169 réponses à ce sujet

[Nchopper]

aimlessgun

This isn't a challenge or an attempt to stoke argument just a question out of curiosity, but did you for the most part, enjoy the game? Was it just the ending that tarnished it and would this post DLC stuff partially remedy your disappointment?

I ask because you seem like a reasoned sort and I see so many people so steadfastly defiant that it would seem Bioware would need to polish their cars in order to regain any respect. I was heavily emotionally invested in ME and though perhaps its not clever to admit it, I did well up a few times during the last game. I hold reservations over the very ending along with the rest of you, yet I don't feel this sense of utter betrayal that others do and I guess that's why I find the response so preposterous.

EDIT:
"This. Only with acknowledgement and apology, will BioWare ever be given the chance to redeem themselves. "

Things like this I mean, so much animosity.

Modifié par Nchopper, 06 avril 2012 - 03:40 .

[Ericus]

Random Nobody wrote...

That "artistic integrity" just burns me. Really, it does. It doesn't matter to me whether they change, "clarify," or keep the endings (and never has), but every time I hear "vision," "artistic," "integrity" or any combination of those words, it's as if I'm being told that I am too stupid to understand narrative structure, rhetorical analysis, or the inherent fluidity of art. For heaven's sake, come up with a better excuse than that or just say "no."

And as I've harped before, the only thing I'm interested in seeing is BioWare addressing their pre-release statements, which hasn't been done at all.

The other thing about the artistic integrity arguement is that it assumes that all art is inherently 'good'.  Well, I can tell you that's not what we thought in Canada a few years ago when the government spent $2 million to buy a red stripe.  Yes, a red stripe.  Frankly, some art is 'not good', to put it politely.  So if Bioware wants to be judged by that standard, then the endings are poorly conceived art.  The fact that they're still 'art' is irrelevant.

[KBomb]

shurikenmanta wrote...


Don't know why not, I saw evidence of all three on my time here.

Ultimately, Bioware aren't going to admit to something if they feel that's not true. And it's abundantly obvious that they believe their ending sufficed. Quite frankly I think the fact they even tried to meet you guys halfway was pretty impressive because this has shown that you guys are unpleasable and no matter what they do you guys will whine endlessly.

Deal with it.

 
“You guys”? Lol Perhaps you should have read my other reply on the subject. Didn't take the time? Oh, well. Deal with it!

[zambingo]

People can get offended at or feel slighted by absolutely anything. Our culture is that stupid. I'm sure people think I'm retarded for liking the ending, but do I get pissed? No. Because I'm too dumb to understand I'm being made fun of obviously. J'aime des pommes et des oranges. C'est la vie.

[InvincibleHero]

KBomb wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...


If you have valid concrete 100% verifiable reasons then go for it. You can try, but saying the writing is bad is not a valid ciritcism as it is subjective opinion. Some want to write their own endings and that is wrong.

 
You're addressing a wider speculation instead of the issue in my post. Bad writing is subjective. True.


I saw you in another post bring up writers like Shakespeare and Poe. The thing is, we're not talking about a novel or a painting. We're talking about an interactive video game. However, I'll play. If a painter told me that his painting would be an interactive endeavor between us—that every angle I chose would lead into a shape, every color I chose would bloom into a prism of my vision—that every stroke of his brush would be dependent of my direction and flow and then when he revealed it, it's only three strokes of green, red and blue. You damn right I would be angry that his promises weren't kept and especially on my coin.


But painters don't do that and neither do authors. Video games—specifically RPG's do. We're also not talking about a game that has one narrow path to which the ending is not determinate on the player,r but solely on the writer. Bioware has always advertised Mass Effect to be a story you shaped. Would you like to see the dozens upon dozens of interviews, tweets and statements that were not followed through?


Just because something is subjective, doesn't make a complaint invalid and artistic integrity can only stretch so far. Taste is certainly subjective, but you wouldn't eat a dish a chef prepared for you if it contained an ingredient you find disgusting. The dish may be delicious to most and it may be his signature piece. It's subjective, right? Makes no difference that you're paying for it.  Well, then sup up!

So how does the decisions in the game not change it? I posit it is a different experience if you support the geth and Tali dies even if you end the game with the same three choices. Your total points alter which endings you get and the degrees therein. You can choose not to take Allers. You choose your squadmates which changes the story a little. That is enough to cover that base of shaping the experience.

Maybe you have some meat there, but it would be diffcult to prove anything. Expecting literally what they said pre-release is expecting too much. They are always going to talk glowingly. Molyneux is terrible for that. Black & White was an average dull game with little to do except make horrid glyphs that were wonky. I spent hours making food and other exciting things while the people would starve to death while praying with food 2 feet away from them. I got over it and have not bought a LH game since because they have no appeal to me.

[batlin]

shurikenmanta wrote...

Don't know why not, I saw evidence of all three on my time here.

Ultimately, Bioware aren't going to admit to something if they feel that's not true. And it's abundantly obvious that they believe their ending sufficed. Quite frankly I think the fact they even tried to meet you guys halfway was pretty impressive because this has shown that you guys are unpleasable and no matter what they do you guys will whine endlessly.

Deal with it.

Need I remind you:

Modifié par batlin, 06 avril 2012 - 03:48 .

[Noelemahc]

Hell, they could've saved face even if they said the DLC would only add one extra option to the very end. A MegaTen-style resolution, letting Shep give the Catalyst the finger, ride back down that dingy elevator and call Hackett for a strike on the Citadel. Sure, we lose Earth, but the Reapers LOSE THE CYCLES because they lose their head honcho. Clean, elegant, cue yahg developing spaceflight. Closure, catharsis, never touch a new BioWare game for five or six years (like I did after finishing Baldur's Gate for the first time).

Instead they're making it out as if the ending was a stroke of genius and they're gracefully dumbing it down for us brutes. That is not how you undo a clusterfrell, people. You don't calm down a raging horde by saying "go home, nothing to see here" (well, not if you want to live to a nice old age, anyway). You do it by pretending to listen to them and then, when their backs are turned, calling in the machine gunners and-- oh, you sneaky BioWare, you!

Modifié par Noelemahc, 06 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[Well]

delete

Modifié par Well, 06 avril 2012 - 04:06 .

[Sabrestrikealpha]

 I'm mainly upset because Bioware is treating us like the dog in this video:

It feels like they are being coy just for the sake of it. Today's events are a perfect example. Right at the height of all the controversy they post stuff on this board saying, "Ohhhh, super-huge-mega announcement at PAX! You better watch!"

This was reasonably taken by most as being something about the ending. Then today they announce the DLC and state they won't be discussing the ending at PAX at all. When people call them on it, they say "We never said the super-huge-mega announcement would be about the ending"   Technically that's true. However, to say that it was heavily implied would be an understatement.

Basically, I just want them to be straight with everyone. I'd be totally cool with any of the following responses so long as they put in non-PR speak:

1. We're not changing the ending. Time to accept it an move on.
2. You're right. The ending sucked. Let us try to make good through DLC.
3. This was planned all along. You should wait for the DLC.
4. We're not talking about this anymore.

[shurikenmanta]

KBomb wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...


Don't know why not, I saw evidence of all three on my time here.

Ultimately, Bioware aren't going to admit to something if they feel that's not true. And it's abundantly obvious that they believe their ending sufficed. Quite frankly I think the fact they even tried to meet you guys halfway was pretty impressive because this has shown that you guys are unpleasable and no matter what they do you guys will whine endlessly.

Deal with it.

 
“You guys”? Lol Perhaps you should have read my other reply on the subject. Didn't take the time? Oh, well. Deal with it!

Yep, 'you guys'. So far from what I have seen, the majority of the ragers cannot be appeased and I don't even know why Bioware is trying any more.

[KBomb]

InvincibleHero wrote...


So how does the decisions in the game not change it? I posit it is a different experience if you support the geth and Tali dies even if you end the game with the same three choices. Your total points alter which endings you get and the degrees therein. You can choose not to take Allers. You choose your squadmates which changes the story a little. That is enough to cover that base of shaping the experience.

Maybe you have some meat there, but it would be diffcult to prove anything. Expecting literally what they said pre-release is expecting too much. They are always going to talk glowingly. Molyneux is terrible for that. Black & White was an average dull game with little to do except make horrid glyphs that were wonky. I spent hours making food and other exciting things while the people would starve to death while praying with food 2 feet away from them. I got over it and have not bought a LH game since because they have no appeal to me.

 
The choices we made have no impact on the ending. And please, don't bring up the useless point system—that was cheapened when you're allowed to “make it up” in MP—and even that was advertised falsely.  
Also, I understand that some things change during production and so shall the statements. Tweeks may change, but never once has their advertisement on choices and definite closure ever changed and yes, I most certainly expect if they make a statement about something, I want it to be taken seriously and literally and I want them to uphold it. I didn't spend my money for “maybe it meant this, maybe it didn't.”


I cannot go into what choices matter and how they do no matter without going into heavy spoiler territory. I would be happy to do so in PM if you genuinely want to know my view on it.


 
@shurikenmanta
Obviously, you still haven't read my response to it. So, I will assume you just like to lump people together without facts. I find people do this when they reach an argument they can't flesh out and make valid points. It equates to “No, you!” The Majority of people do as that poster said? Really? Where do you get these statistics, or are you just making it up to suit your own personal view? 

I am upset with Bioware. I think I'll go find the janitor of Bioware and explain my dissatisfaction . After all, they are affiliated with Bioware. amirite? Those guys.

Modifié par KBomb, 06 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Noelemahc]

shurikenmanta wrote...
Yep, 'you guys'. So far from what I have seen, the majority of the ragers cannot be appeased and I don't even know why Bioware is trying any more.

That's because they made the classic mistake of fixing errors. They wait till the infection progresses onto gangrene and then, when you have to start cutting toes off lest you lose a leg, they break out the band-aids, not the hacksaw.

A well-phrased apology from Casey Hudson amounting to "we're sorry we didn't deliver the awesome we promised, we hope to earn forgiveness with Mass Effect Gaiden" (substitute name for whatever you want to dream about) within THE FIRST WEEK of March would've prevented ALL OF THIS. But, like the asari hogging their Prothean beacon, BioWare decided to stick by the artistic integrity instead of admitting they made an error by depriving the players of any semblance of sensible choice in the ending.

[Kilkia123]

aimlessgun wrote...

We want Bioware to admit that they were wrong, that they screwed up and that the ending was bad. 

We don't want a DLC announcement that hides behind the flimsy shield of 'artistic integrity' and pretends that more 'closure' and 'explanations' will make the ending work. We want a DLC announcement that reads like this:

"We screwed up the ending to ME3, and we're sorry. Unfortunately we cannot allocate the resources to totally retcon the endings, even though we should. We will do the best we can with this free clarification DLC."


But forgiveness is not possible without confession of guilt. And I think that we're so angry still because Bioware is refusing to 'fess up. 

What you are asking for, though (i.e. BioWare "fessing up"), is not likely going to happen. Why? Because the game ended how the developers and writers at BioWare wanted it to (I won't delve into artistic integrity and all that). I agree that perhaps the execution of the ending was not carried out as well as it could have been (e.g. the plotholes and some lack of closure as well as similar endings). But the thing is, BioWare isn't inherently in the wrong and didn't "screw up the ending" just because it is in your opinion (and that of many others, unfortunately) that the ending was bad. Don't get me wrong; I was disappointed in the ending just like yourself and many others. BioWare took a risk with this ending and had some missteps. However, I certainly won't demand an apology when one is not owed nor will I state that making a new ending is the right thing to do. It is obvious that BioWare is listening to its fans, and this news of free DLC to further clarify events in the ending shows that.

To be honest, I believe (and this is my opinion, of course) that people are still angry because they wanted the current endings to be changed completely (i.e. the sentiment of the Retake Mass Effect movement). But that movement was misguided from the beginning (Retaking Mass Effect 3 from its own creators? Okay.); BioWare retconning the ending was never going to happen.

Anyway, I don't post often on these forums, so I apologize for popping in here as a no-name guy. I hope my post wasn't too long and I did not come across as rude. I'm merely stating my thoughts.

[Beti88]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

How dare we give voice to our utter sadness and dissatisfaction?! How dare we point out the terrible writing, and horrendeous plot holes?! How dare we donate 80000 (!) dollars to charitiy?! How dare we complain about a product we payed for that destroys a franchise?!

How dare we give negative fedback?! Shame on us

[-Skorpious-]

Sure, we can be mad that Bioware refuses to accept they made a mistake. Or we can be mad that we basically spent 100 + hours (I am around 500 + easily) into a universe that was essentially taken behind the shed and shot.

That can be pretty overwhelming I hear.

[shurikenmanta]

Noelemahc wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...
Yep, 'you guys'. So far from what I have seen, the majority of the ragers cannot be appeased and I don't even know why Bioware is trying any more.

That's because they made the classic mistake of fixing errors. They wait till the infection progresses onto gangrene and then, when you have to start cutting toes off lest you lose a leg, they break out the band-aids, not the hacksaw.

A well-phrased apology from Casey Hudson amounting to "we're sorry we didn't deliver the awesome we promised, we hope to earn forgiveness with Mass Effect Gaiden" (substitute name for whatever you want to dream about) within THE FIRST WEEK of March would've prevented ALL OF THIS. But, like the asari hogging their Prothean beacon, BioWare decided to stick by the artistic integrity instead of admitting they made an error by depriving the players of any semblance of sensible choice in the ending.

And that there is the problem. You guys (yep, there's that word again!) think that you are somehow entitled to Bioware crawling on their hands and knees and apologising even if they legitimately felt that ending was what they intended to cap off their finale. That's like me demanding an apology from Stephanie Meyer because Twilight is balls.

As a writer, I think they were very generous, because quite frankly if it were me I'd probably pull a Hideaki Anno and deliberately make the ending more obscure to flip the bird and annoy people.

Modifié par shurikenmanta, 06 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Reptilian Rob]

^^^

Oh dude, right there with out. Easily past 600+hours. Make it sting even more.

[Kilkia123]

Beti88 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

How dare we give voice to our utter sadness and dissatisfaction?! How dare we point out the terrible writing, and horrendeous plot holes?! How dare we donate 80000 (!) dollars to charitiy?! How dare we complain about a product we payed for that destroys a franchise?!

How dare we give negative fedback?! Shame on us

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that negative feedback should always be welcome. How else will a game developer learn from its mistakes and improve its games? However, I believe Bellatrix was trying to get the point across that it was the manner in which the feedback was given that was... disheartening.

Trashing the game with biased user reviews and placing death threats (this actually happens) against the very people who brought you the Mass Effect series isn't exactly a proper way (in my opinion) of portraying your dislike for the game. It's these very actions that bring about the whole idea of fan "entitlement." Why not just post your thoughts in that thread that BioWare put up for fan suggestions?

As for the whole charity issue... It's great that so much money was gathered and given to Child's Play. It's great those cupcakes were given away to children by BioWare. However, why are charities even used in tandem with the Retake movement? If people say donating to a charity is a good thing, why does a charity even have to be connected to a cause related to Mass Effect? Why not just donate to the charity out of good will rather than to accomplish the goals of your own movement (i.e. 'buying' a new ending)?

[Daennikus]

I'm not someone who actively debates on the reasons why BioWare did what they did with ME3, and I'm not really interested in explaining the endings. Were they really a mistake?

But to answer the OP, on a purely psychological level what I see happening here is people who love something with all their heart, and they want to fight for what they love even though it's taking a wrong turn. They want to make things right and will continue fighting until they get exactly what they want. Which is, given the highly subjective nature of this emotional reaction, really not likely to happen.

Knowing how Mass Effect games have trained us, to beat impossible odds, to save the galaxy even though all seems lost, I don't think these people will ever give up protesting and being upset.

[Zolt51]

aimlessgun wrote...

We want Bioware to admit that they were wrong, that they screwed up and that the ending was bad. 

Yeah well I got two pieces of news for you:

They don't want to: they already poured 7 years of their life in Mass Effect, ten thousand precious hours of work, sweat, and love. They have no obligation to bend over for any kid who paid 60 bucks and didn't get the perfect ending he wanted.

They don't need to:  They already got your money. They can afford to lose 60 000 customers. And I'm sure half you whiners will get the next Bioware game to come out anyway. It's not like there are dozens of great RPG makers out there anyway. Worst case scenario is they'll give up RPG and switch to making call of duty style "railroad" games, Social-media enabled cat-grooming games. And they'll make more money that way too.

As long as there is even one person out there who's happy with what they did, they were not "wrong"

Modifié par Zolt51, 06 avril 2012 - 04:47 .

[shurikenmanta]

And that's another thing. This 'I spent 500 hours woe is me' thing.

You mean to tell me that you hated that 500 hours? That it was terrible, that all that time exploring the Mass Effect world and reading the codices and getting to know the characters and engaging what was, for 99.95% of its duration, an awesome story, is all for nothing and you hated every minute of it?

Hey, Africa. It's the first world. You win.

[PiEman]

Zolt51 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

We want Bioware to admit that they were wrong, that they screwed up and that the ending was bad. 

Yeah well I got two pieces of news for you:

They don't want to: they already poured 7 years of their life in Mass Effect, ten thousand precious hours of work, sweat, and love. They have no obligation to bend over for any kid who paid 60 bucks and didn't get the perfect ending he wanted.

They don't need to:  They already got your money. They can afford to lose 60 000 customers. And I'm sure half you whiners will get the next Bioware game to come out anyway. It's not like there are dozens of great RPG makers out there anyway. Worst case scenario is they'll give up RPG and switch to making call of duty style "railroad" games, Social-media enabled cat-grooming games. And they'll make more money that way too.

As long as there is even one person out there who's happy with what they did, they were not "wrong"

They. Half. Assed. The. En-. Ding.

How many times do I have to spell this out for you people?

[Zolt51]

PiEman wrote...

They. Half. Assed. The. En-. Ding.

How many times do I have to spell this out for you people?

9 billion and 63 times. Please.

Modifié par Zolt51, 06 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[Eterna]

JBONE27 wrote...

That's part of it. I think the other part is the insulting tone that was used in the press release.

Of course they're insulted. You sent them hundreads of cupcakes subtely insulting them and have held their forum hostage for a month. You've even gone as far to insult their employees and even wish death upon them. 

It may have been a minority, doesn't change the fact that the minority still reflects on you. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 06 avril 2012 - 04:55 .

[shurikenmanta]

PiEman wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

We want Bioware to admit that they were wrong, that they screwed up and that the ending was bad. 

Yeah well I got two pieces of news for you:

They don't want to: they already poured 7 years of their life in Mass Effect, ten thousand precious hours of work, sweat, and love. They have no obligation to bend over for any kid who paid 60 bucks and didn't get the perfect ending he wanted.

They don't need to:  They already got your money. They can afford to lose 60 000 customers. And I'm sure half you whiners will get the next Bioware game to come out anyway. It's not like there are dozens of great RPG makers out there anyway. Worst case scenario is they'll give up RPG and switch to making call of duty style "railroad" games, Social-media enabled cat-grooming games. And they'll make more money that way too.

As long as there is even one person out there who's happy with what they did, they were not "wrong"

They. Half. Assed. The. En-. Ding.

How many times do I have to spell this out for you people?

Yeah, and they say they didn't. It's your word against theirs, and they don't have a strong emotional reaction that could be clouding their judgement.