118 réponses à ce sujet

[Kuravid]

Throughout the game, you are given several options to dismiss belief in The Maker, while you are also offered dialogues involving details, stories and lore about the religions of others who occupy Fereldan or the world (such as the dwarves, the Qun and the Old Gods). What I am curious about, and I profess to know little about the subject because I haven't read a lot of the codex, is it stated anywhere in the lore that the Maker, the Old Gods, whatever, is fact? Or is it possible that Fereldan is simply a realm where magic and monsters exists that can be explained in some Fereldan-ish scientific way? And that the Maker and all the other religions are simply myth? Is it possible that they are going to somehow leave this whole religion thing open ended and never really give some solid answers about it (I know that no one can really answer this last question, I'm just curious about what people think)?

Honestly, I don't know and I'm highly skeptical. With the whole Chantry religion, for example, there seems to be a dogmatic way to approach it (such as the ones suggested by Chantry priests) and then a slightly, though less commonly encountered, kind-of Gnostic, impersonal way to approach it (even Wynne mentions that the Black City could possibly be nothing other than allegory, and Niall offers the explanation "they say we return to the Maker when we die" which to me doesn't remind me of a kind of heaven, but of an impersonal god like that which is more common in eastern religions).

Of course, I don't know the lore very well, so I can't form any detailed opinions about this. So, I'm curious, is it possible that, for example, the dragons are not really old gods but just dragons with magic and people just like to think that they're gods? That the Maker is nothing other than myth, and that Andraste's ashes hold a healing power that is not fanciful but of something else that can be explained? That the taint is really just a kind of poison that turns you into some deformed, violent human-like zombie thing? Does religion in Fereldan solely exist on faith and will it always? Is there anything in the lore that suggests this?

[Taleroth]

The setting is explicitly designed so that the existance of gods is to be reasonably questioned and unverifiable. Which is why no gods are active. The closest we have are the Old Gods, which can easily be denounced as mere idols.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

The fact that the Darkspawn have Broodmothers and such really points in the favour of them being a "true race" other than some divine punishment that just randomly pop out of the soil. And yes, beings as powerful as Dragons do appear to be godlike in power in comparison to humanoids, don't they...



I'm also drawing a parallel between Andraste and Jean D'arc. That they were great military people, gathering followers to do battle and win many victories is essentially true. However, who's to say this is because of divine intervention?

[Sarethus]

Taleroth wrote...

The setting is explicitly designed so that the existance of gods is to be reasonably questioned and unverifiable. Which is why no gods are active. The closest we have are the Old Gods, which can easily be denounced as mere idols.

This is also the reason why there are no true clerics or 'priests who can heal' in the game. The developers and writers wanted to imply that so & so religion might be true but at the same time not say definatly that a religion was true.

Before someone brings up the Ashes, if you take Oghren into that chamber he will state that there is a very large deposit of Lyrium present in the cave which could have affected everything over time. Also there was some implication that Andraste was a mage to some degree in some books if I remember correctly. 

[LdyShayna]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

The fact that the Darkspawn have Broodmothers and such really points in the favour of them being a "true race" other than some divine punishment that just randomly pop out of the soil. And yes, beings as powerful as Dragons do appear to be godlike in power in comparison to humanoids, don't they...

I would point out that the broodmother is explicitly revealed in the game to be a female of another species deformed and tainted and turned into a darkspawn producing horror.  That undercuts this as proof, IMO.

[izmirtheastarach]

Based on David Gaider's replies in these forums, I would point out that the codex is generally based on belief rather then hard fact.

[Kuravid]

Taleroth wrote...

The setting is explicitly designed so that the existance of gods is to be reasonably questioned and unverifiable. Which is why no gods are active. The closest we have are the Old Gods, which can easily be denounced as mere idols.

Well then, that's really a nice touch. I got this impression throughout my playthroughs, I just wasn't really sure if that's what was intended. I thought "hmm, maybe by dismissing all of this religious stuff, you're just turning your character into a bigger ass, and you're actually supposed to take this Chantry/Old God stuff seriously"

I actually denied Morrigan's baby offer the first time around not because I was afraid of unleashing a demon baby into the world, but because I thought her offer sounded completely ridiculous. Like, really? Dragon gods? That sounds like all kinds of schizophrenia to me.

[Bannor Bloodfist]

everything in this game is designed to not point fingers, to not profess religion(s) etc, strictly as a legalistic way of avoiding conflict with specific real world religious sects etc... It is also being kept from becoming a primary focus of anything as it might, just possibly, step on copyrights to other games, developers, concepts etc.



Allegories everywhere you turn. Almost every dialog between party members can lead to some sort of innuendo, straight or gay or both...



At first, I thought 'Sten' was doing a pretty good job of knocking religious beliefs of others, and I thought he was doing it more as a realist than anything else... until he starts going on about the Qunari religion somewhere along the line.



Most folks expect some sort of religious context to fantasy worlds, thanks in large part to Wizard's of the Coast and D&D.



My opinion is that they are making allegories to religions just to keep those expectations in players satisfied, while deliberately NOT trying to make it a somehow stronger motivation for world actions.

[SilkyChicken]

The thread is a redux of Morrigan and Leliana on the bridge in Lothering. Just reload your game to their and walk back and forth the conversation node a few times. The Make foresaw your questions and provided.

[Valmy]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

The fact that the Darkspawn have Broodmothers and such really points in the favour of them being a "true race" other than some divine punishment that just randomly pop out of the soil.

Um...the religion says the Darkspawn were corrupted wizards...and since they make Broodmothers by corrupting females of other species they clearly can only reproduce via that corruption that seems to make it impossible they are a true race.  Rather it points in favour of them being some divine punishment.

[Kuravid]

LdyShayna wrote...

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

The fact that the Darkspawn have Broodmothers and such really points in the favour of them being a "true race" other than some divine punishment that just randomly pop out of the soil. And yes, beings as powerful as Dragons do appear to be godlike in power in comparison to humanoids, don't they...

I would point out that the broodmother is explicitly revealed in the game to be a female of another species deformed and tainted and turned into a darkspawn producing horror.  That undercuts this as proof, IMO.

Ah, I see, I didn't even think of that, even after I had read the codex about the broodmother bit. 

[Ulrik the Slayer]

LdyShayna wrote...

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

The fact that the Darkspawn have Broodmothers and such really points in the favour of them being a "true race" other than some divine punishment that just randomly pop out of the soil. And yes, beings as powerful as Dragons do appear to be godlike in power in comparison to humanoids, don't they...

I would point out that the broodmother is explicitly revealed in the game to be a female of another species deformed and tainted and turned into a darkspawn producing horror.  That undercuts this as proof, IMO.

So? Then they are parasites, of sorts.

[izmirtheastarach]

Valmy wrote...

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

The fact that the Darkspawn have Broodmothers and such really points in the favour of them being a "true race" other than some divine punishment that just randomly pop out of the soil.

Um...the religion says the Darkspawn were corrupted wizards...and since they make Broodmothers by corrupting females of other species they clearly can only reproduce via that corruption that seems to make it impossible they are a true race.  Rather it points in favour of them being some divine punishment.

Or just some blood magic gone wrong. Doesn't need to be devine to explain that.

[Kuravid]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

everything in this game is designed to not point fingers, to not profess religion(s) etc, strictly as a legalistic way of avoiding conflict with specific real world religious sects etc... It is also being kept from becoming a primary focus of anything as it might, just possibly, step on copyrights to other games, developers, concepts etc.

I can understand reasons to avoid conflict by possibly offending real world religions, but the similarities between, for example, Catholicism and the Chantry are pretty obvious (with the exception of female priests, cremation, etc), as are the similarities between the Dwarven religion and Confucianism and the caste system in India. Not exact parallels, but when you think about them, that is usually what comes to mind (or my mind, at least). I thought they were mostly trying to offer fantasy alternatives to real world religions, and that they are deliberately trying to keep religion open ended in the game not because they are wary of offending anyone, but because it adds depth to the story and the way you play it. 

[Recidiva]

I think it may be a world without Gods, but with Magic, and powerful healing magic at that. With the level of skill and craftsmanship and dedication that her followers took on to follow her example, some of them in fact killing themselves to protect her remains, it seems perfectly reasonable to assume some of those talented followers imbued her ashes with special powers, or that she herself was so imbued with healing magic that her ashes themselves aren't divine, but are an expression of the good she intended, even after death.



It also makes it particularly logical in that case to poison them and have that be a faith-destroying, horrifying act.



Faith is a powerful factor in the world, and it's not unreasonable to think many used their faith to further their cause by magical means or that in a world with magic, Andraste's power imbued her remains as it imbued her when she was alive.



So I prefer to interpret it that way.

[LdyShayna]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
So? Then they are parasites, of sorts.

My point was that there are, apparently, no naturally occuring female of the "species".  Indeed, that the broodmothers are quite explicitly NOT naturally ocurring says to me that the existence of broodmothers cannot be used as proof that they are a "true race" in any way.  It does not prove that they are a divine punishment either, but I would say it is not a given either way.

And yes, before release the devs explicitly said that they made it impossible to know The Truth about the religions, because they felt that the existence of faith and differences in interpretation were powerful elements of the setting.  They went out of their way to make sure there was no absolutely irrefutable evidence for any of these various interpretations.  At least, that was their intention across the board.


 

[Felene]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
I'm also drawing a parallel between Andraste and Jean D'arc. That they were great military people, gathering followers to do battle and win many victories is essentially true. However, who's to say this is because of divine intervention?

I thought of that as well.
But Andraste's ash has healing power just smack that thought right out of me.
How can a woman's remain posses such power? Even with lyrium present and Andraste might be a mage.

But still, I am all for Maker is made not born theory.
Call me stubborn.

Modifié par Felene, 03 décembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[RunCDFirst]

There sounds like a lot of wavering faith in this thread. Do I have to call in the Templars my brothers and sisters?<_<

[Varenus Luckmann]

Felene wrote...
[...]

But Andraste's ash has healing power just smack that thought right out of me.
How can a woman's remain posses such power?

Magic? Lyrium Infusion? Spirits? Demons?

We've been over this a couple of times, but sufficient to say is that there could be many explanations.

[Recidiva]

RunCDFirst wrote...

There sounds like a lot of wavering faith in this thread. Do I have to call in the Templars my brothers and sisters?<_<

I'm a Dalish elf.  Bring it.

[Valmy]

izmirtheastarach wrote...
Or just some blood magic gone wrong. Doesn't need to be devine to explain that.

I didn't say it was conclusive evidence, only evidence in favor of.

The Maker may not exist at all after all.  The Chantry has no magical powers or anything.

[Valmy]

Recidiva wrote...
I'm a Dalish elf.  Bring it.

Then you should thank Andraste for your freedom and stop attacking our settlements or we shall march on you again

[Valmy]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
So? Then they are parasites, of sorts.

So?  So it doesn't disprove anything about their divine origin which sorta destroys your entire point.  It doesn't necessarily mean they absolutely are divinely created but the existance of the Broodmothers doesn't, in itself, prove they are a true race.

[Felene]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Magic? Lyrium Infusion? Spirits? Demons?
We've been over this a couple of times, but sufficient to say is that there could be many explanations.

I am all for Chantry is religion not fact.

But how can a woman's remain posses such power? Even with lyrium present and Andraste might be a mage possibility.

I think Maker may exist and live in Fade, but he is only a powerful spirit who possessed Andraste like Wynne's case.

Not a all-powerful-creater Chantry state.

And Andraste just happen to be a goodie-two-shoes like Jean D'arc who thinks the Tevinter Imperium mages are abusing thier power and needs to stop.

Modifié par Felene, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:26 .

[Recidiva]

Valmy wrote...

Then you should thank Andraste for your freedom and stop attacking our settlements or we shall march on you again

Or...thank my bow and how many people it's brought down with similar attitudes.