279 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

Tirigon wrote...

syllogi wrote...


So, you're saying you'll just make up the effects of the Synthesis ending in your head.  Fair enough.  I'll pretend that only bad geth and AI who have creepy fake genitals were destroyed in my ending, and the Mass Relays were repaired with super glue and bubblegum shortly after the credits rolled.

Everybody gets the ending they want, with imagination!  

No, YOU are making Synthesis up and interprete it as "taking away free will" ... which is never stated that way!

That is not what happens. What happens is a Synthesis between Organics and Synthetics. I still have my free will, and I can still make every choice I could do before.
I only have a new, better perspective because I am no longer bound by an unnecessary distinction between different species.

You don't mind the idea of being merged, but that doesn't mean your free will isn't being taken away.  You have no other choice, and I'd assume there's no way out other than death once it's done.  No matter how positive *you* perceive it to be, it is still forcing a permanent physical change to every being in the galaxy.  

And of course, your perception that this is totally awesome and there are no drawbacks is pure speculation, or imagination.  Which, as I said before, is fine, but nothing in the game gives us any information about how Synthesis will affect the future of the galaxy, other than the happy Normandy crew.  They're equally happy in Destroy and Control, so that really means nothing.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Double-post,.........inane forum.

Modifié par ohupthis, 07 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

A) Everyone lives. No sacrificing all synthetics to save organics, etc.
Synthetics and Organics are merged into a new class of hybrid lifeforms, thereby removing the rift between the two. Major theme of transhumanism.
C) Technically, destroying the Reapers is a form of omnicide, where all the species that had ever been up to that point harvested and distilled into a Reaper-form, are obliterated.

Actually, all things in the galaxy are transformed into the 'hybrid'-life, (god I hate that friggen word "hybrid") so technically the reapers are transmorphed into some other form of detritus, that shouldn't have existed to begin with.

Going green takes on a whole new meaning, when it comes to ME3. Glad I don't live in Edmonton, any longer.

Oh crap, just realized, this is the non spoilery spot. later peeps.

[AlanC9]

syllogi wrote...
You don't mind the idea of being merged, but that doesn't mean your free will isn't being taken away.  You have no other choice, and I'd assume there's no way out other than death once it's done.

Is this maybe just about what is meant by "free will taken away"? Your use of the phrase is a little odd. Usually the phrase is used to mean some sort of mental change that turns someone into a zombie, robot... a being without free will. As opposed to other forms of coercion. For instance, when we imprison someone we say he's had his freedom taken away, but not his free will.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 avril 2012 - 08:46 .

[EHondaMashButton]

AlanC9 wrote...

syllogi wrote...
You don't mind the idea of being merged, but that doesn't mean your free will isn't being taken away.  You have no other choice, and I'd assume there's no way out other than death once it's done.

Is this maybe just about what is meant by "free will taken away"? Your use of the phrase is a little odd. Usually the phrase is used to mean some sort of mental change that turns someone into a zombie, robot... a being without free will. As opposed to other forms of coercion. For instance, when we imprison someone we say he's had his freedom taken away, but not his free will.

You don't consider merging with an artificial intelligence some sort of mental change?

[AlanC9]

EHondaMashButton wrote...
You don't consider merging with an artificial intelligence some sort of mental change?

Sure it is, but that's not the issue.The issue is whether it's a mental change that turns someone into a being without free will. You did read to the end of that sentence, didn't you?

[OriginalTibs]

Han Shot First wrote...

One thing that strikes me as bizarre is how the Green Ending is supposed to be the best possible ending. This option only opens up when you have a high EMS score, which suggests that Bioware intended it to be the ending with the best outcome.

Shepard's mission through three games and five years has been to destroy the Reapers, so why does that change in the last five minutes? Why does the best possible ending (from the writer's point of view) involve the Reapers surviving? And why is the merging of all organic life with synthetics considered the best outcome? In a single stroke of green space magic it annihilates anything that made us human and completely destroys galactic diversity. Were the Asari, Turians, or Krogan your favorite species? All gone now --- everyone is a cyborg.

The word 'Synthesis' means a reconcilation of opposites. Every thesis has an opposite antithesis, and the reconciliation of these is synthesis, where they merge into the new thesis, and to which will arise a new antithesis. This is the process of dialexis (dialectic), from an ancient Greek word that translates to something like "talking it all the way through" (dia & logos).

The synthesis is the more elegant solution to both Shepard's mission and to the Star child's prophecy regarding synthetics destroying organics.

Except for what you have to make Shepard do in order to achieve it, which is wholly unShepardlike, and to some, an outrage. 

[EHondaMashButton]

AlanC9 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...
You don't consider merging with an artificial intelligence some sort of mental change?

Sure it is, but that's not the issue.The issue is whether it's a mental change that turns someone into a being without free will. You did read to the end of that sentence, didn't you?

a) They were never asked permission for the fusion
The fusion modifies the brain itself.  

The change goes "supposedly down to the dna structure" which of course makes no sense. Anyway, ultimately it amounts to inception.  You've invited artificial intelligence into your very being.  How would you know if your will is still your own.  Remember Saren thought he still had free will.

[Tirigon]

EHondaMashButton wrote...


Don't mean to burst your bubble, but ****6 MONTH OLD SPOILERS*****



Synthesis was intended as merging with the reapers.  Whether that changed after the leak, I'l leave that for you to decide.  In my game, the only synthetics left to merge with are EDI and........ the reapers.

Lines 1926-1938 from the script in Nov 
http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug 

"CONVERSATION: Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are revealed. 

ACTION: Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers.

CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard leaps off the edge of the platform becoming one with the Reapers."

Now you might say things weere revised, but the intent at that time was clear, and most of what changed was just cut out altogether.  Javik was dropped as the catalyst, and the Guardian(starchild) became the catalyst.

Reapers vs you in a battle for free will after merging, who do you expect to win?

Yea, forgive me for the blunt choice of words, but I dont give a f*ck for some leak or other.

I judge based on what we see in the game, and there Synthesis does NOT take away free will.

[EHondaMashButton]

OriginalTibs wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

One thing that strikes me as bizarre is how the Green Ending is supposed to be the best possible ending. This option only opens up when you have a high EMS score, which suggests that Bioware intended it to be the ending with the best outcome.

Shepard's mission through three games and five years has been to destroy the Reapers, so why does that change in the last five minutes? Why does the best possible ending (from the writer's point of view) involve the Reapers surviving? And why is the merging of all organic life with synthetics considered the best outcome? In a single stroke of green space magic it annihilates anything that made us human and completely destroys galactic diversity. Were the Asari, Turians, or Krogan your favorite species? All gone now --- everyone is a cyborg.

The word 'Synthesis' means a reconcilation of opposites. Every thesis has an opposite antithesis, and the reconciliation of these is synthesis, where they merge into the new thesis, and to which will arise a new antithesis. This is the process of dialexis (dialectic), from an ancient Greek word that translates to something like "talking it all the way through" (dia & logos).

The synthesis is the more elegant solution to both Shepard's mission and to the Star child's prophecy regarding synthetics destroying organics.

Except for what you have to make Shepard do in order to achieve it, which is wholly unShepardlike, and to some, an outrage. 

This.  It operates on the assumption that the Star child's prophecy is true.  There is no choice to reject his theory.  
You either kill synthetics
Delay synthetics/ take away Reapers/EDI/Legion's free will
or elimitate both and make something new of both

There is no option that says:
- I will not kill all synthetics.  
- I will not mind-wipe all synthetics.  
- I will not mash the two together without consent from either

-I reject your notion that organics and synthetics cannot both retain free will while coexisting in peace.  EDI and the Geth have shown me otherwise, so I'll take my chances.

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 07 avril 2012 - 09:30 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

The change goes "supposedly down to the dna structure" which of course makes no sense. Anyway, ultimately it amounts to inception.  You've invited artificial intelligence into your very being.  How would you know if your will is still your own.  Remember Saren thought he still had free will.

"Inviting into your very being" nothing. The Synthesis choice changes what was there; it isn't installing pre-existing A.I.s into people's brains, it's altering the brain that's already there. This isn't a case of the existing mind having to fight for mental dominance against an outside invader, it's more like a cybernetic augmentation.

The closest analogue is actually Project Lazarus, where in order to bring Shepard back to life, Miranda and Wilson added machine bits. It's just a lot more extensive and in-depth in its alterations.

Argue the point about it being morally reprehensible if you want, but there's nothing to suggest that what happens to life as a result has any negative impact on anything, mental faculties included. It's not some uber-dominant Indoctrination Wave. It just requires that you suspend the (entirely justified) disbelief inspired by the idea of an energy wave that can alter the composition of the brain without harming it in the process.

[Starscream723]

Tirigon wrote...
I judge based on what we see in the game, and there Synthesis does NOT take away free will.

In fairness, if you're judging one what you see in the game, we don't really "see" what it does at all. The game ends almost immediately after you make the change.

We "see" the same stuff blow up as in all the other endings, and a few people step out of a ship. We have no idea as to their subsequent character, whether they have free will or not, whether they're all exactly the same but with the additional ability to shoot lasers out of their backsides, or whether they all feel compelled to run around shouting "This hurts you!" at everyone they meet.

Hopefully the cutscenes DLC will provide more information about the state of the galaxy after each of the ending choices.

Modifié par Starscream723, 07 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

OriginalTibs wrote...

which is wholly unShepardlike, and to some, an outrage. 

I love how people think there's such a thing as "unShepardlike" when the idea of Shepard is that the player is supposed to determine what he would or would not do.

[Robhuzz]

Because it uses the largest amount of space magic.


I would never choose this ending, it's like doing the Reaper's work for them. Shepard's mission was always to destroy them and that's what's going to happen. The starkid is full of crap anyway, Shepard survives somehow with a high enough EMS and EDI does as well, so the kid's statement that all synthetics would be wiped out is flat out untrue.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 07 avril 2012 - 09:33 .

[BatmanPWNS]

If Shepard turned me into a hybrid then I'll ****** on his grave. (If I can find it)

[EHondaMashButton]

Tirigon wrote...

Yea, forgive me for the blunt choice of words, but I dont give a f*ck for some leak or other.

I judge based on what we see in the game, and there Synthesis does NOT take away free will.

No skin off my back, I just want you to sit back and think about what synthesis entails.  You've just merged artificial and organic intelligence.  Remember that synthetics don't have bodies.  They use platforms like tools.  

So you are either a shared platform/hybrid hosting an ai (geth consensus),
a posessed platform/hybrid (deus ex/Saren) meaning either you or the reapers asserts its will
or your prior form is wiped from existance and entirely new creation emerges(space magic).  

[MassStorm]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If Shepard turned me into a hybrid then I'll ****** on his grave. (If I can find it)

if you will be an hybrid probably you won't ******...but you can still lose oil on his grave

Seriously though red choice seems to me the only one that Shepard would coherently pick. The entire trilogy was about destroying the reapers so if Shepard get the chance he/she would certainly pick that one.

Modifié par MassStorm, 07 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[EHondaMashButton]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

The change goes "supposedly down to the dna structure" which of course makes no sense. Anyway, ultimately it amounts to inception.  You've invited artificial intelligence into your very being.  How would you know if your will is still your own.  Remember Saren thought he still had free will.

"Inviting into your very being" nothing. The Synthesis choice changes what was there; it isn't installing pre-existing A.I.s into people's brains, it's altering the brain that's already there. This isn't a case of the existing mind having to fight for mental dominance against an outside invader, it's more like a cybernetic augmentation.

The closest analogue is actually Project Lazarus, where in order to bring Shepard back to life, Miranda and Wilson added machine bits. It's just a lot more extensive and in-depth in its alterations.

Argue the point about it being morally reprehensible if you want, but there's nothing to suggest that what happens to life as a result has any negative impact on anything, mental faculties included. It's not some uber-dominant Indoctrination Wave. It just requires that you suspend the (entirely justified) disbelief inspired by the idea of an energy wave that can alter the composition of the brain without harming it in the process.

You're confusing steel with software.  Sythetics are software.  You're not merging with Legion's N7 chestpiece, you're merging with Legion.  What saren got was cybernetic augmentations.  What you're doing is merging organic and synthetic life.

[78stonewobble]

If there was any kind of deeper explanation of what synthesis meant for eg. intelligent organic life, intelligent artificial life, lower organic animals, plants and what not I missed it.

Presumably the overlay of digital magic just means that everything will now come with bluetooth.

And everything's better with bluetooth.

AFAIK: It was for ALL life? Artificial oak with bluetooth?

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 07 avril 2012 - 09:46 .

[Tirigon]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

So you are either a shared platform/hybrid hosting an ai (geth consensus),
a posessed platform/hybrid (deus ex/Saren) meaning either you or the reapers asserts its will
or your prior form is wiped from existance and entirely new creation emerges(space magic).  

For me it seems very obvious it is the latter

[TheGreenAlloy]

staindgrey wrote...

No ****ing clue.

If I play the game again, I'll always pick "destroy". It's the only one that makes sense for Shepard.

[The_Shootist]

streetmark wrote...

ARTISTIC AND EDGY!

Give me pop culture and dull then. Because the endings are crap.

Even Thomas Covenant would never fall to the dispair that are the ME3 endings.

[thehomeworld]

You would think that opening the green up at the highest levels would equal its the best choice but I don't see how overriding everyone's will and forcing conformity on everyone is a good choice look how well that's working in North Korea ie it sucks. I had this same problem with DE: HR they wanted to push the two twist options more so then the truth.

The truth was the billionaires version yet the world becomes crap out of it and I assume all cyborg eventually die because not only can they not get the neuro drug they need they are banned from keeping their cybernetics upkept they only real choice is to die and not spin or tell the truth which sucks.

But in 3 its worse all roads lead to screw over the galaxy if you don't nova the gates (which I believe you just blow them up not the samething as nova) you still leave everyone who didn't get someplace before you did that stranded wherever they are that alone isn't cool.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 07 avril 2012 - 10:28 .

[EHondaMashButton]

Tirigon wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

So you are either a shared platform/hybrid hosting an ai (geth consensus),
a posessed platform/hybrid (deus ex/Saren) meaning either you or the reapers asserts its will
or your prior form is wiped from existance and entirely new creation emerges(space magic).  

For me it seems very obvious it is the latter

I'm so glad you bit on that one.

Lets carry this to its logical conclusion.  You've modified everyone to the point where they are entirely new lifeform. But lets assume somehow you retain your individuality, hopes, dreams, etc.  

If you retain the mind of your prior you, then so do the humans, reapers, quarians, geth, EDI, etc.  
 
If organic minds are unaltered, then we are still inherently prone to love, hate, jealousy, power, anger, chaos, while the former synthetics are still prone to logic and order.  

And people like Xen and TiM who desire power, will countinue experimenting with creating a.i. they can control, which presumably has the capability of rebelling against its master.  

 Which negates the whole point of this choice.  You can't have it both ways.

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 07 avril 2012 - 10:42 .

[78stonewobble]

Tirigon wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

So you are either a shared platform/hybrid hosting an ai (geth consensus),
a posessed platform/hybrid (deus ex/Saren) meaning either you or the reapers asserts its will
or your prior form is wiped from existance and entirely new creation emerges(space magic).  

For me it seems very obvious it is the latter

Well not according to the end video. They still step off the normandy pretty much as themselves and onto pretty much the same jungle planet.

I guess the organic / artificial life is then free to create artificial / artificial life...

EDIT: No wait. They might have smiled a bit more.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 07 avril 2012 - 10:47 .