169 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainne Chapel]

I think we've come as close to an ommission of a mistake as we're going to get with the ANNOUNCEMENT of the DLC.

I mean really what do they NEED to apologize for? I dont need an apology, I just want a proper send off for the series. I dont need a Happy yay we all lived ending, I dont even need a new ending, I just want the proper closure by the way of finding out about crew/allies. That's all i think the most ardent ever wanted really.

I mean those that didn't, think about it. Other than referencing crew and allies, what MORE could they possibly do to "custom" tailor the ending to your individual shepard? Most of the decisions (major ones anyway) were mostly resolved over the course of the game, all thats really left is the aftermath am I right?

[Harmless Citizen]

I think "apology" is a misnomer. What OP was really getting at is BioWare admitting that the ending was bad instead of blowing that "artistic integrity" smoke into everyone's faces.

[Nchopper]

aimlessgun wrote...

Nchopper, I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you said. I will treat videogames as important, regardless of what you say. I will continue to think that the end is self-evidently bad for many good reasons, and not just because of internet groupthink (I also intentionally avoided anything to do with ME3 until finishing the game).

I doubt we can resolve our differences, and I can hardly tell you to be less angry with a straight face

I obviously didn't come across clearly and I'll admit I get frustrated by this. I love games and I don't mean to reduce your own valuation, however I think this mess has taken on a life of its own and gone beyond mere criticism by empationed fans. I myself think the ending could have been done better in numerous ways and agree with many of the complaints put forward by people, but this catastrophy mentality is outrageous, yet so completely run of the mill at the same time. Oxymorons aside I am just sick of it all not just this situation but across the gaming world, in football, films everything. 

A petition...... 

I've just lost faith in it all.

It's also this spiteful negativity that really seeks to make individuals feel unenlightened and foolish if they take enjoyment from something. It is easy to say ignore it but when it reaches the point of making mainstream news it becomes a difficult task. Ultimately I just feel this case doesn't warrant the blowout that it has conjured.

Modifié par Nchopper, 06 avril 2012 - 02:46 .

[Mx_CN3]

Tovanus wrote...

I never did a user-review myself. However, I don't see any problem with the people who 0/5'd it. or 0/10 or whatever they do on various sites. If you do an ending so bad that it poisons people's view of the entire series, you're just lucky people can't go into negative numbers for reviews. 

Plot based games can get a lot of fan committment. There's a lot of upside to that. It also makes your ending much more important, and there's a huge downside to that if you fail hard at it. As long as people honestly believe the ending ruined the game for them, then the scores are warranted.

Well, I guess we differ in how we judge games, then.  I loved the vast majority of the game, so I feel that that work should not go unrecognized.  I mean just like movies with really bad plots or whatever can still be praised on their actors, or effects, or whatever.  In this case, despite the atrocity of the ending, I'd give the game points for fun gunplay, good voice acting, some excellent music, and good writing (for the most part, at least <_<).

I mean, I totally understand where you, and everyone else that 0/5'd it (or would 0/5 it) is coming from, but I just don't operate that way.

[aimlessgun]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

I think we've come as close to an ommission of a mistake as we're going to get with the ANNOUNCEMENT of the DLC.

I mean really what do they NEED to apologize for? I dont need an apology, I just want a proper send off for the series. I dont need a Happy yay we all lived ending, I dont even need a new ending, I just want the proper closure by the way of finding out about crew/allies. That's all i think the most ardent ever wanted really.

I mean those that didn't, think about it. Other than referencing crew and allies, what MORE could they possibly do to "custom" tailor the ending to your individual shepard? Most of the decisions (major ones anyway) were mostly resolved over the course of the game, all thats really left is the aftermath am I right?

Here's an example of a simple thing they could do that is an implicit admission of mistakes: Retcon the Normandy stuff at the end. (I guess I can't go into detail due to no spoilers) There's a thread in the Campaign forum where people are spitballing ideas on how they will 'clarify' this. All the options seem forced and weak. 

The easiest way for them to fix the Normandy thing is to retcon it out. However, they refuse to take the easiest path and instead stick to their mistakes, implicitly denying that they made any mistakes. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 06 avril 2012 - 02:45 .

[batlin]

Until they make DLC that gives us what was promised: an ending unique to the choices you made throughout the game and not an A, B or C ending, no, people will still rightfully be upset.

Modifié par batlin, 06 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[Acidrain92]

Tovanus wrote...

Mx_CN3 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

You are speaking of a rabid minority, a group of people which most of the Retakers also think are idiots.  Most of us eding-haters try to be very civil, and only view these people as hurting our cause.

However, bad user reviews are perfectly warranted.  Didn't like the game?  Give it a bad review.  That's what reviews are for (though 0/5'ing it is ridiculous).

I never did a user-review myself. However, I don't see any problem with the people who 0/5'd it. or 0/10 or whatever they do on various sites. If you do an ending so bad that it poisons people's view of the entire series, you're just lucky people can't go into negative numbers for reviews. 

Plot based games can get a lot of fan committment. There's a lot of upside to that. It also makes your ending much more important, and there's a huge downside to that if you fail hard at it. As long as people honestly believe the ending ruined the game for them, then the scores are warranted.

and Bioware doesnt think their ending is bad. Your argument is invalid. The crazy part of the retake ME movement is no better than bioware when it comes to justifying everything they talk about and do.

Modifié par Acidrain92, 06 avril 2012 - 02:43 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Tovanus wrote...

Mx_CN3 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

You are speaking of a rabid minority, a group of people which most of the Retakers also think are idiots.  Most of us eding-haters try to be very civil, and only view these people as hurting our cause.

However, bad user reviews are perfectly warranted.  Didn't like the game?  Give it a bad review.  That's what reviews are for (though 0/5'ing it is ridiculous).

I never did a user-review myself. However, I don't see any problem with the people who 0/5'd it. or 0/10 or whatever they do on various sites. If you do an ending so bad that it poisons people's view of the entire series, you're just lucky people can't go into negative numbers for reviews. 

Plot based games can get a lot of fan committment. There's a lot of upside to that. It also makes your ending much more important, and there's a huge downside to that if you fail hard at it. As long as people honestly believe the ending ruined the game for them, then the scores are warranted.

If you dont like a game fine, but most of the 0/10's I've seen... seem to be self loathing pity party posts that have next to no merit.  Like someone ranting about a movie they KNOW they wouldn't enjoy but pay to see anyway just to add fuel to their fire.

I doubt you can call those "fans" really. If anything their fair weather.  and while thats not a problem in and of itself I just dont feel those people should paint themselves as the "true voice" of fans.  Ya know? 

I have no problem with differing opinions, but if someone cant give a subjective opinonated review... why should I even bother listening?  I mean I've NEVER played a game that was a 0.  That's a negative that doesn't even fit.  A Game with NO redeeming qualities.  and I've NEVER played a 0 game in my life, much less one as mostly well done as ME3.

That'd be like me giving Skyrim a 0.... and I'd never do that, and i dont even play Bethesda games, but to go as far as to give a great game like Skyrim a 0 is just silly.  (Granted I use "great" subjectively as I said I dont play Bethesda or Elder scrolls games really, not my cup of tea, but i DO give credit where its due regardless of if i dislike something)

[Harmless Citizen]

...As an amusing bit of trivia, Google searching "artistic integrity" yields ME3 discussion as the third result.

LOL.

[Rammastus]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

You're lumping bad user reviews in with death threats...?
How can one go "overboard" with bad user reviews, anyway? Is it conspiratorial?  

Overboard would be easy to do. Game gets rated 10/10, an ending you didn't like would realistically make it a 6/10, people rating it 0/10 simply for the reasoning of not liking the ending. That would be overboard.  Some of the things that people are writing about this game is just waaay off base.  

People not able to get past a black screen, therefore not able to play it at all rating it a 0 would be understandable. As long as they corrected it with the appropriate score if and when they were able to play it.  People scoring it pure 0s, combined with death threats, a donation to charity that was only given just to get a better ending, etc all mixed together does not help your cause at all. On the charity part, donating to charity just to get a better ending is like a corporation donating just to get a tax break. Doesn't help your case, but the charity doesn't care because it's getting helped anyway.

[Cainne Chapel]

batlin wrote...

Until they make DLC that gives us what was promised: an ending unique to the choices you made throughout the game and not an A, B or C ending, no, people will still rightfully be upset.

refer to my earlier post batlin.

Even ME1 and ME2 play out a certain way no matter WHAT choices you make (most game media does).  So outside of referencing a few of your crew/ally choices, WHAT could they possibly add to make the ending unique?  I mean outside of having thousands of differen't things for ALL choices in the game (which is NOT goign to happen no matter how many times you click your heels) what can they do OTHER than that in an epilogue?

Bottom line, no matter what choice they made for an ending, someone would not like it for whatever reason because SOMETHING important to them (not you) them was not included in the ending cinematic or whatever.  So outside of an expanded epilogue or extended scenes detailing perhaps MAJOR crew and ally results, could bioware possibly do?

I mean when it comes down to it, most of the differences would be a cutscene here or there realistically,

[Oldbones2]

You may have a point OP, but the thing is I've actually reached the point where I'm indifferent to Mass Effect itself.

A new ending won't bring back the feelings I had while playing the game, and it won't erase the memory of those hopes being ruthlessly crushed at the end for no reason.

An apology would have been nice two weeks ago. Honestly an apology with an explanation and a statement that said, "we're sorry you didn't like the endings, we tried our best and as much as we try to include you guys, we aren't going to change the ending", would have been ok. TWO WEEKS AGO.

But they didn't do that, instead they said tell us what you want changed and we'll see what we can do. In the mean time would you please wait patiently while we refuse to communicate and oh yes please talk up our game to your friends.


I'm so mad at BIOWARE, not EA, not faceless executives, but Bioware that it keeps me coming back here. Keeps me on these forums. I honestly don't know what will satisfy me at the moment, (I'm sure Pro enders will love to quote this part) maybe nothing will. But one thing is for sure. Bioware isn't trying to win me back. They don't care about meeting me halfway. They did what they want and they think they can get away with it.

And they're probably right.




This time.

But you know what Bioware you lost fans after Dragon Age 2, you lost more over this debacle and your handling of it. And I'm guessing if you attitude and your standards don't improve you'll lose fans on your next game. Sooner or later you'll run yourself into the ground.

[batlin]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Even ME1 and ME2 play out a certain way no matter WHAT choices you make (most game media does).  So outside of referencing a few of your crew/ally choices, WHAT could they possibly add to make the ending unique?  I mean outside of having thousands of differen't things for ALL choices in the game (which is NOT goign to happen no matter how many times you click your heels) what can they do OTHER than that in an epilogue?

Bottom line, no matter what choice they made for an ending, someone would not like it for whatever reason because SOMETHING important to them (not you) them was not included in the ending cinematic or whatever.  So outside of an expanded epilogue or extended scenes detailing perhaps MAJOR crew and ally results, could bioware possibly do?

I mean when it comes down to it, most of the differences would be a cutscene here or there realistically,

Here's the difference between ME1 and ME2's endings and ME3's:





Bioware advertised ME3's ending as being the exact opposite of what we were given. The plot holes, OOC Shepard, and the star brat? Icing on the s***ty cake.

This is false advertising through and through. It's also exploitative to once-loyal consumers. Can you honestly deny people have the right to be a little ticked off that they spent $60+ for a lie?

Modifié par batlin, 06 avril 2012 - 02:52 .

[InvincibleHero]

aimlessgun wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Apologize for what you didn't like their ending. Subjective opinion is not fact or denote an error on someone else's part.

I dislike relativitism. You look at all the opinions, take in the available information, but at some point a man has to make a stand and say "this is what is right and what is wrong". 

Except by virtue of authority I'd say your subjective opinion about the ending has less value than BW's authority as IP creator. They say the endings are fine they have more credibility. Your demand for an apology is overboard.

[Terraforming2154]

Rammastus wrote...

Terraforming2154 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

You're lumping bad user reviews in with death threats...?
How can one go "overboard" with bad user reviews, anyway? Is it conspiratorial?  

Overboard would be easy to do. Game gets rated 10/10, an ending you didn't like would realistically make it a 6/10, people rating it 0/10 simply for the reasoning of not liking the ending. That would be overboard.  Some of the things that people are writing about this game is just waaay off base.  

Well okay, that makes sense. I just think people are always quick to either over-score (perfect 10/10) or underscore (ruinous 0/10) things. Especially when they are passionate about something.
I guess I just didn't consider it as being as much of a machination as more of a very emotional gut-reaction. But yeah, I can see where you are coming from in that regard.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 06 avril 2012 - 02:57 .

[hatchets666]

Iv been around since this began, and i can only come to one conclusion, there is no hope of a redone ending, its not happening, bioware have told there fans to shut the hell up and p**s off, and there not changing that stance, im not buying any further products with there label, also, the people who call the movement whiners are quite clearly trolls as i have yet to hear a point made by them with any real validity, there arguments come down to "they cant please everyone so shut up and like it" actually they can, by making your choices matter they can, its the fact choices DONT matter at all in the ending that makes it all pointless, why replay 1 and 2 when you can do what ya like and still get the same choices at the end, its all meaningless.

[Cainne Chapel]

batlin wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Even ME1 and ME2 play out a certain way no matter WHAT choices you make (most game media does).  So outside of referencing a few of your crew/ally choices, WHAT could they possibly add to make the ending unique?  I mean outside of having thousands of differen't things for ALL choices in the game (which is NOT goign to happen no matter how many times you click your heels) what can they do OTHER than that in an epilogue?

Bottom line, no matter what choice they made for an ending, someone would not like it for whatever reason because SOMETHING important to them (not you) them was not included in the ending cinematic or whatever.  So outside of an expanded epilogue or extended scenes detailing perhaps MAJOR crew and ally results, could bioware possibly do?

I mean when it comes down to it, most of the differences would be a cutscene here or there realistically,

Here's the difference between ME1 and ME2's endings and ME3's:





Bioware advertised ME3's ending as being the exact opposite of what we were given. The plot holes, OOC Shepard, and the star brat? Icing on the s***ty cake.

This is false advertising through and through. It's also exploitative to once-loyal consumers. Can you honestly deny people have the right to be a little ticked off that they spent $60+ for a lie?

I get where you're coming from Batlin, but as I had a realistic view, I wasn't upset.

You see, knowing how games are made and what not, and given the number of variables IN ME3, I had no delusions into thinking the ending was going to be wildly divergent.

Maybe I didn't read enough, as I did TRY to keep myself froms poilers int he forums, or maybe i just didn't read the right press releases, but I was never under the illusion that ALL 38 of my ME2 imports would have a completely different ending.

As I said a LOT of the major plot lines were tied up in the game itself and they themselves did have different ways to play out.  But I realized going in that no matter what there's STILL a narrative so either way it was going to play a certain way despite the choices I made.

Now could they have done BETTER? Hell yeah, but I always figured shepard was going to go the heroic sacrifice way from the get go as sad as I'd be about it ( I love my shepards) I figured given the threat it was the only way to come out the other end personally

[aimlessgun]

InvincibleHero wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Apologize for what you didn't like their ending. Subjective opinion is not fact or denote an error on someone else's part.

I dislike relativitism. You look at all the opinions, take in the available information, but at some point a man has to make a stand and say "this is what is right and what is wrong". 

Except by virtue of authority I'd say your subjective opinion about the ending has less value than BW's authority as IP creator. They say the endings are fine they have more credibility. Your demand for an apology is overboard.

And by virtue of many many well reasoned arguments about what makes a good story and what does not, what works in writing and what does not, the ending is bad. An IP creator is not a higher authority than the established conventions of good writing. 

By virtue of consumer response, the ending is bad. The first rule of good writing is that you are writing for your readers, not yourself. That's why most fanfiction is awful: fanfiction is written for the writer. When the majority of people who experienced your story think you screwed up, and then give you really good reasons for why you screwed up, you might want to consider that you may have screwed up. 

Have you ever written fiction, and had it reviewed by a writing group? I have. Sometimes everyone at the table thinks part of my story doesn't work, and they give me good reasons why it doesn't work. Do you think aritistic integrity and good writing mean that I should tell them "the hell with all of you, none of you understand my vision!". No. Artistic integrity and good writing mean I probably change that part of the story. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 06 avril 2012 - 03:00 .

[PiEman]

aimlessgun wrote...

PiEman wrote...

No, I'd be perfectly happy with more endings.

Doing serious work on the ending to the point of having new endings (like a 4th choice with Star Child) is an implicit admission of mistakes, I think. An implicit admission through alternate endings or retcons is definitely the best case scenario 

"Clarification" avoids implicit admission of mistakes. 

They could call it "Commander Shepard's Adventures through the **** of Funland" for all I care, as long as they changed the endings instead of polishing their crap...

[Cainne Chapel]

hatchets666 wrote...

Iv been around since this began, and i can only come to one conclusion, there is no hope of a redone ending, its not happening, bioware have told there fans to shut the hell up and p**s off, and there not changing that stance, im not buying any further products with there label, also, the people who call the movement whiners are quite clearly trolls as i have yet to hear a point made by them with any real validity, there arguments come down to "they cant please everyone so shut up and like it" actually they can, by making your choices matter they can, its the fact choices DONT matter at all in the ending that makes it all pointless, why replay 1 and 2 when you can do what ya like and still get the same choices at the end, its all meaningless.

Well then I ask you this hatchet, outside of details on your crew/allies after the you (destroy or whatever to the reapers) how do they make your decisions and choices in ME1 and 2 count?  I mean for the most part weren't those major decisions tied up during the course of the game?

and if the epilogues detail how your crew moves on individually based on your relationship with them how is that NOT an outcome of your choices?

Thats what closure would entail, whether shepard lives or dies is moot, I want to know how the rest went on.

[MarchWaltz]

I have only followed TWO (2) gaming series so far, Metal Gear and Mass Effect (others are in progress).

Now, I saw the end of Metal Gear. I played MG4. The ending was perfect, a true ending, ZERO speculation from anyone about anything, the story simply closes the chapter for the series.

I guess I was spoiled by endings like that, you know, that give closure, because I expected that from Mass Effect.

Man, was I wrong. Is doing crappy endings and not giving closure, giving a big hint toward how lazy you are, artistic at all? Makes me glad I'm a science student.

[FlashedMyDrive]

Why couldn't Bioware just do what everyone was expecting: a ME2-esk ending. War assets determine how well you do against the reapers.  Was that so hard?

Of course you had to try to be different and edgy by creating some profound philosphical debate, that in reality, was childish and lacking depth, which also managed to destroy all major themes throughout the series.

Good job.

Modifié par FlashedMyDrive, 06 avril 2012 - 03:03 .

[Cainne Chapel]

But war assets DO determine how well you do in a sense, and who knows if they add closure and clarity, maybe they'll do MORE.

We can hope.

Like for instance, if we're under 3k, most of sheps crew dies int he final push? etc etc.

OR my perfect way would be like what happened with *Spoiler*





Steve in Priority London, that should have happened for all current and past crew I think.

[KBomb]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Except by virtue of authority I'd say your subjective opinion about the ending has less value than BW's authority as IP creator. They say the endings are fine they have more credibility. Your demand for an apology is overboard.

 
As a corporation, they have a responsibility to consumers to release the product advertised. Even if you ignore people's disgust over the endings, the interviews in which they ply their product is an antithesis of what was released. As consumers, it's our responsibility to demand companies uphold their promises, deliver products that adhere to advertisements and that are quality and satisfying to their customers.


When people remove that culpability from corporations with statements like, “It's their product, they can do as they like.” or “They say it's good enough, meh, that's good enough for me.” --what you're really doing is taking any consumer power away from the people and placing it into the hands of stockholders, CEO's and other corporate climbers who care nothing about the customer, as long as that customer is smiling and reaching for their wallet.

[Nchopper]

batlin wrote...

This is false advertising through and through. It's also exploitative to once-loyal consumers. Can you honestly deny people have the right to be a little ticked off that they spent $60+ for a lie?

I take issue with this. I completely agree with being offended by the clear deception and it should be a point of cmplaint, however I don't believe from a gameplay perspective  the $60 for a lie holds true. If the complaint is on principle over being sold something based upon that statement alone or that expecting a climax such as stated was a huge part of it then keep blowing the trumpet, but surely most people bought that game for the game as a whole. That is the defining aspect of games is that we interact and play them and surely you cannot disregard the other foundations, the combat, the characters the other 90% of the game as part of the purchase because you were upset over one aspect, granted a highly ifluencial aspect? 

While what you've highlighted is shameful Cainne's point still stands in my eyes and Bioware essentially bit of more than they could chew with those statements. Once made they should have tried their hardest to live up to them which they clearly did not, however it was essentially an implausable aspiration to begin with and the ending we got should still not have come as such a dramatic surprise as many seem to have found it.