215 réponses à ce sujet

[JeosDinas]

I was unaware that we all had a binding contract with BioWare to make the game to our specifications. Don't lie to yourself. You didn't commission this game. You have no license over the intellectual property. Not even through purchase of previous products or invested time. If you decided to buy into hype and build up your expectations, that's your fault. No one put a gun to your head and made you buy this game.

[Icinix]

JeosDinas wrote...

I was unaware that we all had a binding contract with BioWare to make the game to our specifications. Don't lie to yourself. You didn't commission this game. You have no license over the intellectual property. Not even through purchase of previous products or invested time. If you decided to buy into hype and build up your expectations, that's your fault. No one put a gun to your head and made you buy this game.

No, but if marketing swayed our opinions and interviews, advetisements and reviews that missed elements and drooled all over the game impacted our purchasing decisions and indeed even our expectations.

Then consumers have been screwed over royally and a very bad business move has been made.

If people defend it and say 'marketing always lies' etc. Then we're in a lot of trouble.

[BiancoAngelo7]

JeosDinas wrote...

I was unaware that we all had a binding contract with BioWare to make the game to our specifications. Don't lie to yourself. You didn't commission this game. You have no license over the intellectual property. Not even through purchase of previous products or invested time. If you decided to buy into hype and build up your expectations, that's your fault. No one put a gun to your head and made you buy this game.

First of all, I didn't buy the game. Second of all, your logic is a fallacy and unfounded. There is indeed something called "customer expectations" and a producer of a product can and often does indeed betray those expectations, essentially giving them something less than what they deserve.

Let me ask you something.

If you went to a restaraunt, ordered a 50$ filet mignon, it was absolutely delicious and then right before you get to the last bite you found a big ol cockroach INSIDE the last portion of the steak, would you uphold your same argument?

Or would you spout your superiority to yourself and others, telling them that the steak was made by the chef who is an "artist" and it's made the way it is. I mean, you don't deserver anything. The chef makes it how he wants to, and that's that. Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean you get to not pay for your steak, or get another steak? Right? Oh wait....

Your argument holds no water. Just as so many others have blindly defended Bioware as if their PR dep. isn't enough, you provide nothing but judgement while contributing only to create a needless argument.

If Bioware takes money for a product, then it is ABSOLUTELY VALID for the consumer to expect a level of professionalism and quality for that fee. NO ONE is saying "the ending didn't go the way I imagined it would" what people ARE saying is "the ending is extremely low quality, full of plot holes, gives no valid conclusion to the series, and effectively INVALIDATES the previous 5 years of Mass Effect story telling".

Those are two VERY different complaints. Something that you seem to have misunderstood. <_<

[JeosDinas]

You misunderstand. A purchase is a choice. Be it a book, a movie, a game, or any type of experience. And with choice comes an associated risk. All consumed entertainment is experienced with the understanding that it might not completely satisfy. Arguing "I was stupid and bought into every word they said" does little more than point out how foolish you were to do so.

Again: you did not commission this piece of entertainment to meet your specific criteria nor did you say "Alright. I'll buy this but only if it has x, y, and z". You enjoyed previous media. You used that as a barometer. And you made your purchase. It basically ends there.

As to this question:

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...
If you went to a restaraunt, ordered a 50$ filet mignon, it was absolutely delicious and then right before you get to the last bite you found a big ol cockroach INSIDE the last portion of the steak, would you uphold your same argument?

 

What I would do, since I've consumed my meal, is potentially ask for my money back and, if need be, not eat at that establishment again. Incidentally, both these options are open to you right now as a consumer. Then again, I think your analogy is fairly poor. Diseased food can cause me actual harm. A video game's ending cannot.

Modifié par JeosDinas, 06 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[Darkeus]

JeosDinas wrote...

I was unaware that we all had a binding contract with BioWare to make the game to our specifications. Don't lie to yourself. You didn't commission this game. You have no license over the intellectual property. Not even through purchase of previous products or invested time. If you decided to buy into hype and build up your expectations, that's your fault. No one put a gun to your head and made you buy this game.

Logical fallacy....

But believe what you want.  You are the type of customer corporations love.

[JeosDinas]

Darkeus wrote...
Logical fallacy....

But believe what you want.  You are the type of customer corporations love.

You just say things to say them, I assume. Yes, corporations love me. Especially the ones I boycott. Which, by the way, I encourage people to do to BioWare and EA if they truly are as outraged as they claim. But I somehow doubt most people will do.

For the record, screaming the phrase "Logical Fallacy!" doesn't really accomplish anything. Except for, say, making peopel question if you know what a logical fallacy is.

Modifié par JeosDinas, 06 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[DJBare]

JeosDinas wrote...
What I would do, since I've consumed my meal, is potentially ask for my money back and, if need be, not eat at that establishment again. Incidentally, both these options are open to you right now as a consumer. Then again, I think your analogy is fairly poor. Diseased food can cause me actual harm. A video game's ending cannot.

That's not strictly speaking true, but the company cannot be held responsible for the emotional state of individual players.

[Nab20]

beutelmarkus wrote...

Nab20 wrote...

The IT cannot explain many things. Saying '' it's a dream because it doesn't make sense'' is not an argument.

What can't it explain?  

People bring up the indoctrination detection of Kai Leng on Thessia, but I think it's likely that indoctrination hadn't begun yet at this point for Shepard.  I see the recognition of the indoctrination of Kai Leng as almost a red herring of sorts - which Bioware put there specifically to show the player that Shepard was still in full control, (while at the same time bringing the indoctrination mechanic back to the forefront of players' minds).

Why do we get a message saying that we saved the galaxy at the end of the credits if we choosed the blue or green ending. The game is basicaly lying to us ? Letting us believe something false ?

And why are the reapers showing us the result of our choices ? Especially if choosed to destroy them ?

Also the IT is saying that the reapers are trying to convince us to choose the blue or green path. But in fact, it's not a big dilema for a renagde Shepard. The choice is pretty simple for him.

And what's the point with Joker's scene ? The writers obviously had a reason to write that scene. You can't just say that it's a dream and that's it. Without any further explanations.



Also sorry for my english.

Modifié par Nab20, 06 avril 2012 - 06:59 .

[Suikoden]

Nab20 wrote...

beutelmarkus wrote...

Nab20 wrote...

The IT cannot explain many things. Saying '' it's a dream because it doesn't make sense'' is not an argument.

What can't it explain?  

People bring up the indoctrination detection of Kai Leng on Thessia, but I think it's likely that indoctrination hadn't begun yet at this point for Shepard.  I see the recognition of the indoctrination of Kai Leng as almost a red herring of sorts - which Bioware put there specifically to show the player that Shepard was still in full control, (while at the same time bringing the indoctrination mechanic back to the forefront of players' minds).

Why do we get a message saying that we saved the galaxy at the end of the credits if we choosed the blue or green ending. The game is basicaly lying to us ? Letting us believe something false ?

And why are the reapers showing us the result of our choices ? Especially if choosed to destroy them ?

Also the IT is saying that the reapers are trying to convince us to choose the blue or green path. But in fact, it's not a big dilema for a renagde Shepard. The choice is pretty simple for him.

And what's the point with Joker's scene ? The writers obviously had a reason to write that scene. You can't just say that it's a dream and that's it. Without any further explanations.



Also sorry for my english.

I don't remember that message coming up - but if I run with the indoctrination theory - the thing that's really unique about it is that it's also attempting to indoctrinate the player, so yes - I'd say the game is lying to you (and Bioware has used mechanics like this before in one of the old Neverwinter Nights expansions - Hordes of the Underdark I believe).

I couldn't tell you exactly how indoctrination works or plays out, but as far as the Reapers showing us the results of our choices, I think it's all a matter of getting Shepard/us to go along willingly with their plans through their indoctrination attempt.  If there's still a part of Shepard that's alive and kicking, he'll/she'll choose the destroy option - and at that point he/she is better off dead to them than indoctrinated.  But if they can indoctrinate Shepard so he/she's under their influence without realizing it - he/she would represent a superior tool for them in furthering their agenda.

As for the renegade option being a simple choice - I don't think it's ever an easy choice to make, even if you were playing a more-or-less pure renegade, as the other 2 options are extremely enticing and probably almost seem more renegade then the red/destroy option.  I think Bioware attempted to muddy our perception here by showing Anderson take the renegade option, and TIM take the Paragon option - both of which would seem to be the exact opposite of what they'd choose based on their personalities.  (And here I'm talking about the renegade and paragon red/blue colors, and not the action associated with the colors - as that juxtaposition futher complicates the situation).

As for the Joker scene - I see that as part of the indoctrination attempt, in that Shepard thinks his/her crew (and most importantly his/her love interest) made it out of there safely provided the shuttle door opens and they step out of it.  If it only partially opens, (like when you have a low EMS), I think this signifies the indoctrination attempt failing due to Shepard dying from the entire ordeal.

Just my thoughts and opinions on the matter - not claiming any of this to be fact.

Modifié par beutelmarkus, 06 avril 2012 - 07:35 .

[AlanC9]

beutelmarkus wrote...
I don't remember that message coming up - but if I run with the indoctrination theory - the thing that's really unique about it is that it's also attempting to indoctrinate the player, so yes - I'd say the game is lying to you (and Bioware has used mechanics like this before in one of the old Neverwinter Nights expansions - Hordes of the Underdark I believe).

Doesn't ring a bell. Do you remember any specifics about what Bio did that time?

[Suikoden]

AlanC9 wrote...

beutelmarkus wrote...
I don't remember that message coming up - but if I run with the indoctrination theory - the thing that's really unique about it is that it's also attempting to indoctrinate the player, so yes - I'd say the game is lying to you (and Bioware has used mechanics like this before in one of the old Neverwinter Nights expansions - Hordes of the Underdark I believe).

Doesn't ring a bell. Do you remember any specifics about what Bio did that time?

It's talked about in this thread.
http://social.biowar...ndex/10973597/1

[Hevilath]

I have finished ME1 and ME2 (again;) just before release date of ME3. Then I have finished ME3 - 90% was very or just good game - ending was devastating, full of plot holes, inconsistencies and just plain stupid. Then I read about IT and I was crushed. If it's true, then Bioware indoctrinated us all. That is something that never happened in gaming history and open minded people should and will appreciate the fact. Those of us who think that IT is real will survive the rest is gonna to die. I hope that IT is true I really do, and Extended Cut show us what really happened to characters we used to love during our time spend with trilogy. Yes, I still have faith, but I will not buy another DLC and play any Mass Effect game until it becomes clear and explained. If Indoctrination Theory was fake, if it was just our delusion made by our minds not accepting the fact that Bioware could damage that badly ME franchise then I will say farewell to Bioware games and sell them on Ebay with money going to charity.

Modifié par Hevilath, 06 avril 2012 - 08:37 .

[Tirigon]

Yea call me a troll but I will be honest:
You are lying to yourself, nothing more.

The Indoctrination Theory IS wrong. Those of us who dont like conspiracy theories knew it from the start, and the DLC announcement as well as "Mas Effect: Final Hours" should have made it obvious to the believers as well.

[Hevilath]

No, I'm not calling anyone troll. I appriciate your opinion and 'I will defend it with my life', I'm also not 'conspiracy' guy I just can't believe that EA corrupted Bioware so badly.  

Tirigon wrote...

Yea call me a troll but I will be honest:
You are lying to yourself, nothing more.

The Indoctrination Theory IS wrong. Those of us who dont like conspiracy theories knew it from the start, and the DLC announcement as well as "Mas Effect: Final Hours" should have made it obvious to the believers as well.

[Peregrin25]

If people want to keep having hopes that something will come of it. I say let them have their say and hope. Somewhere deep down I still hope even though chances are slim it won't happen.

[Tirigon]

Hevilath wrote...

No, I'm not calling anyone troll. I appriciate your opinion and 'I will defend it with my life', I'm also not 'conspiracy' guy I just can't believe that EA corrupted Bioware so badly. 

And I cant believe how people actually fell for N@zi propaganda back in the 1930s. Nevertheless, it is a historical fact and only r*tards deny it.


Stupid example, I know, but the point is: Only because you cant believe something this does not mean it cant happen.

[AlanC9]

Hevilath wrote...

No, I'm not calling anyone troll. I appriciate your opinion and 'I will defend it with my life', I'm also not 'conspiracy' guy I just can't believe that EA corrupted Bioware so badly.  

EA had nothing to do with this -- unless your problem with the ending is that Bio didn't make more cutscenes for it, which EA didn't give them the money to do.

[offensivename3730121]

 social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/11078124

[Hevilath]

It's always about money. Let's speculate on one fact. In production cycle Bioware have awsome ideas how to end this game in ME2 style, but to do that they needed 6 more months, and EA said: no f*** way, we want moar money (think: Project Ten Dollar) - you will release this game in one month. Then what Bioware can possibly do? Make crappy ending with hope that guy like me will explain to himself ending was just Indoctrination Theory.

And now EA found herself on Damage Control phase

AlanC9 wrote...

Hevilath wrote...

No, I'm not calling anyone troll. I appriciate your opinion and 'I will defend it with my life', I'm also not 'conspiracy' guy I just can't believe that EA corrupted Bioware so badly.  

EA had nothing to do with this -- unless your problem with the ending is that Bio didn't make more cutscenes for it, which EA didn't give them the money to do.

[AlanC9]

Hevilath wrote...

It's always about money. Let's speculate on one fact. In production cycle Bioware have awsome ideas how to end this game in ME2 style, but to do that they needed 6 more months, and EA said: no f*** way, we want moar money (think: Project Ten Dollar) - you will release this game in one month. Then what Bioware can possibly do? Make crappy ending with hope that guy like me will explain to himself ending was just Indoctrination Theory.

This is silly. You think the ending is the last part of the game to be worked on? Or are you speculating that maybe Bio had a bad idea all along, suddenly had a great idea very late in the process, but EA wouldn't let them blow the existing schedule to make the good ending?

What makes you think Bio ever had an idea for the ending that you would like?

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 avril 2012 - 09:27 .

[nikki191]

aww you poor little muppet you hold on to your faith, while i dont think it will happen you never know

[Hevilath]

I'm just trying to say that deadline could be one possibility. And you have a point here - making game or other kind of software so complicated in extreme programming methodology sound stupid but unfortunetely it looks like Bioware have pull that in these manner at least when we talking about ME3 ending  

Like I said in another topic: We will know if Indoctrination Theory is true soon enough.  

And yes I am EA hater. It's seems that every studio EA bought is either closed or consumed by 'evil'. But it's OT let's doesn't trash this thread. 

AlanC9 wrote...

Hevilath wrote...

It's always about money. Let's speculate on one fact. In production cycle Bioware have awsome ideas how to end this game in ME2 style, but to do that they needed 6 more months, and EA said: no f*** way, we want moar money (think: Project Ten Dollar) - you will release this game in one month. Then what Bioware can possibly do? Make crappy ending with hope that guy like me will explain to himself ending was just Indoctrination Theory.

This is silly. You think the ending is the last part of the game to be worked on? Or are you speculating that maybe Bio had a bad idea all along, suddenly had a great idea very late in the process, but EA wouldn't let them blow the existing schedule to make the good ending?

What makes you think Bio ever had an idea for the ending that you would like?

Modifié par Hevilath, 06 avril 2012 - 10:20 .

[AlanC9]

The main problem for the theory is that the voice acting happens relatively early in the process. Even if the deadline was shortened or something that still means that the Starchild was in the game from very early on. So that means the RGB endings were in too.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[WhereisBaoDur]

IT is the only explanation to make some sense so far. And they said indoctrination would play a role in ME3, right? so? jack easter egg and the big stupid jellyfish? I mean, they did it right with Shiala, and Tanoptis, in the emails, but it would seem, i dunno, not quite enough. So suddenly the reapers are just big starships with a powerful claxon. that is it.

[BiancoAngelo7]

WhereisBaoDur wrote...

IT is the only explanation to make some sense so far. And they said indoctrination would play a role in ME3, right? so? jack easter egg and the big stupid jellyfish? I mean, they did it right with Shiala, and Tanoptis, in the emails, but it would seem, i dunno, not quite enough. So suddenly the reapers are just big starships with a powerful claxon. that is it.

Yeah not to mention that as well. All along we're beat over the head with how the Reapers are this thing beyond our comprehension that not only are devastating war machines but also enslave organics just by being in proximity with them.

So if IT theory isn't true, then basically they got turned into big as* spaceships with a space horn? To go beep beep when they need to signal they're switching lanes?

I can't believe that...I just can't.