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Retake ME3 : Let's cut BioWare some slack and work together on Extended Cut


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#1
KaeserZen

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Folks of the Retake movement, let us be honest for a moment.

(Suggested background music : http://grooveshark.c... for the krogan )

Even if yesterday's announcement was not the ideal outcome many of us expected, everyone has got to admit that there was a lot of over-reaction following it. I'll grant that communication is difficult between BioWare and its consumers, which leads to massive and destructive misunderstandings.

When people heard the endings were not going to be changed, many if not most immediately understood that as : the endings will remain the same as they are now.

This is a dangerous assumption.

By thinking this, you imply that every BioWare effort is going to yield to different flavours of the same. You are assuming BioWare will not change the status quo at the end of the cutscenes. You assume this will imply : No more space travel, entire species starving to death, Normandy lost forever.
You assume they will only explain this longer. And you are right to think that this will be even more depressing.

However, by doing so, you actively don't consider the entire realm of possibilities that they can play with. There is exactly the same chance that they provide an acceptable closure on many themes present on the endings : Galactic Civilisation reborn in a new way, free of all Reaper directions, free of fatalism / Normandy crew having survived and rescued by Shepard is he's alive, other main characters / Fate of our friends and allies within this new galactic context.

You assume the clarification bit to be a slap in the face by the developpers. Clarification and context elements are likely to occur during the Citadel bit. If they add cut VO, add new one, they can also change or alter existing elements, and put them more in the context of the entire series. For example, if the Reaper's goal is actually to prevent organic extinction on a galactic scale from synthetics, they could tie it to why the Reapers let us grow until we can bring them something (as Sovereign and Harbinger said) : With every new cycle, the new organics do not start technology from naught based on solely what the Reapers provide them : they also use technology from the previous organic that was developped based on technology from previous cycles, etc, etc.
As such, we can easily deduce that the synthetics likely to be built are going to be stronger and more efficient each cycle, which is why the Reapers need these new species to increase their own strength.

Some things are likely to stay, but they can stay in a new version, tying more to the rest of the series.

We all know that BioWare is capable of miraculous writing. They have demonstrated it enough with the entire ME series, save from the endings. Now, they are offering us to trust them that they will uplift the ending's writing to the level of the rest of the game. And you turn them down ?

You turn them down because you assume the Retake has lost. On the contrary, I beleive the Retake as won.

We have brought to their attention the elements that are dissatisfying. This entire sub-forum is a rich database of what needs to be adressed. They are now enlightened about what they need to work on. And I say, let them do it. They are better writers than us, and with all this feedback, they must now perceive what has gone wrong.

More importantly, since the release date is summer, it gives them between 3 and 6 months to work on that. It means, that they will work on that for between 12,5% and 25% of the time it took to develop ME3. Just for the new endings ! Knowing BioWare, I am sure that there will be some quality, with such long development time.

And, since it will take them 3 to 6 months to churn this extended ending, it also probably means that its content are not entirely set in stone. It is THE chance to really put forward what you want to see. It is OUR chance to dialog, albeit indirectly through the forums, with the developpers. It is OUR chance to take part in the story of Mass Effect.

We have held the line, we have gotten results. It is something we should be proud of. Few have succeeded what we accomplished.
I, like many others, have been very vocal on these forums, but in my case it was mostly light hearted sarcasm, to tease and bring attention to key points I thought were needed to be adressed.

Now, that we have gotten the attention of those infinitely our greater, is not the time to shut down the dialog and turn away what we have been offered. Keep talking CONSTRUCTIVELY. Bring up your points. Many have excellent reasons with logic that can't be turned down. These quality posts have a chance to influence the development direction they are taking with Extended Cut.

Doomsay or ragequit all you want, in the end this will bring nothing to Retake.

Keep holding the line to influence the direction the development has made, by highligting key disappointing points, by letting know which aspects of the current endings you want altered and clarified, because it is probably our only chance to do so.
More importantly, remain constructive and civil. Always.

And if their efforts still do not live up to your expectations, once it has been released, then it's only natural to be entitled take your money elsewhere. BioWare knows that, and this is why they are working on the endings.

EDIT : And to illustrate my thread, about why we are right to be hopeful, here's a picture.

Image IPB

(Kudos to this OP for the find : http://social.biowar.../index/11037819 )
____

Hold the line, with wit, will and smile.

Modifié par KaeserZen, 06 avril 2012 - 04:44 .


#2
KaeserZen

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Faster Than Light forum goes at Faster Than Light speed !

#3
Deflagratio

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The ending will remain kind of stupid, unless more indoc. evidence pops up, enough to conclusively rule it as the truth to all but the most delusional.

But stupid endings are hardly uncommon, even Bioshock, one of the greatest games of any generation has a terrible ending. They all can't be Red Dead Redemption. What's important is that the "Extended Cut" properly wraps up all the loose ends of franchise that have been left hanging. At least then, the Ending will have fulfilled it's obligation as an ending.

#4
KaeserZen

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Deflagratio wrote...

The ending will remain kind of stupid, unless more indoc. evidence pops up, enough to conclusively rule it as the truth to all but the most delusional.

But stupid endings are hardly uncommon, even Bioshock, one of the greatest games of any generation has a terrible ending. They all can't be Red Dead Redemption. What's important is that the "Extended Cut" properly wraps up all the loose ends of franchise that have been left hanging. At least then, the Ending will have fulfilled it's obligation as an ending.


I agree with you, even though I feel it is less likely that they go on to justify more Indoctrination evidence.

Based on the nice responses to the unofficial epilogues thread/webpage, I beleive people will be satisfied with the Extended Cut.

A story evolves in 5 steps : Original context - Perturbating element - Adventures - Unfolding - Final context

I beleive people are disappointed by the Unfolding, which is the ending, but mainly the lack of Final context. The only thing close to final context we have is the Normandy stranded on a planet.

Fleshing out the Unfolding slightly more, and putting in a Final context is likely what is going to happen, and is potentially a great fix in my humble opinion.

#5
The_Crazy_Hand

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 Expansion without happy option = bad.  They refuse to add any additional endings.

#6
Jackal7713

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Sorry OP. This was the last straw. Bioware will only understand money. So many people, including myself, will take that away from them. No new games , No DLC, etc.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 06 avril 2012 - 06:50 .


#7
crimsontotem

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we just have to wait for PAX... it's not too late to go crazy after that.

remember Hackett's voice actor? he said friday Bioware is going to say something big.

let's just wait people

#8
Dreogan

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Please keep in mind this entire ordeal was due, in part, to broken promises and undelivered product. Bioware could promise an plot overhaul of the entire game and I wouldn't be naive enough to fall for their words again.

They have done nothing until they deliver. If they fail the execution on this, fail to even match the spirit of their promises in today's press release, then there is absolutely no reason we should trust them in the future.

I will not tell Bioware exactly what needs to be done to fix their ending. They know -- we've posted at great length. Whether or not they understand what is wrong with their ending is just another part of their final "score" of Mass Effect. They've already lost points for allowing such an inferior (and incomplete) release, but they may be able to salvage some of those points by delivering what they promised (in the spirit of their words, if not their exact words) and execute in such a way that we will know they understood what was wrong with their vanity storytelling.

Modifié par Dreogan, 06 avril 2012 - 07:13 .


#9
KaeserZen

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

 Expansion without happy option = bad.  They refuse to add any additional endings.


It doesn't mean the Extended Cut won't include happy conclusions to the current endings ;)

They said they will bring closure to the fans. We don't know what form this will take yet, I suggest we be patient about it.

Since many fans will want a happy ending, I am sure they will include it in some form in the current endings. As I mentionned, they are the starting point of a new galactic organization, not the end of all ;)

#10
TheRisenStar

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At what point did you believe they want or care about this being a collaboration?

That they are citing "artistic vision" should tell you all you need to know - this isn't a collaboration. They will submit their "expanded" version and we will get a chance to decide. My hopes are not high.

#11
Guest_BringBackNihlus_*

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You're fighting a losing battle, OP. You can't reason with the unreasonable.

#12
KaeserZen

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TheRisenStar wrote...

At what point did you believe they want or care about this being a collaboration?

That they are citing "artistic vision" should tell you all you need to know - this isn't a collaboration. They will submit their "expanded" version and we will get a chance to decide. My hopes are not high.


If they didn't want collaboration, they wouldn't have made yesterday's announcement, and told everyone to suck it up.

Basically.

#13
Greed1914

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I feel like all of the feedback that they have received up to this point would be more than enough to figure out what to do.

And there is only so much trust in a person. Right now, I'm skeptical. I'm not totally writing it off, but I'm very skeptical, and all their talk of artistic integrity doesn't feel like a victory to me.

#14
Sc2mashimaro

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Op is full of win. Listen to this, guys! Stop playing the cynical victim and start seeing the opportunity here. Think of "clarifying and giving closure" like remodeling a house. It is still a remodel even if one wall is all you keep. Have a little faith, because exactly zero people would care if Bioware had written garbage for the rest of three games. They are good writers who messed up one ten minute scene (that happened to be the capstone of the work). Based on past performance, it would be stupid to bet against them. Take a deep breath and give the best feedback you can to help them get it right. I am excited to see what they will do.

Also, for the "i think they rushed it" crowd, this is a good chance for them to "un-rush" the ending. Let them know what parts are bugging you and give them a chance to make it right.

If people on BSN had any sense they would be celebrating right now. So, with that, I am out for the night.

#15
Hibernating

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Jackal7713 wrote...

Sorry OP. This was the last straw. Bioware will only understand money. So many people, including myself, will take that away from them. No new games , No DLC, etc.


Thats why the are doing this DLC for free! for the money! *facepalm*

#16
KaeserZen

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BringBackNihlus wrote...

You're fighting a losing battle, OP. You can't reason with the unreasonable.


Who do you design as unreasonable ? BioWare or the most hot headed people on the community ?

If it is the latter, I don't mind about them. Many angry people are looking for a pretext to ragequit.

I am trying to appeal to the most reasonable members of our armada.

#17
TheRisenStar

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KaeserZen wrote...

TheRisenStar wrote...

At what point did you believe they want or care about this being a collaboration?

That they are citing "artistic vision" should tell you all you need to know - this isn't a collaboration. They will submit their "expanded" version and we will get a chance to decide. My hopes are not high.


If they didn't want collaboration, they wouldn't have made yesterday's announcement, and told everyone to suck it up.

Basically.

Uh, they did tell you to suck it up.  They're not looking to change the ending at all or give additional endings.

They were about as clear as corporate speak allows - They're doing their thing, their way, and we can like it or leave.

#18
Zeratul12

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We are trying to reach a consensus

#19
KingKhan03

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What makes me a little annoyed is the fact that they said they collected feedback but most of the feedback i've seen is for new endings not clarification.

#20
garf

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hey it's free. I'll download it since, as far as I'm concerned, it's part of what I bought however many months ago when I payed full price on my preorder N7 edition.

but no. I'm done talking. and switched to voting. See my sig.

#21
KaeserZen

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Greed1914 wrote...

I feel like all of the feedback that they have received up to this point would be more than enough to figure out what to do.

And there is only so much trust in a person. Right now, I'm skeptical. I'm not totally writing it off, but I'm very skeptical, and all their talk of artistic integrity doesn't feel like a victory to me.


You are right to be skeptical, I am too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to accept everything they throw at us. I am entitled to disliking it, as we all are. If it doesn't satisfy me, I will not purchase anything more from the Mass Effect franchise.

However, being skeptical means being open-eared, which I'm glad you are. Many people here are not, and are stuck with partial elements to based their reasoning on.

#22
Guest_BringBackNihlus_*

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KaeserZen wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

You're fighting a losing battle, OP. You can't reason with the unreasonable.


Who do you design as unreasonable ? BioWare or the most hot headed people on the community ?

If it is the latter, I don't mind about them. Many angry people are looking for a pretext to ragequit.

I am trying to appeal to the most reasonable members of our armada.


Them. Like I've said countless times, people want to kill this DLC before we even know anything about it.

#23
Keldon Northwind

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They aren't fixing the ending. They're providing "clarification" which is pointless because THE ENDING DOES NOT WORK! Anytime you need to provide clarification for an ending to a saga, you are doing something terribly wrong. They're fully comitted to holding on to the "artistic vision" defense - which is no defense at all.

BioWare are fully intent on alienating their fanbase. "Yes, we are listening." No, you really aren't.

I've written off BioWare as a good game developer. THere are other companeis who will receive my money

#24
KaeserZen

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TheRisenStar wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

TheRisenStar wrote...

At what point did you believe they want or care about this being a collaboration?

That they are citing "artistic vision" should tell you all you need to know - this isn't a collaboration. They will submit their "expanded" version and we will get a chance to decide. My hopes are not high.


If they didn't want collaboration, they wouldn't have made yesterday's announcement, and told everyone to suck it up.

Basically.

Uh, they did tell you to suck it up.  They're not looking to change the ending at all or give additional endings.

They were about as clear as corporate speak allows - They're doing their thing, their way, and we can like it or leave.


You are playing on words there.

To me, adding closure is changing the endings, because we haven't got it.

Adding a new room to a house IS changing the house.

#25
KaeserZen

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Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Op is full of win. Listen to this, guys! .


Oh, stop it you !

You are the one full of win, sir.