215 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebbe1337o]

There's proof that it was canon at first. The model of starchild in the files is named "Harbingerchild" or something like that.

[Ivoryhammer]

It makes too much sense for it not to be. Like in the end when Shepard is walking towards the beam, if you look behind you you can see trees that weren't there before, but were in your dreams, where did they come from? And Anderson is somehow on the Citidel, how did he get there? And why did Hackett talk to us on the Citadel? I thought he thought we were dead. And why does Shepard bleed from his left if he was shot on his right by Marauder Shields? It just doesn't add up. And why are Joker and your other squadmates running away from Earth?

[Tymvir]

Ivoryhammer wrote...

It makes too much sense for it not to be. Like in the end when Shepard is walking towards the beam, if you look behind you you can see trees that weren't there before, but were in your dreams, where did they come from? And Anderson is somehow on the Citidel, how did he get there? And why did Hackett talk to us on the Citadel? I thought he thought we were dead. And why does Shepard bleed from his left if he was shot on his right by Marauder Shields? It just doesn't add up. And why are Joker and your other squadmates running away from Earth?

The dreams could simply be PTSD, which is common for soldiers. There are some conversations about that in the hospital. There are open questions and inconsistencies, but the same would be true if you accept the IT, e.g. the Prothean VI not detecting indoctrination in Shepard, "red" being the only ending for the worst EMS scores etc.

Modifié par Tymvir, 08 avril 2012 - 10:23 .

[Ivoryhammer]

Tymvir wrote...

Ivoryhammer wrote...

It makes too much sense for it not to be. Like in the end when Shepard is walking towards the beam, if you look behind you you can see trees that weren't there before, but were in your dreams, where did they come from? And Anderson is somehow on the Citidel, how did he get there? And why did Hackett talk to us on the Citadel? I thought he thought we were dead. And why does Shepard bleed from his left if he was shot on his right by Marauder Shields? It just doesn't add up. And why are Joker and your other squadmates running away from Earth?

The dreams could simply be PTSD, which is common for soldiers. There are some conversations about that in the hospital. There are open questions and inconsistencies, but the same would be true if you accept the IT, e.g. the Prothean VI not recognizing indoctrination in Shepard, "red" being the only ending for the worst EMS scores etc.

Well Red "destroy" forced with low EMS kind of makes sense, because if according to the theory, Shepard becomes a husk like thing is he chooses control or fuse. If his score is too low maybe the Reapers think Shepard won't be a big enough asset, so they let him go. That's how I interpreted it, the only thing that I believe kind of debunks the theory is the Prothean VI not picking it up, but maybe the influence on Shepard was so slight at that point because of his willpower. The loss of Thessia was very hard on him and may have weakened his will.

[Abraham_uk]

Darkeus wrote...

You guys do realize that if IT is true then they:

A. Sold you an incomplete and rushed game

or

B. Just cribbed a fan theory as their own so that they could cover their asses.

Any which way, it does not say much for the integrity of the company....

Neither A or B bother me that much. Sorry bro.

I'd rather that than Star Child, exploding mass relays and Joker abandoning Shepard actually happened.

[CashGrab]

Doesn't matter to me even if they come out and say its false, tahts the beauty of headcanon. This is the pandoras box they opened when they said they wanted 'speculation', people ignoring their ending and coming up with their own.

[Aleya]

Ivoryhammer wrote...

Well Red "destroy" forced with low EMS kind of makes sense, because if according to the theory, Shepard becomes a husk like thing is he chooses control or fuse. If his score is too low maybe the Reapers think Shepard won't be a big enough asset, so they let him go. That's how I interpreted it, the only thing that I believe kind of debunks the theory is the Prothean VI not picking it up, but maybe the influence on Shepard was so slight at that point because of his willpower. The loss of Thessia was very hard on him and may have weakened his will.

Personally I figured the VI only picks up on full indoctrination, when the subject has already begun to physically change. It didn't catch the Prothean infiltrators 50,000 years ago either. Javik mentions that they managed to cause a *lot* of damage before they were stopped, that wouldn't have been possible if the Protheans had VIs capable of detecting them.

As for the low EMS score ending... it actually depends on whether you destroyed the Collector base or not. A Shepard who preserved the base will only have access to "control" if EMS is too low.
The way I see it with low EMS Shepard is fighting truly impossible odds, it all comes down to her, and she's unwilling to consider a different path at this point. Basically the more dire the situation the stronger Shepard's determination to continue with the course she set a year ago. A Shepard who feels like she's got a decent chance of winning might be arrogant enough to consider other options (control despite a destroyed base) or confident enough to try something else (destroy despite a preserved base). I could be completely wrong of course, but until I get a better explanation that's my headcanon.

[Ivoryhammer]

Aleya wrote...


Personally I figured the VI only picks up on full indoctrination, when the subject has already begun to physically change. It didn't catch the Prothean infiltrators 50,000 years ago either. Javik mentions that they managed to cause a *lot* of damage before they were stopped, that wouldn't have been possible if the Protheans had VIs capable of detecting them.

As for the low EMS score ending... it actually depends on whether you destroyed the Collector base or not. A Shepard who preserved the base will only have access to "control" if EMS is too low.
The way I see it with low EMS Shepard is fighting truly impossible odds, it all comes down to her, and she's unwilling to consider a different path at this point. Basically the more dire the situation the stronger Shepard's determination to continue with the course she set a year ago. A Shepard who feels like she's got a decent chance of winning might be arrogant enough to consider other options (control despite a destroyed base) or confident enough to try something else (destroy despite a preserved base). I could be completely wrong of course, but until I get a better explanation that's my headcanon.

Good point, I didn't think of it that way

[Drake-Shepard]

Ivoryhammer wrote...

Aleya wrote...


Personally I figured the VI only picks up on full indoctrination, when the subject has already begun to physically change. It didn't catch the Prothean infiltrators 50,000 years ago either. Javik mentions that they managed to cause a *lot* of damage before they were stopped, that wouldn't have been possible if the Protheans had VIs capable of detecting them.

As for the low EMS score ending... it actually depends on whether you destroyed the Collector base or not. A Shepard who preserved the base will only have access to "control" if EMS is too low.
The way I see it with low EMS Shepard is fighting truly impossible odds, it all comes down to her, and she's unwilling to consider a different path at this point. Basically the more dire the situation the stronger Shepard's determination to continue with the course she set a year ago. A Shepard who feels like she's got a decent chance of winning might be arrogant enough to consider other options (control despite a destroyed base) or confident enough to try something else (destroy despite a preserved base). I could be completely wrong of course, but until I get a better explanation that's my headcanon.

Good point, I didn't think of it that way

I interpet it as if you tried to 'control' the collector base, you are already partly down the path of trying to control the reapers and their tech. Hence easier to get the control option. Hence further down the indoctrination path and resisting it less.

Its also curious that controling the collector base is considered the renegade option yet control the reaper is painted blue to make it appear as the paragon option. Further pointing towards the ending being indoctrination or a manipulation at the least to make you pick the wrong choice. (because the renegade option unlocks the perceived paragon option in the next game and vis versa - this must be on purpose?!)

Either amazing writing or the other theory where they scrapted indoc completely but remnants of the indoc and building it up were left in the game. Then they added javik convo's and reaper on rannoch convo to reflect the 'chao's theory'. Why would they do this? I don't know.-maybe they ran out of time with the complexity of it and further gameplay? But quickly writing a new ending actually saved time and money?!

edit. a full script on indoc and after storyline must be somewhere. Prob hidden away on Mat or casey's laptop..... I wants it!

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 08 avril 2012 - 11:06 .

[zsom]

Sigh... on some level I actually admire you. Must be nice to have such faith in something so utterly impossible. But I also feel sorry for you, because you are in for another major disappointment.

However I don't see why you would stop playing to other two games because of a bad ending to this one. Just enjoy the game, all the options it gives you, explore the characters. ME is a wonderful universe to experience in spite of the endings.

[BiancoAngelo7]

zsom wrote...

Sigh... on some level I actually admire you. Must be nice to have such faith in something so utterly impossible. But I also feel sorry for you, because you are in for another major disappointment.

However I don't see why you would stop playing to other two games because of a bad ending to this one. Just enjoy the game, all the options it gives you, explore the characters. ME is a wonderful universe to experience in spite of the endings.

I appreciate your kind words, and I acknowledge your valid opinion, I accept that most likely, as you say, I will be in for another major disappoinment...(along with many others)

But I just can't lose hope and my faith in the ME series...not yet.

And I am rediscovering the series in the meantime they come out with the CE. I booted up ME1 to make some new choices, relive the experience and visit those gorgeous planetside missions that made you feel like you were really IN the galaxy of Mass Effect.

Hopefully, by the time I'm done with making my new choices all the way through to the ...."end" of 3, then the CE will be coming out (my job and life will set the pacing for finishing the playthroughs) and my faith will be rewarded.

If not...well, it's been fun, but that will be the last Bioware or anyone else sees of me, that's for certain.

[AlanC9]

Why are people bothering to argue? This thread is Exactly What It Says on the Tin. The OP is beyond rational argument, and has plainly stated so in the title.

[Dridengx]

Good for your OP. It's your ending let it be so. headcanon or not right? good news for you is Bioware has not denied claims that IT is true, so not only is it your ending, but its still potentially canon as well. hold on to that if need be.

batlin wrote...

The Indoctrination theory makes *more* sense than tking the ending at face value, but come on. "It was all a dream"? That's a horrible ending in of itself. I can't believe people even consider that to be ideal...

I think your sig is quite humorous. People didn't want L4D2 and they got it. People wanted Episode 3, didn't get it. People wanted Half Life 3, didn't get it. Valve made a killing off mods and steam that's it. Portal the mini game was a success out of nowhere thanks to orange box which again was just a repackaging of HL2. Valve gets so much credit because they are one of the last PC companies so people cling to them like gods.

[BiancoAngelo7]

AlanC9 wrote...

Why are people bothering to argue? This thread is Exactly What It Says on the Tin. The OP is beyond rational argument, and has plainly stated so in the title.

Dude, if you read my first post, my conviction in the IT theory isn't me telling other people "that's how it is, end of story".
I wrote it more in the sense of just expressing my hope and faith in what is my opinion, is the only thing that could salvage the ME3 ending. You can feel free to debate, argue or consider anything you like.

If someone had evidence to actually disprove the IT ending, I would welcome it, I prefer to know one way or the other rather than just hope blindly. However, so far there hasn't been any official confirmation either way. So until Bioware says its not true, or the dlc comes out and its not true, I will continue to hope.

[Aleya]

Shelmusk wrote...

I think it's just sloppy storytelling and general laziness. As I said earlier, if BioWare is really smart they'll use IT to fix the mess, but I don't believe it was ever intended to be that way.

Then why the hallucinations at the very beginning? I never believed for a second that the kid was really there during the initial Reaper attack on Earth, and this was long before it ever occurred to me that Shepard might be undergoing indoctrination.

It's true, pretty much everything IT is based on can be attributed to sloppyness/laziness, but not the kid-that-never-existed.

One question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to: without IT, how do you explain Shepard randomly hallucinating a kid and then dreaming about him (twice, and in a manner that matches the codex description of indoctrination) and then the Starchild just happening to choose that form? 

Modifié par Aleya, 08 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Tymvir]

Aleya wrote...

Shelmusk wrote...

I think it's just sloppy storytelling and general laziness. As I said earlier, if BioWare is really smart they'll use IT to fix the mess, but I don't believe it was ever intended to be that way.

Then why the hallucinations at the very beginning? I never believed for a second that the kid was really there during the initial Reaper attack on Earth, and this was long before it ever occurred to me that Shepard might be undergoing indoctrination.

It's true, pretty much everything IT is based on can be attributed to sloppyness/laziness, but not the kid-that-never-existed.

One question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to: without IT, how do you explain Shepard randomly hallucinating a kid and then dreaming about him (twice, and in a manner that matches the codex description of indoctrination) and then the Starchild just happening to choose that form? 

PTSD and reused model.

"The most common positive symptoms were:

[...]Seeing something that others could not see (19.8%)"

it seems the endings had a traumatic effect on many players:
"Believing that their behaviors and thoughts were being controlled by some power or force (10%)" 

Modifié par Tymvir, 08 avril 2012 - 10:17 .

[Merwanor]

No matter what if Indoc Thoery is true or not, because of how nonsensical the ending is, you can make them mean exactly what you want.

I kind of like the fact that the meaning behind the ending was made by the fans instead of the developers.

[Aleya]

Tymvir wrote...

PTSD and reused model.

"The most common positive symptoms were:

[...]Seeing something that others could not see (19.8%)"

oh and
"Believing that their behaviors and thoughts were being controlled by some power or force (10%)" 

Huh, never knew that was a symptom of PTSD. Guess that makes sense too, since with everything Shepard's been through it'd be a miracle worthy of space magic if she *doesn't* have PTSD yet. Thanks for the link

[Nauks]

I.T. could still very well be true.

There hasn't been any official statement that buries it, yet.
And until I hear different I will continue to count I.T. as the most valid reason for this situation, and lest we forget, the alternative (current ending) just makes. no. sense.

[JBONE27]

Unfortunately, according to a recent statement by Weekes, the Mass Relays were over loaded, and the massive explosion was a mistake made by the animators. Also, he said, "Joker wouldn't escape without good reason."

I've wanted to believe in Indoctrination Theory, but because of Weekes recent statements, it seems unlikely.

[M.for.Murderousness]

Sebbe1337o wrote...

There's proof that it was canon at first. The model of starchild in the files is named "Harbingerchild" or something like that.

LOL, that image came from the 4chan boards.

Whenever I think of the IT crowd, two questions pop into my head:

1. When the time for the exodus comes, will Guyana let these people back in?

2. If they do, which congressman should we send to negotiate?

 

Modifié par M.for.Murderousness, 08 avril 2012 - 11:12 .

[CPTHughJardon]

i prepare to be shot down as i write this.i never believed the indoc theory but the 2 things that made me think about it were the fact that when shepard shoots anderson he groans in pain at the exact point the bullet enters anderson and the camera later makes a point of making you notice shepard clutching a wound at the same area he shot anderson.and also i know alot of people have pointed to the whole bioware saying that they were going to have the player loose complete control of shepard but ditched it because of bad game mechanics as proof that the IT is false but to me that says the opposite.for me it shows that it was on BW's mind and in their thinking and maybe they thought that as a full loss of control didn't work well they looked at other more subtle options?i don't know but from a story point of view i like the IT we'll just have to wait and see.

[kmcd5722]

Bianco, I seem to find myself agreeing with you a lot on these forums. IT has to be true. It just has to be. IT makes so much more sense than what we got. An extended cut with IT would be the single greatest gaming experience in the history of the industry. BW would have actually indoctrinated their fans. BW would have shown us what it is truly like to be indoctrinated. They would have crafted one of the most controversial moments ever in gaming history, only to have the ace in the hole all along with IT Extended Cut DLC. Why else would they tell us to hang onto our saves? Why else would Casey say "we want everyone to have a chance to play the game" before they release anything? They wanted everyone to experience indoctrination. If this is true, they would be the masters of the interactive story-telling medium upon which future gaming companies could only hope to draw inspiration.

I am trying so hard not to lose faith that BW really didn't intend these endings to be final, but it has been a losing battle. I will not make my final judgment until the summer comes. Until then, I am going to continue to believe IT was planned all along.

If it wasn't, BW completely destroyed a universe so incredibly fleshed out, and now it is completely ruined. I don't buy "we will rebuild!" idea simply because it would take thousands and thousands of years to restore the galaxy to the way it was, in the case the technology of mass relays is ever discovered.

Not to mention BW has essentially slapped in the face many fans. Say what you want to say about the Retakers: people are mad. And while there is plenty of people who support the endings, many do not. I told two of my friends about the whole controversy and they decided not to buy the game. This is the cost BW will pay: lost interest, lost trust, and most importantly to any business: lost profit. I don't think I am a whiny brat, because I would never say I "deserve a better ending." You know who deserves a better ending? BioWare. Why? Because this universe, this fanbase, this story arc is the stuff of legends. And to end it the way it did (which IMHO, they cannot hope to explain away all the plotholes or hope of rebuilding without breaking lore) after such a well crafted emotional ride for ME3, it would be a disgrace to the legacy that is Mass Effect.