118 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kuravid wrote...
Islam is not an appropriate topic for this particular post, being that, it is a sensitive subject that can basically ignite a forum fire.  Having made that clear, I already stated above in this post that I am not entirely familiar with the various religions of Dragon Age, and was simply speculating.

In regards to the Qunari being an advanced culture in what seems like the middle ages, and their eagerness to wage war and convert the non-Qun into Qun, I simply got the impression that the Qunari were somehow inspired by medieval Islamic culture.

Just thought I would say what I have in mind, as many people seem to think that the Qun and Islam are the same, theologically wise.

But politically, yes, the Qun seem to be inspired by the Islamic Caliphates, except the Muslims did not throw those who did not convert into prison and labor camps, as that is opposed to their rules of war.  

[happyelf]

I think it's good that the qun have the prison camps, because otherwise people would idealise them too much. As it is, they're interesting, but clearly not idealist in any sense, and add a pretty rough edge to the themes they're based on, much like the other tropes in dragon age.

[Rhys Cordelle]

What's wrong with him explaining Islamic beliefs? It's relevant to the discussion and it's not being done in a judgmental way.

[Kuravid]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

What's wrong with him explaining Islamic beliefs? It's relevant to the discussion and it's not being done in a judgmental way.

It's not wrong, it's just that he's making several claims that could lead to very detailed, heated arguments on the subject of Islam. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Recidiva wrote...

I think it may be a world without Gods, but with Magic, and powerful healing magic at that. With the level of skill and craftsmanship and dedication that her followers took on to follow her example, some of them in fact killing themselves to protect her remains, it seems perfectly reasonable to assume some of those talented followers imbued her ashes with special powers, or that she herself was so imbued with healing magic that her ashes themselves aren't divine, but are an expression of the good she intended, even after death.

It also makes it particularly logical in that case to poison them and have that be a faith-destroying, horrifying act.

Faith is a powerful factor in the world, and it's not unreasonable to think many used their faith to further their cause by magical means or that in a world with magic, Andraste's power imbued her remains as it imbued her when she was alive.

So I prefer to interpret it that way.

Hmmmm...do we have any in-game confirmation that the remains of powerfull amges are magica lthemselves? Any example? If not, than Andraste's remains being magical while no other are, doesn't make hte "powerfull mage" theroy sound good.
Some think it's the Lyrium, but again, I've not heard no example of thigns becoming magical simply because lyrium is near. Templars chug that stuff on a regular basis. When they die, are their bones magical?

[Original182]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Hmmmm...do we have any in-game confirmation that the remains of powerfull amges are magica lthemselves? Any example? If not, than Andraste's remains being magical while no other are, doesn't make hte "powerfull mage" theroy sound good.
Some think it's the Lyrium, but again, I've not heard no example of thigns becoming magical simply because lyrium is near. Templars chug that stuff on a regular basis. When they die, are their bones magical?

The problem here is that people believe what they want to believe in.
For example, there are a few posts claiming that Andraste was a powerful mage, but the only evidence I see of that is a gift that you could give to Wynne. So based on that minor shred of evidence, they believe that Andraste was not a prophet of the Maker, but just a powerful mage.
They believe that one tiny book, but not the Chantry. The thought that maybe that book was forged by a mage never occured to them. But they readily distrust the Chantry's words simply because they are the Chantry.

[Statulos]

Why is that different than beliving the Chantry is right because it is the Chantry?



In fact, the conversion of the Tevinter magi is a clear symbol of "oh, fine, we embrace your thing and you stop sending exhalted marches to the remains of my empire".

[Original182]

Statulos wrote...
Why is that different than beliving the Chantry is right because it is the Chantry?

It's not. You cannot accuse the Chantry of being wrong, then use that "Andraste is mage" book to counter the Chantry's beliefs in the same post. It's contradictory. You have to use other proof.

If you cannot prove that Andraste was really a mage, then you have no right to say the Chantry is wrong. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're wrong. But to say that the Chantry is wrong based on no real proof, is as arrogant as saying the Chantry's words are automatically correct.

In fact, the conversion of the Tevinter magi is a clear symbol of "oh, fine, we embrace your thing and you stop sending exhalted marches to the remains of my empire".

If you are talking about that man who mercifully gave Andraste a quick death, it is said that he had a religious experience and believed in the Maker. And yes, there are also some reports saying he did that just to prevent more Exalted Marches.

So which one is true? If you take the stance that the Codex may not be facts but are biased accounts of personal views, then we'll never know. But here you almost seem to consider it a fact, only because it makes sense to you.

[Vanatos]

The Qun is mostly mystical eastern themed (as in their peaceful, pacifistic in personality) but militant Islam in their relation to other cultures (aggressive expansionist).

Chantry is pretty much Christianity except God has abandoned the world.

Circle of Magi is probably most Agnostic in the sense they approach any mystical matter in a rational sense rather then looking for religion.

Dwarf society is a different kind of religious, its more like venerating real people till they become mythical rather then flat out worshipping a divine being(s) from the beginning, i dunno if the stone would qualify as worship as they dont actually worship it and even admit it has bad corrupted parts (gangue shade).

Elves seem to be traditional paganistic, i sorta wish they would put a new spin on it and make them (or at least the original elven culture) dark nature worship(like wood elves from warhammer).

Modifié par Vanatos, 04 décembre 2009 - 08:51 .

[Statulos]

I´m not talking about the Archon Valerius (the executioner who mercy-killed Andraste); but about the magister of Tevinter.



The problem with the lore about Tevinter is that we know that the Archon used to be the head of the magisters but now, there is no clear description of how the goverment works; if they have an emperor, a council or what.



On the other hand, the Chantry of Tevinter is not the same as the Chantry in the rest of Thedas: in Tevinter there is a male Divine who does not recognize the one in Val Royeaux (basicaly a real world Rome-Constantinople split Church).



Still, the argument about the conversion I gave you has nothing to do with the what Archon Valerius did: the exalted marches against Tevinter happened quite long after his death. In fact, the official conversion of Tevinter to the Maker´s faith came quite long after Andraste´s death.



On the other hand, we can also consider Andraste as a political oportunist who used the weekend state of Tevinter Imperium after the first Blith to get political independence from them. In that sense, there is no knowledge about the Maker before Andraste and it is very possible that she basicaly made the whole thing just to contradict the oficial faith of Tevinter given to the Old Gods.

[Vanatos]

Kuravid wrote...

It's not wrong, it's just that he's making several claims that could lead to very detailed, heated arguments on the subject of Islam. 

No he has it completely right, as i have read the Quran, Hadith and various other material on Islam.

The only thing one might dispute is Islam's view of Christianity, which at times views them as simply misguided, other times as traitors and insulters to God (being considering them as corrupting the original pure religion given by God).

[Statulos]

Vanatos wrote...

The Qun is mostly mystical eastern themed (as in their peaceful, pacifistic in personality) but militant Islam in their relation to other cultures (aggressive expansionist).

Chantry is pretty much Christianity except God has abandoned the world.

Circle of Magi is probably most Agnostic in the sense they approach any mystical matter in a rational sense rather then looking for religion.

Dwarf society is a different kind of religious, its more like venerating real people till they become mythical rather then flat out worshipping a divine being(s) from the beginning, i dunno if the stone would qualify as worship as they dont actually worship it and even admit it has bad corrupted parts (gangue shade).

Elves seem to be traditional paganistic, i sorta wish they would put a new spin on it and make them (or at least the original elven culture) dark nature worship(like wood elves from warhammer).

To me, the Qun reminds me a lot of Taoism and even more of the idea of Dharma in both Hinduism and Buddhism; particularly the one of Theravada tradition. Sten insists very often in the importance of duty and how dispasionate qunari are in their activities.

Elves remind me a lot from various mythological cycles, namely several Native American accounts (here the trickster is a wolf, where in Native American myths can be Raven or Koyote; but non the less, he´s the figure that mediated between life and death or the human and supernatural) and primitive Greek religion, specially considering the conflict between chtonic and olimpic deities that resamble a lot the conflict between gods of earth and gods of the sky in elvish pantheon.

[Vanatos]

To me, the Qun reminds me a lot of Taoism and even more of the idea of Dharma in both Hinduism and Buddhism; particularly the one of Theravada tradition. Sten insists very often in the importance of duty and how dispasionate qunari are in their activities.

Very true, i have read alot of books on Taoism, and even 'The Art of War' a book on warfare, is heavily Taoistic, and stresses all the time that military ventures are to be the absolute last resort.

I would say the Qun attitude reflects the common perception of Taoistic and Buddhist attitude (not necessarily the philosophy itself), being that Taoists and Buddhists are generally seen as very passive and not angry people.

Elves remind me a lot from various mythological cycles, namely several Native American accounts (here the trickster is a wolf, where in Native American myths can be Raven or Koyote; but non the less, he´s the figure that mediated between life and death or the human and supernatural) and primitive Greek religion, specially considering the conflict between chtonic and olimpic deities that resamble a lot the conflict between gods of earth and gods of the sky in elvish pantheon.

Indeed, though given how Bioware has really tried to hit home how the culture of hte elves are lost, and the hints that were going to discover surviving elves from that lost culture, i hope and expect they give a good twist on their culture rather then them simply being nature-loving animal/sun/moon worshippers.

[Statulos]

The idea of Native American background fits Dalish Elves just great. Since Franz Boas we know that native stories from Iroqui groups actually resamble a lot of accounts of Navajo or Pueblo groups (and those two are far, if you compare closer groups like Algonquine, the similarities are even more clear); but then again, all those stories incorporated many elements of European and African narratives.

This basicaly make sense since the Dailish are scatered traveling parties who are basicaly disconected from their original sources and have to re-create their culture with little left-overs here and there.

If you want to make a parallen with a real world culture, the Dalish to my eyes are not a bunch of hippie tree-hugers: but the Romani (Gypsy) people.

For the qunari part, Sten basicaly reminds me a lot from the ideal Khsatriya: a great warrior who annihilates not for pleasure or gain, but because it is who he is and fulfils that duty. It woud be veeeery cool if Bioware added the special class of Beeresad as a sort of oposite to berserker specialization.

Modifié par Statulos, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:34 .

[Fishy]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I love how you can ask for prayer from the chantry and nothing happens. People who are used to D&D are fully expecting to be showered in buffs

Yeah but in dungeons and Dragon god does exist.

[Vanatos]

Statulos wrote...

The idea of Native American background fits Dalish Elves just great. Since Franz Boas we know that native stories from Iroqui groups actually resamble a lot of accounts of Navajo or Pueblo groups (and those two are far, if you compare closer groups like Algonquine, the similarities are even more clear); but then again, all those stories incorporated many elements of European and African narratives.

This basicaly make sense since the Dailish are scatered traveling parties who are basicaly disconected from their original sources and have to re-create their culture with little left-overs here and there.

If you want to make a parallen with a real world culture, the Dalish to my eyes are not a bunch of hippie tree-hugers: but the Romani (Gypsy) people.

For the qunari part, Sten basicaly reminds me a lot from the ideal Khsatriya: a great warrior who annihilates not for pleasure or gain, but because it is who he is and fulfils that duty. It woud be veeeery cool if Bioware added the special class of Beeresad as a sort of oposite to berserker specialization.

Yeh i can definitely see the parallel of Dalish elves and native indians.

[FlintlockJazz]

Regarding the Qun, I think it is largely based on a more militant version of Bhuddhism, or maybe a Bushido version of it, especially with the emphasis on accepting your role in life and duty. In a way, think of it as a religious version of Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

[Vormaerin]

You say at as if the hundreds of native cultures in the Americas have some sort of common religious basis...

[Maria Caliban]

Statulos wrote...

Why is that different than beliving the Chantry is right because it is the Chantry?

In fact, the conversion of the Tevinter magi is a clear symbol of "oh, fine, we embrace your thing and you stop sending exhalted marches to the remains of my empire".

It seems that Andreste's teachings flourished among the Tevinter after their first gods appeared to have turned against them. It simply wasn't formalized into a religion until, um, Drakon I think. And the magisters of the Imperium *do* believe in the Maker.

[Statulos]

Vormaerin wrote...

You say at as if the hundreds of native cultures in the Americas have some sort of common religious basis...

I should have been more specific about that: I ment modern day US and Canada. Yeah, Aztecs, Mayans, Toltecs (examples from modern day Mexico) or Quechuas (from modern day Peru, Bolivia and Colombia) are not really connected to, let´s say, Iroquis.

Still, if you take a look at cited Franz Boas collections of myths, natives have some common narrations such as the stories of Koyote. Still, the paralell with Dalish is clear since those stories (still living today) have been heavy influenced by European and African populations in many cases; so you can expect that the religion, or at least the myths of the Dalish can be also influenced by those ones of men and dwarf.

[David Gaider]

Suprez30 wrote...
Yeah but in dungeons and Dragon god does exist.

I would argue that. In D&D you have powerful beings who claim that they are gods, but they are neither omniscient nor omnipotent -- and even the most powerful of them can be killed. I see no evidence even in D&D lore that they created the world. Ao perhaps comes closest, but even he is an enigmatic figure that sadly gets waved aside since he doesn't "give" his followers anything.

Nobody ever seems to ask who created all these powerful beings. Where did the planes come from? Why do people go to a particular plane when they die -- who decided that? So ultimately these questions get ignored in favor of the pantheons of mortal, fallible beings that clerics worship for the free gift of divine power. Which is convenient, but side-steps the real issues of faith and creation altogether. In short, there is no God in D&D.

[Ulicus]

David Gaider wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
Yeah but in dungeons and Dragon god does exist.

I would argue that. In D&D you have powerful beings who claim that they are gods, but they are neither omniscient nor omnipotent -- and even the most powerful of them can be killed. I see no evidence even in D&D lore that they created the world. Ao perhaps comes closest, but even he is an enigmatic figure that sadly gets waved aside since he doesn't "give" his followers anything.

Nobody ever seems to ask who created all these powerful beings. Where did the planes come from? Why do people go to a particular plane when they die -- who decided that? So ultimately these questions get ignored in favor of the pantheons of mortal, fallible beings that clerics worship for the free gift of divine power. Which is convenient, but side-steps the real issues of faith and creation altogether. In short, there is no God in D&D.

Queue obligatory "Dungeon Master" gag.

[RunCDFirst]

Vanatos wrote...
Elves seem to be traditional paganistic, i sorta wish they would put a new spin on it and make them (or at least the original elven culture) dark nature worship(like wood elves from warhammer).

Well it's not really a new spin if it's been done before, eh?

[Recidiva]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hmmmm...do we have any in-game confirmation that the remains of powerfull amges are magica lthemselves? Any example? If not, than Andraste's remains being magical while no other are, doesn't make hte "powerfull mage" theroy sound good.
Some think it's the Lyrium, but again, I've not heard no example of thigns becoming magical simply because lyrium is near. Templars chug that stuff on a regular basis. When they die, are their bones magical?

Lyrium can be "folded" into materials.  I don't see why it can't be folded into people.  And lyrium may not be transmuted after death or burning, and it's main component is "dust."  Kinda like ashes.

Anyway, if you can poison ashes you can imbue them with healing magic. Whether it's a literal "imbuing" or just dumping some super healing magic over it the same way you'd dump a powerful corrupting poison.

I don't think it's so much about proof as it is that they wrote it to be ambiguous on purpose.

[RunCDFirst]

Recidiva wrote...
Lyrium can be "folded" into materials.  I don't see why it can't be folded into people.  And lyrium may not be transmuted after death or burning, and it's main component is "dust."  Kinda like ashes.

Anyway, if you can poison ashes you can imbue them with healing magic. Whether it's a literal "imbuing" or just dumping some super healing magic over it the same way you'd dump a powerful corrupting poison.

I don't think it's so much about proof as it is that they wrote it to be ambiguous on purpose.

I rather saw the ashes as a sort of placebo that only works because everyone expects it to work. I have a hard time believing that 'some poison' placed Eamon into unhealable comatosis.