169 réponses à ce sujet

[BentOrgy]

The psychological reason?

People. Have. Opinions.

Wow, that was difficult.

[aimlessgun]

Nchopper wrote...

aimlessgun

This isn't a challenge or an attempt to stoke argument just a question out of curiosity, but did you for the most part, enjoy the game? Was it just the ending that tarnished it and would this post DLC stuff partially remedy your disappointment?

I ask because you seem like a reasoned sort and I see so many people so steadfastly defiant that it would seem Bioware would need to polish their cars in order to regain any respect. I was heavily emotionally invested in ME and though perhaps its not clever to admit it, I did well up a few times during the last game. I hold reservations over the very ending along with the rest of you, yet I don't feel this sense of utter betrayal that others do and I guess that's why I find the response so preposterous.

EDIT:
"This. Only with acknowledgement and apology, will BioWare ever be given the chance to redeem themselves. "

Things like this I mean, so much animosity.

I can't predict how I'll react to the DLC itself. I can only say that their presentation of it in this press release is not promising because they seem to be saying that at it's core, the ending is fine, which I don't agree with. 

Wanting them to admit wrong is not necessarily a totally justified or rational response, I'm just pointing out that it is there. We've had an argument with Bioware, and we enumerated our reasons for why the ending was bad, and now we want them to acknowledge our arguments, as if we're having a real dialogue. No car polishing necessary. 

[aimlessgun]

 As to the continuing arguments about them not screwing up: this is objectively untrue. 

With regards to the majority of their customers, they screwed up the ending. This cannot be 'untrue', you can't tell people "no, that ending actually satisfied you, your distress is not real".

With regards to themselves, they may or may not have screwed up the ending (we don't know what the other writers think, we only know that EA and Bioware corporate, Casey and Mac stand behind the endings). 

I think that they should care more about how their customers recieve the product than about how they recieve the product. I say that as someone who is trying to be a writer, knowing that the first rule of good writing is that you are writing for your audience, not yourself. 

Other people may disagree and say that it is more important that they satisfy themselves, or that the opinion of the majority is not that important and as long as a few people like the end, it's ok. 

But don't try to say that they didn't fail period. They failed me and they failed all my friends and they clearly failed many others. That's why this movement has legs. Normal, run of the mill failure doesn't get this level of support. This is such an broad case of failing their customers that we're still here talking about it. 

[Primalrose]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

I lol'd. It's so sad but true. The initial reactions by people here were almost worse then the crap Blizzard have to deal with on the WoW forums.

[HenchxNarf]

Primalrose wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

I lol'd. It's so sad but true. The initial reactions by people here were almost worse then the crap Blizzard have to deal with on the WoW forums.

Hell, the first week was worse than Halo and COD people combined.

Halo people were LAUGHING and making fun of RME. And coming from them? That's sad.

[iamzer0xx]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

[KevShep]

aimlessgun wrote...

PiEman wrote...

No, I'd be perfectly happy with more endings.

Doing serious work on the ending to the point of having new endings (like a 4th choice with Star Child) is an implicit admission of mistakes, I think. An implicit admission through alternate endings or retcons is definitely the best case scenario 

"Clarification" avoids implicit admission of mistakes. 

The star child is the biggest mistake. The liner three choices are the next.

[aimlessgun]

iamzer0xx wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Um........admit you guys went overboard with bad user reviews, disingenuous fundraisers to charities, and some death threats first....

Really, going to quote this troll again?

In case it wasn't clear, anyone who left mindless 0/10's was in the wrong. 
Anyone who threatened or demeaned Bioware employees was in the wrong. 
I'm not going to apologize that people gave money to charity. What is wrong with you. 

The anti-ending movement has repeatedly condemned extremists. We've already 'admitted' that they went overboard, many times. I can't apologize for it, because I won't apologize for something I didn't do and had no control over. 

Basically that post is a red herring that does nothing but troll. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 06 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

aimlessgun wrote...

With the announcement of free DLC to clarify/expand the ending of ME3

Wait... what?



//EDIT//READS NEWS

Partial Woot... the question still remains whether (considering that they aren't changing anything and just expending)... whether the ending can be made to make sense with only additional (likely voice-free) cinematics...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[Kilkia123]

aimlessgun wrote...

...we enumerated our reasons for why the ending was bad, and now we want
them to acknowledge our arguments, as if we're having a real dialogue.

With regards to the majority of their customers, they screwed up the ending. This cannot be 'untrue', you can't tell people "no, that ending actually satisfied you, your distress is not real".

I think that they should care more about how their customers recieve the product than about how they recieve the product. I say that as someone who is trying to be a writer, knowing that the first rule of good writing is that you are writing for your audience, not yourself. 

This is such an broad case of failing their customers that we're still here talking about it. 

Addressing the bolded part: Yes, you are writing for your audience, but you are also writing to express yourself through the medium. BioWare is acknowledging the arguments of its fanbase. This is seen through the updates Casey and Dr. Muzyka have given us, as well as this recent announcement of the Extended Cut DLC. Ultimately, this is the story that BioWare wanted to tell. Of course, not all of us will be happy with the result, but if we are going to be given free DLC that adds further closure to the ending, then I do not see why there is so much need for antagonism.

BioWare is one company that I always see addressing its fans and asking for feedback. Going back to your thread title, people (particularly those associated with the Retake movement) continue to be upset because the ending to this game is not going to be changed to meet their own ideas on how the game should end; these same people often overlook the fact that BioWare is actually giving an auspicious effort to address the concerns of its fanbase.

Stating that this is a "broad case of failing [customers]" is purely subjective, as there is no empirical data supporting the idea that ending-dislikers are in the majority (and vice versa for ending-supporters). However, from what I've read around the web and talked over with my friends, it is to my knowledge that many people are actually somewhere in-between the two trains of thought: they are quite okay with BioWare providing more closure to the ending rather than changing it outright or not changing anything at all.

I'm in the position in which I was already quite satisfied with Mass Effect 3 as a whole (yes, I was somewhat disappointed with the ending); this new DLC = more Mass Effect 3, and I'll be sure to replay the game when I have more time during the summer.

[lawp79]

I think biowares PR people have made it worse, the wording of the majority of their statements read like the hardcore fans are not intelligent enough to "get" the ending.

I can obviously not speak for everyone on these forums but having been around these forums and the old one ones since the ME1 days I am well aware of the emotional attachment a lot of the members here have with certain characters. Yes the ending made little sense but I think a huge number of fans could have forgiven that if there was say an extra 5mins where Shepard is reunited with his Li and squad. Yep it maybe a cliche but I think a lot of players yearned for it but now for various reasons it has gone beyond that partly because if the bad PR choices BW have made.

[aimlessgun]

Kilkia123 wrote...
Ultimately, this is the story that BioWare wanted to tell. Of course, not all of us will be happy with the result, but if we are going to be given free DLC that adds further closure to the ending, then I do not see why there is so much need for antagonism.

I appreciate your reasoned reply.  

I have to admit to a irrational belief here: I see so many glaring flaws with the ending that I can't believe that this really is the story that Bioware wanted to tell. Until I see honest statements from people who worked on the game (not PR people or Casey or corporate people like Muyzka, I want to hear from writers like Patrick Weekes for example), I don't know what they think about the ending.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 06 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[AlanC9]

aimlessgun wrote...
I have to admit to a irrational belief here: I see so many glaring flaws with the ending that I can't believe that this really is the story that Bioware wanted to tell.

So what's your theory, again? Bio was forced to make an ending you didn't like, because....

[newplayer64]

Someone please explain how the "people will always complain" argument is even a valid argument anymore? Are you that clouded by your idealism? OF COURSE PEOPLE COMPLAIN. I work in a restaurant, complaints are inevitable. But there is a stark difference between that being a vast minority (IE ME2 had haters too but you could tell it was a SMALL amount of people) versus blatant outrage by a large portion of your consumer base.

When the latter happens, you obviously did SOMETHING wrong. Stop trying to act like Bioware/EA did NOTHING wrong.

EDIT: And you guys with the THIS IS THE STORY BIOWARE WANTED TO TELL. Maybe, maybe not. But compare ME3 with everything else in the franchise. ME3 undenyably has the feel of a cash cow that was thrown together and given the least thought on all loose ends so that you can say you covered all the bases. Quick fixes thrown together everywhere. Exactly what the ending was. Something thrown together so you can say it ended and move on. Works with most other games, doesn't when you market a heightened sense of connection unprecedented in every other game on the market.

But I don't get why Bioware doesn't just say "sorry we messed up, we'll try to explain what we 'wanted' but that's just the way it is :("

Modifié par newplayer64, 06 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[Benny8484]

People are still upset because Bioware took a month to tell us what they had already stated, then told us "Were listening", only to re-tell us "Artistic Intergrity" which more or less reads "No profit in it." 

[aimlessgun]

AlanC9 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...
I have to admit to a irrational belief here: I see so many glaring flaws with the ending that I can't believe that this really is the story that Bioware wanted to tell.

So what's your theory, again? Bio was forced to make an ending you didn't like, because....

There's no theory, I'm just saying that all we've been given is PR speak from Casey or corporate, and those do not represent all of what the creative people who worked on the game think. We also know they were trying to nail down the ending until the very last minute, under enourmous deadline pressure. Everything beyond that is speculation which I won't indulge in here. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 06 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[jimbo32]

Noelemahc wrote...

Not a good comparison. You'd be better off comparing it to demanding an apology from Stephen King for, say, his sequel to The Shining sucking balls. (Which it might not, as IIRC, he's not finished writing it yet)

With Stephanie Meyer there is no frame of reference because all she did WAS Twilight. There is a frame of reference with BioWare. We KNOW they are capable of making a satisfying and branching ending, because they have done it not once, not twice, not even thrice (regardless of how you feel about KotOR and NWN), but more, and they did it WELL. So, yeah, they half-assed the ending alright. We know what their previous best looks like, we know that ME3 was supposed to best that best. and it fell flat on its face instead.

If the ending was deliberately convoluted, I would've accepted that. I was one of the five people that genuinely liked the MGS2 ending as-is (mainly because I was one of the five people that played Metal Gear Ghost Babel which provides a lot of lead-in context for MGS2). You can complain about Hideo Kojima's directing style and preference for trolling his players as much as you want, but when the man makes an ending for his game, it's an ending that resolves as much plot threads as possible, leaving only just about enough for a tentative sequel hook. (Which, ironically, leads him to making more and more sequels, even though he wished to end the MG/S franchise with the original MGS, hence the trolling)

Unfortunately, what we got is an ending that was not thought through properly (if at all). Am I optmistic about the DLC? Hell yes, I do need the closure. Do I feel vindicated? Hell naw, they refuse to fix the main problem of the ending, the cheap cop-out. I try to not pass judgement too harshly because they are yet to specify the extent of the changes, but it's semi-obvious at this point that the Deus Ex Machina resolution is not going away. And as a writer, you're supposed to know that to make a Deus Ex Machina work, really work, you'd better be good at tap-dancing. And so far, there was no tap-dancing, only lots of jazz hands.

Hah, the jazz hands analogy made me laugh. Good post.

By the way, I see a *lot* of end-defenders throwing around the death-threats thing, but I've never seen anything even close on BSN - and I've been around a lot since launch. Not so much as a "I hope Walters dies in a tragic Twister accident". Where are these so-called "facts" coming from?

[Endersoldier]

jimbo32 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

Not a good comparison. You'd be better off comparing it to demanding an apology from Stephen King for, say, his sequel to The Shining sucking balls. (Which it might not, as IIRC, he's not finished writing it yet)

With Stephanie Meyer there is no frame of reference because all she did WAS Twilight. There is a frame of reference with BioWare. We KNOW they are capable of making a satisfying and branching ending, because they have done it not once, not twice, not even thrice (regardless of how you feel about KotOR and NWN), but more, and they did it WELL. So, yeah, they half-assed the ending alright. We know what their previous best looks like, we know that ME3 was supposed to best that best. and it fell flat on its face instead.

If the ending was deliberately convoluted, I would've accepted that. I was one of the five people that genuinely liked the MGS2 ending as-is (mainly because I was one of the five people that played Metal Gear Ghost Babel which provides a lot of lead-in context for MGS2). You can complain about Hideo Kojima's directing style and preference for trolling his players as much as you want, but when the man makes an ending for his game, it's an ending that resolves as much plot threads as possible, leaving only just about enough for a tentative sequel hook. (Which, ironically, leads him to making more and more sequels, even though he wished to end the MG/S franchise with the original MGS, hence the trolling)

Unfortunately, what we got is an ending that was not thought through properly (if at all). Am I optmistic about the DLC? Hell yes, I do need the closure. Do I feel vindicated? Hell naw, they refuse to fix the main problem of the ending, the cheap cop-out. I try to not pass judgement too harshly because they are yet to specify the extent of the changes, but it's semi-obvious at this point that the Deus Ex Machina resolution is not going away. And as a writer, you're supposed to know that to make a Deus Ex Machina work, really work, you'd better be good at tap-dancing. And so far, there was no tap-dancing, only lots of jazz hands.

Hah, the jazz hands analogy made me laugh. Good post.

By the way, I see a *lot* of end-defenders throwing around the death-threats thing, but I've never seen anything even close on BSN - and I've been around a lot since launch. Not so much as a "I hope Walters dies in a tragic Twister accident". Where are these so-called "facts" coming from?

If I understood correctly, there were reports that employees received personal death threats directly, so I'd assume it would not be on here since it would be indirect.  Besides, I really doubt the people here who regularly post would do something stupid like that.  There are crazy people in the world, though, that much I know.

[jimbo32]

@Endersoldier:
So we "know" about some supposed death threats because BioWare told us they happened? Or did they put out a press release? (Not being facetious, I'm genuinely wondering)

[HenchxNarf]

jimbo32 wrote...

@Endersoldier:
So we "know" about some supposed death threats because BioWare told us they happened? Or did they put out a press release? (Not being facetious, I'm genuinely wondering)

Because they were put on BSN as well as Twitter. Some of us saw them and some of us had death threats on us personally.

[Noelemahc]

jimbo32 wrote...
Hah, the jazz hands analogy made me laugh. Good post.

By the way, I see a *lot* of end-defenders throwing around the death-threats thing, but I've never seen anything even close on BSN - and I've been around a lot since launch. Not so much as a "I hope Walters dies in a tragic Twister accident". Where are these so-called "facts" coming from?

Thanks, I've been practicing.

Most of the threat posts got banhammered and deletered. Most were very vague, but there were a few genuinely disturbing ones. The problem is that similar pro-ending posts are also deleted, and oftentimes as violently banhammered, which makes both sides look rather stupid when they try to fling examples of each others' misdeeds at each other because there's little evidence left. Well, except for speculations (echo in Garrus's voice: speculations, speculations, speculations).

[Endersoldier]

HenchxNarf wrote...

jimbo32 wrote...

@Endersoldier:
So we "know" about some supposed death threats because BioWare told us they happened? Or did they put out a press release? (Not being facetious, I'm genuinely wondering)

Because they were put on BSN as well as Twitter. Some of us saw them and some of us had death threats on us personally.

I'm actually pretty new to this cirus, although I have witnessed ME3 through a friend's playthrough (I'm finishing my semester before I actually play it), so other people are more likely to give you better responses.

[jimbo32]

Noelemahc wrote...

jimbo32 wrote...
Hah, the jazz hands analogy made me laugh. Good post.

By the way, I see a *lot* of end-defenders throwing around the death-threats thing, but I've never seen anything even close on BSN - and I've been around a lot since launch. Not so much as a "I hope Walters dies in a tragic Twister accident". Where are these so-called "facts" coming from?

Thanks, I've been practicing.

Most of the threat posts got banhammered and deletered. Most were very vague, but there were a few genuinely disturbing ones. The problem is that similar pro-ending posts are also deleted, and oftentimes as violently banhammered, which makes both sides look rather stupid when they try to fling examples of each others' misdeeds at each other because there's little evidence left. Well, except for speculations (echo in Garrus's voice: speculations, speculations, speculations).

Yeah. To be perfectly honest, if I try to look at a lot of the threads in an objective board-mod way (speaking as a Guild Wars Guru mod), I see way more trolling and rudeness from pro-enders. Not that everyone who likes the ending is an ass by an means, but there are some who seem to delight in stirring up sh!t. Interestingly, it seems more prevalent on the General board since you need to have registered the game to post on the Storyline one.

But yeah, I think everyone could do with toning down the hyperbole and personal attacks a few notches.

[Nomen Mendax]

Benny8484 wrote...

People are still upset because Bioware took a month to tell us what they had already stated, then told us "Were listening", only to re-tell us "Artistic Intergrity" which more or less reads "No profit in it." 

Personally I'd be happy with them saying that they aren't making a new ending because there is "no profit in it" since I think that is a perfectly sensible reason.

It's also much more reasonable than all of the nonsense about artistic vision that I've read (both from Bioware and from many people on this forum).

When it comes down to it saying that they aren't going to make a new ending because they are happy with their artistic vison is basically the same as saying they aren't going to make a new ending because they don't want to, which is hardly likely to mollify anyone who dislikes the current endings.

[Beti88]

Instead of 10 minutes of backstabbing, we will now have 20

Yay