings. You defended the Indoctrination Theory. Not the actual ending.

there you go again

"we asked you to defend"
we ? > who is we ?
defend ? > so you are attacking ?

and "no arguement" ????
you admitted a few pages back you have no opinions and are just reguritating other peoples points ?

you REALLY need to proof read before hitting that post button.

[Kaizerzero2]

Darkeus wrote...

To the OP:

Dude, I hate the endings.

I have seen that EA/Bioware has no capacity or no desire to listen to their fans. The Bioware of the past is gone and replaced with this shell of a company that is only concerned about the bottom line. They do not care about their fans anymore, just their wallets.

So yeah, the best way you can tell EA/Bioware that you are displeased with them is to attack them in the only place they care about, their bottom line. Yes, that means giving up the 100+ hours you put into the series. I will be doing that exact same thing.

They will not realize how much they screwed up until the money stops flowing. How do you get the money to stop flowing? Stop supporting their games, stop your friends from buying their games. They don't care if you keep protesting these endings, they do not care if you continue to come on this forum and protest.

They only care if they can't get future sales from you. You have to put your money where your mouth is.

Yet, those burned on DA2 came right on back after they said they would never buy another Bioware game again. Same thing will happen again when they announce / release DA3. The hooks are too deep in some fans and they will buy & defend this and other titles regardness of its faults.

This is the 2nd game that Dr. Ray has had to make a statement about. Isn't it time to stop "polarizing" the core fan base?

[CELL55]

Immz wrote...

CELL55 wrote...

We don't need to be told what happens, because we already have a pretty good idea of it. If the Relays explode like the Alpha Relay, then everyone dies. If they don't, then everyone is cut off, and they either starve to death or lack sufficient numbers to sustain a population. Quick death or a long one, we already know what will happen; we don't need a closure DLC to tell us.

Which is why everyone is pissed.

We worked through three games of choices and tough calls and sacrifices for nothing. If we betrayed Tali or Legion or united them it doesn't matter. Relays blew up, everyone is dead. The lore states so.

But no, according to tweets, space magic will render these explosions 'controlled' and they can be 'rebuilt' somehow.

It's all so ridiculous.

Then why blow them up in the first place?!

Anyway this all reminds me of this: 
http://shannon.users...net/masseffect/ 
It's an interactive fanfic that actually takes your choices into account. It takes place after whatever color choice you made, but it's still better written than what we got.

[Yalision]

I have been one of the most vocal among us, working alongside Sam (LoganKey) to run the cupcake campaign, I was the first responder on a few controversial tweets, I immediately rallied behind the Child's Play charity, and have continued to work toward a change to what a lackluster ending we were given.

That said, I am happy and as content as one can be with this announcement after all the drama. I never specifically asked for new endings, but this clarification will hopefully deliver to me the answers I need. The most pressing are, how did my squad get on the Normandy, what happened to the fleet, and what happened to my friends? Beyond that I don't even need much more, everything else would be icing on the cake. Have I forgiven Bioware?

No. It helps that the DLC is free, but I am skeptical until the final release. This will make or break me with Bioware, but I am happy that they are doing this, even if their egos are terribly inflated with the outright refusal of change. This is equal parts art and consumer product, it isn't some untouchable divinity from a bygone era. Anyway, I'm open to compromise. We'll see how this does. I'm happy - for now.

[Chapity]

The "lore" shows that a relay hit by an asteroid and and the energy is released destroys a system. The game showed the relay powering up and firing all it's energy and being destroyed. Did you miss that? And as for the no one survives stuff, they have tech that a) allows for ftl biotics c) rendering mass as heavier or lighter d) omnitools e) city sized spacestations f) dextro amino food cultivation on f) starships but, they are just too dumb to solve the problem of surival? Sex and seed planting sounds bout right to me. Go get a beer and relax. The world didn't end because you read some blog or watched some video by a self proclaimed genius who tells you how it's all just dumb. Want to wrap your head around something? If man was created in gods image and man is dumb, then god is dumb, and a little ugly too.

[hitorihanzo]

Here's what I see: thousands of people raged at BioWare to change the endings. They said "No, but we will clarify them." This after all the turmoil on the boards and Twitter, and after all the bad PR. At this point... It's over guys/ ladies. There is nothing you can say that will change BW's minds. If you send Bagels instead of cupcakes this time, the answer will still be the same. All the rage threads like these are basically like farts now: superfluous stink that will go away in a few minutes.

I hate to say that because I think BW screwed the pooch on this one, and I honestly cared about new endings... until a REAL problem bit me in the ass and showed me how insignificant this situation really is.

[Deganis76]

Why concern yourself with the ending when the actual game itself was so good?

To quote my favorite author:

My own experience is that once a story has been written, one has to cross out the beginning and the end. It is there that we authors do most of our lying.”
― Anton Chekhov

[Deganis76]

Error post

Modifié par Deganis76, 06 avril 2012 - 05:06 .

[MikoDoll]

Kris69 wrote...

And there's nothing you can do about it. BW is listening to us, but they won't give us what we want. Deal with it.

No that's what we call hearing (or seeing). A person can hear you but that doesn't mean they're going to listen.

[MikoDoll]

Chapity wrote...

Wow, just wow. Dudes, there are girls and beer and fun things to do.

I'm getting tired of this. I'm sick of hearing all the moaning about how this game is "art" and then rather then treat it as such it's a simple peice of hardware unrelated to aesthetic and storyelling. Any artistic quality is so reduced that pepole would suggest such mature hobbies such as getting drunk. It's as for it being art,  I think it probably could be. But Bioware said the fans were co creators of that art. So it's only natural that they feel compelled to have a say in the "masterpiece" that is ME3. Therefore it seems irrelevant to me to excuse Bioware on such grounds.

Nit forever, just awhile. I liked the endings myself, 

No wonder you seem so capable of talking down.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 06 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[Chapity]

I'm not talking down to anyone bud. I am suggesting that your passion may stem from a lack of anything else. Cooler heads prevail when we realize we aren't geniuses who somehow know what art or creativity is supposed to be when it isn't tangible. I been writing music for fifteen years and to this day I couldn't really tell what that entails. I even got a degree in it and apart from describing what I wrote in a jargon more akin to math than I can easily explain, I can tell you that I use not one bit of theory to write music other than when I get stuck and need some guidance on where to go. Is a video game art? This has been beaten like a red head without father for a while but I will tell you that a lot of artist poured there efforts into it. I would call a video game an experience, which is why you and your ending hater breatherin are so in arms because it took you somewhere you didn't want to go. For some it's the lack of closure (which I don't get because this story is far from over. For some it's the "plot holes" which I believe again stems from the "I'm smarter than you" set. Then there are those that just jumped on the bandwagon, and most of them want you to explain yourself when really any answer you seek is evident within the narrative if your paying attention and not just rushing into the next combat situation. I am not here to judge why anyone likes or dislikes. I have my take and I can defend it. You have yours and choose to call me a troll and condescending for not only liking the ending but for suggesting going out and having fun. This can't be fun for you is it? Oh, and having a beer doesnt constitute drunk. I have one or two a week, I am way past the 100 dollar bar tab brother. I take it you haven't gotten that far or that you never had a 100 bar tab. A little defensive.

[DarthTempus]

Its funny, all I see is a bunch of arguing over the ending. Bioware can't do everything right people.
They are only human after all.

[Kanner]

All the evidence re: the ending you need is in this thread.

No-one can say why it is good. Just that 'they personally like it', 'broad themes in sci-fi are nice', 'it's bioware's decision and you *can't* critise it', 'endings don't matter', 'people shouldn't get upset about a game', and of course 'art doesn't have to make sense and can't be changed.'

There is NOTHING ANYWHERE about why the ending is FUN, how it fits with the rest of the series, or indeed about what an amazing level it was and how it felt to take down that final villian. Y'know, actual game stuff that would be interesting to talk about.

If the end of a game can only be justified by explaining why you don't have to justify it and why it shouldn't be talked about, that's a disaster.

All I can say it that the die is now cast and we can only see where it goes from here. It's literally a numbers game now. One opinion is just that - one opinion. It'll be measured in future sales, for good or for ill.

[Edrick1976]

GREAT Post their OP thats why I am big supporter of HOLD THE WALLET!!!!! This is the ONLY way we can get them to take us serious.

[Faust1979]

quit crying

[Kanner]

Faust1979 wrote...

quit crying

NO U.

[Plageon]

Anybody want a game that will be made for the fans and give you choices that matter? the head on over to kickstarter and donate to Brian Fargo's wasteland 2! This man actually asks our opinion on HOW TO MAKE THE GAME! Show Bioware that money goes to those that deliver a promised product.

[Dragoonlordz]

Immz wrote...

I don't believe you comprehend what's happened.

-snip-

Don't like their products? Go buy different ones. Problem solved.

They did not make it for you, they did not make it for any individuals. They made something the way the wanted and hoped people might like it, some do and some don't; thats life. Deal with it. EA wants to make money (they have done as sales seem very good overall), Bioware wanted to create a story, their story of which they did and told it how they wanted to tell it; you just chose to be along for the trip.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 avril 2012 - 03:47 .

[Plageon]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Immz wrote...

I don't believe you comprehend what's happened.

-snip-

Don't like their products? Go buy different ones. Problem solved.

They did not make it for you, they did not make it for any individuals. They made something the way the wanted and hoped people might like it, some do and some don't; thats life. Deal with it. EA wants to make money (they have done as sales seem very good overall), Bioware wanted to create a story, their story of which they did and told it how they wanted to tell it.

And every pregame interview and quote said EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE THING, they promised us our story would continue with our decisions effecting the outcome. If I hear art one more time im gonna **** a brick.