118 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

The Angry One wrote...

Why would he be wrong about this?
There does seem to be a high concentration of magic in the temple anyway what with the guardian, the puzzles, the jedi force ghosts "spirits", etc.
Not to mention the probability that Andraste was a powerful mage... and probably high as a kite on Lyrium dust.

To qualify for archaology advice, he has to be wearing a fedora and carrying a bullwhip.  Those are the rules.

Anyway, I'm actually arguing for Lyrium of some sort being the magical component of her ashes.  I'm just saying that Oghren isn't a reliable witness for almost...well..anything.

[The Angry One]

Well while Oghren is a stinking drunk, I don't think he's ever outright *wrong* about anything, at least not when he's "on the job" so to speak. He doesn't hallucinate or anything

[Kuravid]

The Angry One wrote...

Well while Oghren is a stinking drunk, I don't think he's ever outright *wrong* about anything, at least not when he's "on the job" so to speak. He doesn't hallucinate or anything

Yeah, it's not like he's imagining those huge spiders running around that you have to fight in the Deep Roads. They're actually there.

[Taleroth]

Kuravid wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well while Oghren is a stinking drunk, I don't think he's ever outright *wrong* about anything, at least not when he's "on the job" so to speak. He doesn't hallucinate or anything

Yeah, it's not like he's imagining those huge spiders running around that you have to fight in the Deep Roads. They're actually there.

Or maybe they're only there because he believes they should be.

Modifié par Taleroth, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[The Angry One]

Kuravid wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well while Oghren is a stinking drunk, I don't think he's ever outright *wrong* about anything, at least not when he's "on the job" so to speak. He doesn't hallucinate or anything

Yeah, it's not like he's imagining those huge spiders running around that you have to fight in the Deep Roads. They're actually there.

I rather wish he did imagine those, so I wouldn't have to deal with them.
Bloody spiders.

[Kuravid]

Taleroth wrote...

Kuravid wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well while Oghren is a stinking drunk, I don't think he's ever outright *wrong* about anything, at least not when he's "on the job" so to speak. He doesn't hallucinate or anything

Yeah, it's not like he's imagining those huge spiders running around that you have to fight in the Deep Roads. They're actually there.

Or maybe they're only there because he believes they should be.

Well, it isn't uncommon for people suffering from DTs to imagine spiders crawling all over the place. Not sure if it's the same for dwarves.

[Varenus Luckmann]

David Gaider wrote...
I would argue that. In D&D you have powerful beings who claim that they are gods, but they are neither omniscient nor omnipotent -- and even the most powerful of them can be killed. I see no evidence even in D&D lore that they created the world. Ao perhaps comes closest, but even he is an enigmatic figure that sadly gets waved aside since he doesn't "give" his followers anything.

Omniscience or Omnipotency (is that the word?) is not a measurement of godhood. It is only in the abrahamitic religions that gods are truly omnipotent or immortal. Amongst all the more ancient religions, gods are depicted as aspects of man - wheter it's Hinduism, Asatru, Ancient Greco/Roman religion, or Egyptian paganism. In all these, gods are supernatural or otherwise supreme, but they are almost universally mortal. In the old tales, they regularly depose of eachother, die, or otherwise trick eachother.

David Gaider wrote...
Nobody ever seems to ask who created all these powerful beings. Where did the planes come from? Why do people go to a particular plane when they die -- who decided that? So ultimately these questions get ignored in favor of the pantheons of mortal, fallible beings that clerics worship for the free gift of divine power. Which is convenient, but side-steps the real issues of faith and creation altogether. In short, there is no God in D&D.

Depending on the setting, I'd say AO. But that's somewhat beside the point. No, there is no God in D&D, perhaps. But there are gods.

What constitutes a god is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Just because it doesn't conform to the christian, judaic or muhammedanian concept of "God" doesn't make them not gods.

[Original182]

From what D&D books that I read, isn't Ao THE God? Didn't he banish all the lower gods to become mortals for some punishment? Then that human rogue ascended to become a demi-god.

The evidence would be the story written by the author. Ao IS there, just absent.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Original182 wrote...

From what D&D books that I read, isn't Ao THE God? Didn't he banish all the lower gods to become mortals for some punishment? Then that human rogue ascended to become a demi-god.
The evidence would be the story written by the author. Ao IS there, just absent.

You're talking about the Time of Troubles. Yes, in Forgotten Realms, Ao banished all the gods (not just the lesser ones, but yes, everyone that was lesser than him) except Helm (if I'm not mistaken) to Faerun as punishment for Bane and Myrkul trying to steal the Tablets of Fate from him.

While it's possible for gods to seemingly steal portfolios from eachother, Ao appears to administer them.

[Original182]

So in response to David Gaider's comments that there is no God in D&D, isn't Ao that God?

[Ulicus]

No, he's merely the Overgod assigned to Abeir-Toril's domain and basically the Demiurge of that universe. He has a superior, however -- whom he addresses at the end of the TOT Trilogy and is often equated with the Dungeon Master.

AO/Ao isn't the Alpha and the Omega. Despite the name.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:34 .

[The Angry One]

Dungeon Master?

So the ultimate deities in D&D are college nerds with hoods.



... makes sense.

[Ulicus]

The Angry One wrote...

Dungeon Master?
So the ultimate deities in D&D are college nerds with hoods.

... makes sense.

They Are Who They Are.

[MBirkhofer]

David Gaider wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
Yeah but in dungeons and Dragon god does exist.

I would argue that. In D&D you have powerful beings who claim that they are gods, but they are neither omniscient nor omnipotent -- and even the most powerful of them can be killed. I see no evidence even in D&D lore that they created the world. Ao perhaps comes closest, but even he is an enigmatic figure that sadly gets waved aside since he doesn't "give" his followers anything.

Nobody ever seems to ask who created all these powerful beings. Where did the planes come from? Why do people go to a particular plane when they die -- who decided that? So ultimately these questions get ignored in favor of the pantheons of mortal, fallible beings that clerics worship for the free gift of divine power. Which is convenient, but side-steps the real issues of faith and creation altogether. In short, there is no God in D&D.

Aren't many of these questions answered?
What defines a god?  why does a god need to be omniscient?    Having "portfolios", that are by defination of the ruleset, the atribute of true divinity.
Much of DnD's lore is dm based. Meaning the characters in game don't know it.  WE know Ao is a god, becuase we as the creaters of the game know the "truth" and history.
People in game, never heard of him.
You could ask, who created Ao.  but the rest we do have a chain of events. Ao created the universe. then selune and shar (light and dark, who may have started as one entity).  They created Chanteua, who is life and earth.   Mostly based on the Greek creation myths.

DnD is also elemental.  It has gods that are defined by mortals.  But elemental forces as well.  Chaos, order, good, evil.  In DnD, good and evil are not vague concepts of morality.  they are real elemental forces of the planes.

The planes themselves form on their own from the interaction of mortals, elemental forces, gods, and demons.

Modifié par MBirkhofer, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[Riot Inducer]

 sorry but I skipped over the majority of the thread, but in regards to the OP I'll put up my latest crackpot theory on the divine beings of Thedas.

I'm of the opinion that all the religions in Thedas are at least partially true. Most of my theory comes from looking at the Dalish belief system; the Dalish worship a group of gods who like most polytheistic religions each govern a different facet of the world or life (and death). However in the Dalish belief system there is also a group of beings they do not worship and condemn as a group of "evil" gods. Additionally there is one god, Fen'Harel "The Dread Wolf" or "The trickster god" who according to Dalish legend tricked both the good and evil gods into being trapped in their respective "heavens" and "abyss". According to the legend this occurred at the time the original Elven homeland, Arlathan, fell to the Tevinter Imperium.

Now my theory is that it was at this time that both the Dalish gods and the Tevinter dragon gods became dormant. I believe that both sets of deities (who may in fact be the same group) were trapped or subdued by this "Fen'Harel" who was essentially holding something of a divine coup. With all other gods trapped and dormant this Fen'Harel was the sole divine to have dominion over the fade and by extention Thedas. It's my belief that this Fen'Harel is in fact The Maker.

According to the Dalish legend after subduing all other gods Fen'Harel left to the edge of the earth for many centuries applauding himself for his feat. If this rough timeline is accurate Fen'Harel would have been returning to Thedas at large about the same time Andraste and the belief in The Maker started appearing. Fen'Harel choose Andraste to be his prophet and established the religion in order to convert Thedas to worshiping him exclusively.

As for the origin of the darkspawn the Chantry's story may in fact be correct and it was the Tevinter mages who entered Fen'Harel's seat of power that got him interested in Thedas once more after spending centuries giggling to himself.

But yeah, that's my theory on the deities of Thedas, it all fits together! 

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

So in practice it's hard to justify "wanting something hard enough" to equate to making it happen, if it doesn't work on anything else.  I think people of faith are completely capable of wanting something to happen in theory, and then doing everything they can in mundane reality to make it appear to be so, which then inspires more faith.

Big difference in faith and someone wanting a bra to pop off in the market place though.

Faith can channel thoughts and belief over the course of long periods of time.  It can structure that thought through ritual.  The urn, for example, is believed to have healing properties for a long time.  It has been quested for repeatedly.  And it has had people protecting it for a long time as well.

Now, maybe if enough men ritualized and thought about a particular bra being see through or falling off in the right manner for a long enough period of time, it might happen.  But odds are long before it does, interest will be drawn to a different set of cleavage and/or the bra will have been removed for other reasons

I don't know if you're read the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman?  Pretty good dark fantasy series, best depiction of a paladin ever.  The back story to it is that a colony was set up on a planet that has something that reacts to thoughts.  So monsters and the like could appear, because if you feared the boogieman was out there, that fear could turn him into reality.  So one guy's solution to this, in an attempt to control it, is to set up a religion, that way, channel people's thoughts in a way to control the planet's reaction to people.  Certain people could also interact with this force more directly and could amplify the effects if sacrifice was involved.

Similar thoughts could apply to DA. 

You've got Andraste and the Chantry, out to channel people's thoughts to control magic and achieve some end goal, if the Chant is heard everywhere at once.  You've got mages, who can cause effects through ritual thought and action (aka spells).  Not something they need, young mages without training can make things just happen, but useful in controlling their power, so only what they want to happen happens, a belief system they impose on themselves that both limits their power and grants them control.  And you've got blood mages, who can achieve greater levels of power through sacrifice.

In short, belief can create gods.  But you rarely see miracles, since strong enough belief, properly structured, doesn't happen often. If you do, there will often be a natural mage at the root of it, though one who doesn't realize what he/she is, attributing the power to a god.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure a bra-be-gone spell is often worked on by apprentices to the Circle :happy:

Modifié par Axterix, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:53 .

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

So in practice it's hard to justify "wanting something hard enough" to equate to making it happen, if it doesn't work on anything else.  I think people of faith are completely capable of wanting something to happen in theory, and then doing everything they can in mundane reality to make it appear to be so, which then inspires more faith.

Big difference in faith and someone wanting a bra to pop off in the market place though.

Faith can channel thoughts and belief over the course of long periods of time.  It can structure that thought through ritual.  The urn, for example, is believed to have healing properties for a long time.  It has been quested for repeatedly.  And it has had people protecting it for a long time as well.

Now, maybe if enough men ritualized and thought about a particular bra being see through or falling off in the right manner for a long enough period of time, it might happen.  But odds are long before it does, interest will be drawn to a different set of cleavage and/or the bra will have been removed for other reasons

I don't know if you're read the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman?  Pretty good dark fantasy series, best depiction of a paladin ever.  The back story to it is that a colony was set up on a planet that has something that reacts to thoughts.  So monsters and the like could appear, because if you feared the boogieman was out there, that fear could turn him into reality.  So one guy's solution to this, in an attempt to control it, is to set up a religion, that way, channel people's thoughts in a way to control the planet's reaction to people.  Certain people could also interact with this force more directly and could amplify the effects if sacrifice was involved.

Similar thoughts could apply to DA. 

You've got Andraste and the Chantry, out to channel people's thoughts to control magic and achieve some end goal, if the Chant is heard everywhere at once.  You've got mages, who can cause effects through ritual thought and action (aka spells).  Not something they need, young mages without training can make things just happen, but useful in controlling their power, so only what they want to happen happens, a belief system they impose on themselves that both limits their power and grants them control.  And you've got blood mages, who can achieve greater levels of power through sacrifice.

In short, belief can create gods.  But you rarely see miracles, since strong enough belief, properly structured, doesn't happen often. If you do, there will often be a natural mage at the root of it, though one who doesn't realize what he/she is, attributing the power to a god.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure a bra-be-gone spell is often worked on by apprentices to the Circle :happy:

This part in particular sort of makes my point:

"Now, maybe if enough men ritualized and thought about a particular bra being see through or falling off in the right manner for a long enough period of time, it might happen."

How...in ANY universe...do you not see this happening?  We have a church to this, the porn industry.  And several cults if you count certain types of Anime.  Maybe you have to wear a bra to get the full effect of how much attention goes that way vis a vis encountering pure spiritual devotion.

Andraste's dead.  There's nothing of Andraste in that temple except her ashes.  For all we know she's seriously pissed off about being dead AND being betrayed and that bit about burning.  She's not there to tell us, just homicidal guardians who take perverse pleasure in killing people in order to have them "prove" themselves worthy.  That isn't in keeping with Andraste's living message.  That's crazy talking.  But apparently they killed themselves to serve their devotion to her in the afterlife and now they have to keep themselves entertained.

Once she was dead, crazy architects and Willy took over.

Not disagreeing with you about anything, just making a silly point about the mechanics and getting an unholy happy chuckle when someone debates the bra theory, which I think is perfectly valid and profane at once.

I didn't read the Coldfire trilogy, but it sounds like there's someone who is organized.  Ferelden clearly lacks sane organization.

[Felene]

[Delete]

Modifié par Felene, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:06 .