292 réponses à ce sujet

[Heather Cline]

No the extended cut does not make our choices matter. It does not give the player an ending that is satisfying. In fact the whole AI child, red/blue/green thing is a blatant rip off of Deus Ex Machina/HR. Just a fresh coat of paint to make it seem like it's different when it is not.

What was told to us is that the extended cut will explain what the AI child was talking about, will give extra cutscenes and to fill in the plot holes of the AI child crap.

It does NOT provide extra endings to give us the happy ending many of us want. It does NOT provide other endings to go in between the crappy ending we got to grey middle area to the happy endings that was promised.

What it will provide is the least amount of effort possible to try and only mollify a small portion of the retake movement so that they can split our efforts and cause in fighting. That is BioWare's goal. If we allow that to happen then they will have won.

What we want and need is utter capitulation. If they want this to go away it will take no less than providing a better set of endings to the game. Stop hiding behind your damned artistic integrity and artistic vision. It's a load of crap and you know it BioWare.

[KaeserZen]

Heather Cline wrote...

No the extended cut does not make our choices matter. It does not give the player an ending that is satisfying. In fact the whole AI child, red/blue/green thing is a blatant rip off of Deus Ex Machina/HR. Just a fresh coat of paint to make it seem like it's different when it is not.

And how do you know that ?

How do you know they are NOT going to show the galactic civilization being rebuilt, with or without new mass relays ?

How do you know they are NOT going to show the Normandy Crew being rescued down the road ?

How do you know they are NOT going to show the future of the Krogans, Quarians, Geth and other species ?

As I see it, RGB isn't the ending. It's the final choice you make that will be taken into accounts in the epilogues.

Check Jessica Merizan's twitter post, and see how we can get the happy ending, even based on these premises.

I think they wanted to showcase hope and freedom in the ending. But they failed, and everyone felt doom and loss.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

KaeserZen wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

No the extended cut does not make our choices matter. It does not give the player an ending that is satisfying. In fact the whole AI child, red/blue/green thing is a blatant rip off of Deus Ex Machina/HR. Just a fresh coat of paint to make it seem like it's different when it is not.

And how do you know that ?

How do you know they are NOT going to show the galactic civilization being rebuilt, with or without new mass relays ?

How do you know they are NOT going to show the Normandy Crew being rescued down the road ?

How do you know they are NOT going to show the future of the Krogans, Quarians, Geth and other species ?

As I see it, RGB isn't the ending. It's the final choice you make that will be taken into accounts in the epilogues.

Check Jessica Merizan's twitter post, and see how we can get the happy ending, even based on these premises.

I think they wanted to showcase hope and freedom in the ending. But they failed, and everyone felt doom and loss.

You know what?  We don't, but realistically, little, if any of that will be shown.  Not impossible we'll see all of it, but I'm not deluding myself either.

[Wabajakka]

Our work is done.

We've pleaded and suggested heavily. They answered with a whimper. We await the final result.

[Heather Cline]

I've seen her twitter post and that post is just as vague as what you are posting here. They stated that there will be NO new endings. That the epilogue crap is to only expound upon the current crap endings. They threw in a Deus Ex Machina/HR ending just because they couldn't come up with an actually decent ending. This is HORRIBLE writing and anyone with an ounce of sense or had read any decently written novel will actually see that.

They assassinated Shepard's character in the final 15 minutes of the game. Shepard didn't even tell the AI Child to screw off! Fact was Shepard just completely acted out of character for renegade and paragon both. They failed to write a real ending and this extended cut is just more crap piled on a already crappy ending.

They did not deliver on multiple endings that took our choices into it. They did not provide a happy ending where Shepard survives and lives out the rest of her/his life with LI and possibly crew. They did NOT provide endings for the grey area either. They only provided 3 crappy endings with every single choice destroying the relays.

In fact with all relays destroyed there is no possible way to find Joker and the Normandy. Then there is the problem with the Normandy in a hyperspace jump in the first place.

So tell me pray tell how are they going to find Joker, the Normandy without mass relays? It's impossible as regular hyperspace travel without mass relays takes months if not years and causes hull buckling problems along with too much stress on the hyperspace jump systems which causes even more problems and eventual destruction or forced landing of a ship on a planet. This was stated in the 3rd game btw when you find remnants of a ship on a planet during scanning.

So frankly the expanded ending isn't going to be able to undo all this crap and the Deus Ex Machina that they threw in because they were too damned dumb to write proper multiple varying different endings that were wildly different from one another that took in our choices.

So no I don't believe they can show a happy ending, show that all the ships stranded in the Sol system got home safely. In fact with how Arrival stated that relays being destroyed would destroy the system they are in, those ships are effectively destroyed, the earth and any planets in that system are gone and so are other planets, ships and life in other systems with mass relays.

There is no way to explain all that without massive rewrite.

[KaeserZen]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

You know what?  We don't, but realistically, little, if any of that will be shown.  Not impossible we'll see all of it, but I'm not deluding myself either.

You are right, we don't know.

And, how is it more realistic that we get to see little of that ? We don't know that either.

That's the point of my OP. People are basing their rage off what they assume Extended Cut will contain. And most of these assumptions involve that it will be more of the same, and that everything is doomed. While we don't know for certain.

There are many interpretations possible for the endings, and what could happen afterwards. It is not necessarily a no-win scenario, as most doomsayers are implying

[Heather Cline]

From what we've been told it's exactly just that. It still is a no win scenario. Shepard dies in all but ONE ending and that is if you use MP to get said ending. Which is a load of bull. So yeah without a massive re-write removing the Deus Ex Machina ending and giving us the actual multiple endings that were promised, this is just another load of crap put out by a company that just decided to sell out and not give a damned.

[KaeserZen]

Heather Cline wrote...

So frankly the expanded ending isn't going to be able to undo all this crap and the Deus Ex Machina that they threw in because they were too damned dumb to write proper multiple varying different endings that were wildly different from one another that took in our choices.

So no I don't believe they can show a happy ending, show that all the ships stranded in the Sol system got home safely. In fact with how Arrival stated that relays being destroyed would destroy the system they are in, those ships are effectively destroyed, the earth and any planets in that system are gone and so are other planets, ships and life in other systems with mass relays.

There is no way to explain all that without massive rewrite.

The Deus Ex Machina is likely to stay, yes. That is pretty much a given. And it is a very bad move, I'm disappointed by this story elemen very much.

How can you know for sure it won't be able to undo all this "crap" ? It won't retcon out the star child, no. But we have FTL.

The point of the endings was to give a fresh start to the galactic civilization, free of Reaper-induced and controlled fate. Even the crash land scene shows happy people and hope, instead of "Oh sh*t, we're doomed".

Once again, you are assuming the relay explosions did wipe out the systems, based on a violent collision with an asteroid on Arrival. This is not what happened.

Heck, if the systems were destroyed, think about it, when we see that scene with the space magic spreading to the Galaxy, at everyplace it is, we would see huge chunks of black void as the starts get wiped out. It doesn't seem to be the case, implying the systems are intact.

My point is : stop with negative-nancy assumptions. Keep an open mind, and do not state your assumptions as irrefutable facts, because there are so many alternatives possible there.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

KaeserZen wrote...

You are right, we don't know.

And, how is it more realistic that we get to see little of that ? We don't know that either.

That's the point of my OP. People are basing their rage off what they assume Extended Cut will contain. And most of these assumptions involve that it will be more of the same, and that everything is doomed. While we don't know for certain.

There are many interpretations possible for the endings, and what could happen afterwards. It is not necessarily a no-win scenario, as most doomsayers are implying

Well the problem is, what you're suggesting is pretty much a best case scenario.  I don't really see things going that way.  I respect your resolve in assuming good faith, but after all the crap we've been through, I just dont see it.

Some of that stuff?  Likely, all of it?  I just don't see it happening.

[KaeserZen]

Heather Cline wrote...

From what we've been told it's exactly just that. It still is a no win scenario. Shepard dies in all but ONE ending and that is if you use MP to get said ending. Which is a load of bull. So yeah without a massive re-write removing the Deus Ex Machina ending and giving us the actual multiple endings that were promised, this is just another load of crap put out by a company that just decided to sell out and not give a damned.

Check Trishot's analogy on the pie in page 9.

The choice between A, B and C will not be the endings anymore based on Extended Cut. They will be the final ingredient to give you the endings AND the epilogues, based on your choices before.
This is what they promise, and they are perfectly aware of what will happen if they mess that up.

"Ending" refers to a final situation, an epilogue. Not a final choice. That is unfolding/finale.
They will be turning the current "endings" (cutscenes) to a more fleshed out epilogue, where there is a chance every decision you made, INCLUDING the final one, to matter in these epilogues.

I don't know what to tell you more.

[Heather Cline]

I will not stop so don't tell me what to do. I don't tell you to stop posting about being positive now do I? No.

As for the Arrival DLC destruction, that is exactly what happens when a relay is destroyed. That was made perfectly clear in that DLC doesn't matter how it was destroyed it is what happened.

FTL as I stated above is useless because it takes months if not years to travel from one system to another and causes major problems with hull buckling and stress on the FTL drives to work that long. Then there is fuel issues, without enough fuel a ship can get stuck inbetween star clusters and drift for ages.

Frankly you are ignoring established fact and lore set up in the ME universe in favor of a positive attitude and I can prove you are wrong.

Space magic be damned. I don't believe in space magic. ME was set in facts and science. Sure some explanations were weak but the fact was they had explanations and facts and science to support them.

As for huge chunks of black void. If you looked at the galaxy map in ME2 after the Arrival DLC there was no black void for the system you wiped out when you took out the Mass Relay so no there wouldn't be a black void. It would just be a destroyed system with other systems within that star cluster still viable but no way to get to them without a viable FTL system that would need an entire re-working since the Mass Relays were NECESSARY.

Destroying the reapers was the fresh start. Destroying the Relays was NOT needed but it was done anyways. BioWare effectively killed their own universe by destroying them.

[mpgeist]

I respect what you're doing OP, but many feel that Bioware lied or at least mislead people about how the game will end. It's simply a matter of trust.

[Prism]

Agree with OP. We got pretty much the maximum we could've hoped for. Changed ending was never going to happen. This is a nice compromise, and as such, instead of whining, myself, I'll try to make the best out of it.

[Heather Cline]

This is not a compromise. A compromise is keeping the original endings for those who are pro-enders. Adding closure for those who want closure and then adding in additional endings and choices for those of us who listened to the interviews and ad campaign but did not get what we were promised. Instead we got character assassination of Shepard, 3 choices that were all exactly the same except choose your color and how Shepard dies. Frankly no, we did not get what was promised.

Again I state this is the minimal amount of work to try and split the movement. What they should have done was apologized and either removed the AI child completely and given us the endings promised or added new options and new endings as well as closure for those who wanted closure/explanations.

Since we did not get that, this is NOT a compromise. A compromise is what I stated here just now.

[Prism]

I believe you have your own views on the definition of compromise. Between doing nothing about it and completely rehauling it (which would've never happened)? It is a freaking compromise.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a pro-ender by any means, but realistically I never expected anything more than maybe a ~45min-1h expansion on the current endings.
And as I said, you will gain squat now by further complaining about it. The only good thing that can come out of it, the BEST thing that can come out of it will only come IF they work with the fans, but more importantly, if the fans work with them.

[wicked_being]

Prismvg wrote...
Don't get me wrong, I am not a pro-ender by any means, but realistically I never expected anything more than maybe a ~45min-1h expansion on the current endings.

I think we'll be lucky if it's even 10-15 minutes long tbh.

I admit I was one of the many furious fans vehemently holding the line but I realized hating isn't really doing us (me) any good. I'm taking a step back but that doesn't mean I've given up. I'm just going to wait and keep hoping everything will be okay. If not, well it was a good run Bioware *waves goodbye*

A friend just pointed out this is Bioware's chance to 're-write the Geth heretics.' Restore faith, boost fan base. I really hope they don't opt for the Destroy option.

[Aznable Char]

I said it in the other thread , but I'll reiterate it here as well on what I believe should be obvious:

KEEP HOLDING THE LINE . We have nothing to lose by continuing to notify BioWare that we want a better ending and what that looks like in a constructive manner as well as widening attention to the fact that endings still suck .

If the "Clarification DLC" is good , then we win .
If we convince them to make a better ending , we win .
If the clarification sucks and they don't listen to us , then THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF WE STOPPED HOLDING THE LINE ANYWAY .

In other words : we lose nothing by continuing to tell BioWare "This is your last chance to make us a good ending or we're not spending another dime on your company and we're telling our friends not to either"

[Senario]

*cough* Well as much as I would think Bioware would be willing to WORK WITH FANS. To create their closure DLC, it is getting hard to believe they will actually do it...

And maybe a few parts of what they said leaves a bit of hope. "Not just a simple epilogue" to paraphrase from what I've heard. So maybe a bit of gameplay? It is still difficult to believe they can work around the starchild and his choices that make little sense. It would take a LOT OF GOOD CLARIFICATION to overlook this major flaw in both writing and theme.

The theme IS NOT SYNTHETICS VS ORGANICS. You might have been able to get away with that from the events of the first game, but this is changed because of the character development of Legion/the Geth as opposed to the Reapers. Theme turns into "Uniting of diverse peoples to defeat a clearly evil menace".

And Introducing a new character is already a flawed plot point if done during what is supposed to be "resolution" parts of a story. Its worse if it changes the "main villain" No, "We are Harbinger" or "Foolish mortal, you've changed nothing! We will find another way!" ect ect. Instead we get, "I created the reapers, they are my solution." and "The created will always rebel against their creators"....So why haven't the reapers rebelled against the catalyst?

[Yalision]

I would like them to change the Starchild to something else entirely. Something more enigmatic perhaps? The Starchild in itself is a core problem, and even if you don't change the ending it would be good to have him resolved as a central issue.

[Marty McMort]

Firstly, I've been visiting these forums a lot recently, and I'd just like to say that OP seems to be the most reasonable and intelligent voice on them.

And secondly, I have to say that I actually have a lot of faith in Bioware on this one. My issues with the ending weren't with what they contained so much as what they didn't contain, and I feel the same is true for most ME fans. I didn't care that the Normandy was scrambling to get through a mass relay and got marooned on the Garden of Eden planet, I cared that there was no reason for why they were going through in the first place. I didn't mind that there were three choices for the ending (let's face it, it's one more than we got in ME2), I minded that there were no explanations as to how those different choices impacted the future of the galaxy differently.

In short, I didn't really find anything wrong with the ending that couldn't be explained away by this closure DLC, and if anyone can, please share it with me, as I'm curious.The current endings are bad, but not irreparably so; this Extended Cut DLC could definitely make them work. I mean, these are the people who wrote the Tuchanka scene. I actually had to turn off my xbox and have a moment of respect for Mordin after that one.

That being said, my hopes aren't high on this last one, but if Bioware could give me a scene with a blue baby, I would probably fart out a rainbow.

Modifié par Marty McMort, 07 avril 2012 - 08:50 .

[TheCinC]

Agree fully with the op. The Exteneded Cut wasn't planned, so it is a victory for us and a step in the right direction, I just feel it would need a bit more and hope we can convince EA/Bioware that this is in their best interests too. I have some ideas of my own and would welcome anything anyone might want to contribute. Please see here:

Constructive criticism: how to turn the Extended Cut into a decent ending?

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Prismvg wrote...

Agree with OP. We got pretty much the maximum we could've hoped for. Changed ending was never going to happen. This is a nice compromise, and as such, instead of whining, myself, I'll try to make the best out of it.

But see, it shouldn't be about comprimise, it should be about giving customers what they want.

You can't please everybody, sure.  But would doing things that please most people be too unreasonable?  I'm pretty sure if they'd not blow up the mass relays, add a 4th, happy option, and not strand the normandy that most would be happy.

Since they're not going to do that, I say we, as the ones who pay their checks should take a stand.

[KaeserZen]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Prismvg wrote...

Agree with OP. We got pretty much the maximum we could've hoped for. Changed ending was never going to happen. This is a nice compromise, and as such, instead of whining, myself, I'll try to make the best out of it.

But see, it shouldn't be about comprimise, it should be about giving customers what they want.

You can't please everybody, sure.  But would doing things that please most people be too unreasonable?  I'm pretty sure if they'd not blow up the mass relays, add a 4th, happy option, and not strand the normandy that most would be happy.

Since they're not going to do that, I say we, as the ones who pay their checks should take a stand.

Once again, how do you know they can not make a happy ending out of it ? People assume that without the Relays, galactic civilization is doomed.

You can look at the glass half empty or half filled, for this DLC. I am very sure they understand that publishing it to rub the fans in the wrong way will be a stupid move.
I am pretty sure that they made this Normandy scene not to show it was stranded, but to show that they survived.
They put a lot of pressure with that scene where Joker is trying to escape, and a quick cut to black when the ship gets hit is there to build suspense.

However, they manage to make it out. Hope is not lost. Granted, this should have been put more clearly.

@Heather, with all due respect, I did not mean to offend you. I beleive you are very bitter about the endings and the announcements, and that made you see my post as condescending or patronizing. It was not the case.
I do apologize, however, if you felt that way. The goal of this thread is to provide a place to discuss, even though opinions may greatly differ, not to drive the participants to hate one another.

For the relays being destroyed, once again, I don't beleive it explodes like in Arrival.
First reason : Shepard can be alive, so the Sol system isn't destroyed.
Second reason : we see the rings accelerating their spin speed. I don't recall every seeing that before. This could mean that they are using up their eezo core. The devastating energy in Arrival is based on a full eezo core just exploding, because it has been unstabilized again, and the energy being wildly released.

If the energy is transformed from a destructive to a Reaper-killing, or Reaper-controling, or DNA-fusing kind, then I don't see why the Relays exploding would destroy the systems.

Let's use current EM waves as an example. From a frequency of 3.10^19 Hertz and above, EM waves are Gamma rays, which are very energetic and destructive. However, the exact same kind of waves, with a frequency of between 3.10^14 and ~3.10^14,8 holds much, much less energy and actually corresponds to the visible specter of light.
As such, since I beleive the destructive power of a Relay is not matter based, but energy based, changing the magnitude of energy released, by changing the frequency of it, is very plausible.

[Reion 13]

Im going to reserve my judgement until the thing comes out. If its good, awesome. If not then then the flames are back in their previus glory.

Althoug "their previus glory" was never particulary glorius.

[AIR MOORE]

This is exactly what EA and BioWare wanted.... it's amazing how easily people can be manipulated.


Here is the bottom line for me: These writers failed to come up with an ending that is in any sense acceptable... in all honesty it is just atrocious. They did this with a perfectly clean slate where they could have gone anywhere.

The odds of these exact same writers coming back and salvaging the end here when they messed up so spectacularly on the first one is far fetched.

Think of it this way... they couldn't create a good ending the first go round with everything open to their disposal. What are the odds these exact same people can come back, and with the anchor of having to mesh it into the story they have said they will not change... salvage the said ending.


There are no less than 25issues (not "i liked this or I didn't") with this ending that just do not fit with the rest of the establishment of the series, they are either plotholes, logical polarities (fallacy in some cases) and or just anamolies that make the ending a problem (indeed there are far more issues than that).


So to make this satisfactory to me, they have to clearly and explicitly explain the vast majority of things that occured, and exactly why/how they did.


What I think will happen: BioWare will simply go: "This happened after the fact, including X/Y/Z for your choices".

Take for example just the relay system: Say they come back and go... the relay system was rebuilt. I think we should learn: Where the plans for it come from, who built it back up, how did they find enough resources? Since mass relays worked shooting you from one relay to the other... how did the "other" (2nd) one get built and put into position?The citadel was essentially the "master" relay, if that is indeed gone, how are these new ones tied together. How come they can rebuild relays now, but at the height of this (pre war) they didn't build any relays?

ETC.... that is just one question that should be explained in full... we shouldn't have to speculate at all (if they say the relays are rebuilt).

In other words I am guessing Bioware will do exactly what they did with this ending: "It's this way because that is how we made it, you fill in the endings". With all the problems with the old ending it would be near impossible to fill in these details without literally creating a short "movie" not some cinematics and epilogue.

To me it just is too tall of an order to fill these plot holes withouta short movie, not just some cinematics and epilogue stuff.

Sure put faith in the same people that created the first ending which contained a plethora of issuesthat were left unexplained to some all these issues up and 'add closure', but I won't hold my breath.


I', guessing the more likely is: Oh hey look the galaxy is somehow back on its feet, no one starved due to (insert some insanely flawed reason here) and this is how all your choices turned out... the end. Leaving MORE problems, but also more closure (if we take all their stuff at face value and don't look further into it - which I refuse to do-)

But, those who wish to hold out hope... good on you. I don't see what kind of slack they need? It's not like us on these forums is hampering them from creating the ending...

I'll give them the chance to do the cinematics/epilogue... but from a logistics standpoint, I'm holding out no hope here... but I will give them credit due if they somehow plug the massive issues, and provide good closure showing our choices in the 3 games come to fruition... I want a good 10minutes of pure fighting, where I see my choices (ie: rachni queen) showing how they specifically helped in the final battle after my A/B/C choice.

Modifié par AIR MOORE, 07 avril 2012 - 05:09 .