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The Psychological Reason People Are Still Upset?


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#101
PiEman

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shurikenmanta wrote...

PiEman wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

We want Bioware to admit that they were wrong, that they screwed up and that the ending was bad. 


Yeah well I got two pieces of news for you:

They don't want to: they already poured 7 years of their life in Mass Effect, ten thousand precious hours of work, sweat, and love. They have no obligation to bend over for any kid who paid 60 bucks and didn't get the perfect ending he wanted.

They don't need to:  They already got your money. They can afford to lose 60 000 customers. And I'm sure half you whiners will get the next Bioware game to come out anyway. It's not like there are dozens of great RPG makers out there anyway. Worst case scenario is they'll give up RPG and switch to making call of duty style "railroad" games, Social-media enabled cat-grooming games. And they'll make more money that way too.

As long as there is even one person out there who's happy with what they did, they were not "wrong"



They. Half. Assed. The. En-. Ding.

How many times do I have to spell this out for you people?


Yeah, and they say they didn't. It's your word against theirs, and they don't have a strong emotional reaction that could be clouding their judgement.


You'd think they would, since they keep calling that crap "art"...

#102
jds1bio

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It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?

#103
AnthonyDraft

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I don't think they screwed up the ending. The ending was final in all honesty, but it wasn't finished. Not in the terms that it gave a proper closure ala Dragon Age: Origins or ME2.

#104
PiEman

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Zolt51 wrote...

PiEman wrote...

They. Half. Assed. The. En-. Ding.

How many times do I have to spell this out for you people?


9 billion and 63 times. Please.


I swear, this is probably coincidence, but my physical desire to stab people I've never met with rusty ice picks has grown exponentially since I joined these forums <_<

#105
Endersoldier

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batlin wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Even ME1 and ME2 play out a certain way no matter WHAT choices you make (most game media does).  So outside of referencing a few of your crew/ally choices, WHAT could they possibly add to make the ending unique?  I mean outside of having thousands of differen't things for ALL choices in the game (which is NOT goign to happen no matter how many times you click your heels) what can they do OTHER than that in an epilogue?

Bottom line, no matter what choice they made for an ending, someone would not like it for whatever reason because SOMETHING important to them (not you) them was not included in the ending cinematic or whatever.  So outside of an expanded epilogue or extended scenes detailing perhaps MAJOR crew and ally results, could bioware possibly do?

I mean when it comes down to it, most of the differences would be a cutscene here or there realistically,


Here's the difference between ME1 and ME2's endings and ME3's:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Bioware advertised ME3's ending as being the exact opposite of what we were given. The plot holes, OOC Shepard, and the star brat? Icing on the s***ty cake.

This is false advertising through and through. It's also exploitative to once-loyal consumers. Can you honestly deny people have the right to be a little ticked off that they spent $60+ for a lie?


I won't deny your argument for the ABC ending as is, it is ultimately three endings that are more like one with VERY minor differences.  However, in today's news release by Bioware, Hudson used two terms to describe what was in the works: closure and personalized.  Now, for all we know this might be a promise not kept, but assuming they do end up keeping this promise, it is still very much possible for Bioware to radically enhance endings to correspond with the differences made by different players.  If they do indeed make personalized variations, then the ABC decision could ultimately turn into the final modifier for the aftermath, along with the War Assets, Readiness, and what ultimately happened to the characters heading into the final decision.  In this instance, there could be quite a few possibilities.

Going on my own tangent, and I don't expect Bioware to do this nor should they need to, if I were to change the ending in some way, I would not make radically drastic changes, but I would make three small alternatives to what is currently there.  The first one is to simply remove the Normandy scene and go with whatever else is on the table, simple enough.  

The other two has to do with starbrat: I personally don't mind his inclusion, but in order for him to truly work in my opinion, Bioware needs to add dialogue and allow the player to ask questions, in order to not only get a clearer picture, but to also allow the player to really think about what to do and get a chance to trump the little brat.  Since Bioware is mentioning an extension to the ending, this would be nice to have as it would be an extension of sorts.  On a side note, the brat should only ever explain the control and the synthesis choices: the destroy option would need to be something the player decides for himself without guidance.

The final change I would make is minor, but not without purpose: switch the positionings of option B and option C.  Now, I'm not 100% sure on how they would do this on a graphical level, but I think having the destroy ending in the middle would be symbolic and make more sense, since that was the path Shepard was always on and therefore would be fitting to have straight in front of him.  The synthesis and control endings would be departures from the path he was on, which is why I would put them on the sides, as this would symbolize diverging goals.

Anyway, that's how I would have done it, but unless my opinion changes drastically from playing the game myself instead of being a spectator, then these do not matter to me too much.  The main issue I had from watching my friend play the endings had to do with the game's closure, or the lack of it, and that was also something that upset him as well.  Plot holes be damned, I'm a right-brain kind of guy and could live with the endings as long as I saw the real consequences of my final decision, which would differ based on the other factors that came before.

And I'm done, sorry if I went on a bit too long.

Modifié par Endersoldier, 06 avril 2012 - 04:59 .


#106
shurikenmanta

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jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...

#107
Zolt51

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Zolt51 wrote...

PiEman wrote...

They. Half. Assed. The. En-. Ding.

How many times do I have to spell this out for you people?


9 billion and 63 times. Please.


Sracth that. I'll consider myself happy with 3.21 million times. That's the number of copies sold according to VGChartz.

#108
PiEman

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shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Again, you're missing the point.

This wasn't meant to be a fixed narrative, and the ending was repeatedly advertised as being much more than what it was. The endings we were given aren't even close to what people have been quoted on saying the endings will be. 

#109
Zolt51

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PiEman wrote...

I swear, this is probably coincidence, but my physical desire to stab people I've never met with rusty ice picks has grown exponentially since I joined these forums <_<


OH YEAH! Give me more angst please!

I don't normally enjoy trolling but you're just asking for it here.

#110
jds1bio

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shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Ok sure because you're probably thinking you didn't pay the storyteller, but in this case, you did.  Thrice.

But in any event, wouldn't you at least ask the storyteller, "Come on, what really happened?"

#111
jds1bio

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PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Again, you're missing the point.

This wasn't meant to be a fixed narrative, and the ending was repeatedly advertised as being much more than what it was. The endings we were given aren't even close to what people have been quoted on saying the endings will be. 


Yes.  Google "Mass Effect 3 GameInformer Hudson" and you can read the interview for yourself.

#112
shurikenmanta

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PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Again, you're missing the point.

This wasn't meant to be a fixed narrative, and the ending was repeatedly advertised as being much more than what it was. The endings we were given aren't even close to what people have been quoted on saying the endings will be. 


That's fairly subjective. The actual arguments about the ending (which I am not defending, for the record) are actually remarkably well constructed. There's not much that can't be backed up from a certain point of view.

The critiques aren't my problem. The melodrama is.

#113
PiEman

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shurikenmanta wrote...

PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Again, you're missing the point.

This wasn't meant to be a fixed narrative, and the ending was repeatedly advertised as being much more than what it was. The endings we were given aren't even close to what people have been quoted on saying the endings will be. 


That's fairly subjective. The actual arguments about the ending (which I am not defending, for the record) are actually remarkably well constructed. There's not much that can't be backed up from a certain point of view.

The critiques aren't my problem. The melodrama is.


"We make synthetics to kill you and preserve the DNA so you are not (on the off chance that the exact circumstances present themselves, as I assume they will) killed by synthetics."

How do you construct an argument to make sense of that?

#114
Zolt51

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shurikenmanta wrote...

I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Hahahaha ^^^^^ This. X 9 thousand.

#115
shurikenmanta

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jds1bio wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Ok sure because you're probably thinking you didn't pay the storyteller, but in this case, you did.  Thrice.

But in any event, wouldn't you at least ask the storyteller, "Come on, what really happened?"


Sure I would. And then when they say 'that really happened', I'd say 'OK, everything was great right up to the end' and walk away.

I wouldn't throw a tantrum and demand an apology and the storyteller admit he's a bad storyteller.

#116
shurikenmanta

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PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Again, you're missing the point.

This wasn't meant to be a fixed narrative, and the ending was repeatedly advertised as being much more than what it was. The endings we were given aren't even close to what people have been quoted on saying the endings will be. 


That's fairly subjective. The actual arguments about the ending (which I am not defending, for the record) are actually remarkably well constructed. There's not much that can't be backed up from a certain point of view.

The critiques aren't my problem. The melodrama is.


"We make synthetics to kill you and preserve the DNA so you are not (on the off chance that the exact circumstances present themselves, as I assume they will) killed by synthetics."

How do you construct an argument to make sense of that?


That doesn't have anything to do with what Bioware said to the media...

#117
Olueq

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BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

Or Bioware admits that they lied to us.

#118
PiEman

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shurikenmanta wrote...

PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

PiEman wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

It's not the number of hours itself...you've spent 100 or 500 hours WITH A STORYTELLER.

Yes, the storyteller told a great story for 99 hours and 55 minutes, but then in the last five minutes introduces out of nowhere a super-being that blows everything up, and ok THE END. Wouldn't you look at that storyteller and say, "Hey, what did you do that for?", and then feel sour about the whole story?


I probably would, but I wouldn't go demanding that storyteller give me back my time, apologise to me, tell me a better story, threaten to take them to Nursery Court, tell them that they've ****d themselves out, etc...


Again, you're missing the point.

This wasn't meant to be a fixed narrative, and the ending was repeatedly advertised as being much more than what it was. The endings we were given aren't even close to what people have been quoted on saying the endings will be. 


That's fairly subjective. The actual arguments about the ending (which I am not defending, for the record) are actually remarkably well constructed. There's not much that can't be backed up from a certain point of view.

The critiques aren't my problem. The melodrama is.


"We make synthetics to kill you and preserve the DNA so you are not (on the off chance that the exact circumstances present themselves, as I assume they will) killed by synthetics."

How do you construct an argument to make sense of that?


That doesn't have anything to do with what Bioware said to the media...


I was talking about the people here defending the endings.

That's what I thought you were talking about.

#119
jds1bio

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shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Ok sure because you're probably thinking you didn't pay the storyteller, but in this case, you did.  Thrice.

But in any event, wouldn't you at least ask the storyteller, "Come on, what really happened?"


Sure I would. And then when they say 'that really happened', I'd say 'OK, everything was great right up to the end' and walk away.

I wouldn't throw a tantrum and demand an apology and the storyteller admit he's a bad storyteller.


Ok, then what if the storyteller had told you two months before you paid him to tell the story, specifically that the ending wasn't going to involve blowing up everything, and you decided to pay him based on this information.  Because that essentially what happened in this case.

#120
Noelemahc

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shurikenmanta wrote...

And that there is the problem. You guys (yep, there's that word again!) think that you are somehow entitled to Bioware crawling on their hands and knees and apologising even if they legitimately felt that ending was what they intended to cap off their finale. That's like me demanding an apology from Stephanie Meyer because Twilight is balls.

As a writer, I think they were very generous, because quite frankly if it were me I'd probably pull a Hideaki Anno and deliberately make the ending more obscure to flip the bird and annoy people.


Not a good comparison. You'd be better off comparing it to demanding an apology from Stephen King for, say, his sequel to The Shining sucking balls. (Which it might not, as IIRC, he's not finished writing it yet)

With Stephanie Meyer there is no frame of reference because all she did WAS Twilight. There is a frame of reference with BioWare. We KNOW they are capable of making a satisfying and branching ending, because they have done it not once, not twice, not even thrice (regardless of how you feel about KotOR and NWN), but more, and they did it WELL. So, yeah, they half-assed the ending alright. We know what their previous best looks like, we know that ME3 was supposed to best that best. and it fell flat on its face instead.

If the ending was deliberately convoluted, I would've accepted that. I was one of the five people that genuinely liked the MGS2 ending as-is (mainly because I was one of the five people that played Metal Gear Ghost Babel which provides a lot of lead-in context for MGS2). You can complain about Hideo Kojima's directing style and preference for trolling his players as much as you want, but when the man makes an ending for his game, it's an ending that resolves as much plot threads as possible, leaving only just about enough for a tentative sequel hook. (Which, ironically, leads him to making more and more sequels, even though he wished to end the MG/S franchise with the original MGS, hence the trolling)

Unfortunately, what we got is an ending that was not thought through properly (if at all). Am I optmistic about the DLC? Hell yes, I do need the closure. Do I feel vindicated? Hell naw, they refuse to fix the main problem of the ending, the cheap cop-out. I try to not pass judgement too harshly because they are yet to specify the extent of the changes, but it's semi-obvious at this point that the Deus Ex Machina resolution is not going away. And as a writer, you're supposed to know that to make a Deus Ex Machina work, really work, you'd better be good at tap-dancing. And so far, there was no tap-dancing, only lots of jazz hands.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 06 avril 2012 - 05:19 .


#121
HenchxNarf

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BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....


I agree with this 100000000000%.

But, honestly, Bioware really has nothing to apologize for. They're giving clarification and explaining the endings. And it's free.

#122
shurikenmanta

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jds1bio wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Ok sure because you're probably thinking you didn't pay the storyteller, but in this case, you did.  Thrice.

But in any event, wouldn't you at least ask the storyteller, "Come on, what really happened?"


Sure I would. And then when they say 'that really happened', I'd say 'OK, everything was great right up to the end' and walk away.

I wouldn't throw a tantrum and demand an apology and the storyteller admit he's a bad storyteller.


Ok, then what if the storyteller had told you two months before you paid him to tell the story, specifically that the ending wasn't going to involve blowing up everything, and you decided to pay him based on this information.  Because that essentially what happened in this case.


Again, I'd be annoyed and let down, but I'd get over it.

Besides, it's not an accurate comparison. Bioware actually can logistically argue that there's *not* A , B or C endings. In raw semantics, try going in with bare minimum EMS and see what happens. Things are different, albeit in a tiny, tiny way.

It's underhanded, but you can't exactly say it's a lie.

#123
HenchxNarf

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Zolt51 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

We want Bioware to admit that they were wrong, that they screwed up and that the ending was bad. 


Yeah well I got two pieces of news for you:

They don't want to: they already poured 7 years of their life in Mass Effect, ten thousand precious hours of work, sweat, and love. They have no obligation to bend over for any kid who paid 60 bucks and didn't get the perfect ending he wanted.

They don't need to:  They already got your money. They can afford to lose 60 000 customers. And I'm sure half you whiners will get the next Bioware game to come out anyway. It's not like there are dozens of great RPG makers out there anyway. Worst case scenario is they'll give up RPG and switch to making call of duty style "railroad" games, Social-media enabled cat-grooming games. And they'll make more money that way too.

As long as there is even one person out there who's happy with what they did, they were not "wrong"



I'm happy with what they did :)

#124
Pirates10i

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JBONE27 wrote...

That's part of it. I think the other part is the insulting tone that was used in the press release.


Sorry disagree with you, normally I'm an easy going person and never complain just for the sake of complaining. This is just one of those things that genuinely have bothered me

#125
jds1bio

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shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Ok sure because you're probably thinking you didn't pay the storyteller, but in this case, you did.  Thrice.

But in any event, wouldn't you at least ask the storyteller, "Come on, what really happened?"


Sure I would. And then when they say 'that really happened', I'd say 'OK, everything was great right up to the end' and walk away.

I wouldn't throw a tantrum and demand an apology and the storyteller admit he's a bad storyteller.


Ok, then what if the storyteller had told you two months before you paid him to tell the story, specifically that the ending wasn't going to involve blowing up everything, and you decided to pay him based on this information.  Because that essentially what happened in this case.


Again, I'd be annoyed and let down, but I'd get over it.

Besides, it's not an accurate comparison. Bioware actually can logistically argue that there's *not* A , B or C endings. In raw semantics, try going in with bare minimum EMS and see what happens. Things are different, albeit in a tiny, tiny way.

It's underhanded, but you can't exactly say it's a lie.


Well, I have fought for and received refunds and exchanges for products that did not live up to their billing.  You are a customer and over and above just "getting over it", you have a right to receive a fair value exchange based on expectations set up by the product maker.

And, Low EMS is WORSE.  The final conversation is cut up and makes less sense, and Shepard doesn't get a choice of dialogue or option.  It's worse for the player in every conceivable way, and it sticks out very sorely from high EMS playthroughs.  For some people, this is the only ending they experience, and it's frankly jarring.