292 réponses à ce sujet

[merylisk]

I completely agree with the OP.

[Vexia2070]

KaeserZen wrote...

Folks of the Retake movement, let us be honest for a moment.

Even if yesterday's announcement was not the ideal outcome many of us expected, everyone has got to admit that there was a lot of over-reaction following it. I'll grant that communication is difficult between BioWare and its consumers, which leads to massive and destructive misunderstandings.

When people heard the endings were not going to be changed, many if not most immediately understood that as : the endings will remain the same as they are now.

This is a dangerous assumption.

By thinking this, you imply that every BioWare effort is going to yield to different flavours of the same. You are assuming BioWare will not change the status quo at the end of the cutscenes. You assume this will imply : No more space travel, entire species starving to death, Normandy lost forever.
You assume they will only explain this longer. And you are right to think that this will be even more depressing.

However, by doing so, you actively don't consider the entire realm of possibilities that they can play with. There is exactly the same chance that they provide an acceptable closure on many themes present on the endings : Galactic Civilisation reborn in a new way, free of all Reaper directions, free of fatalism / Normandy crew having survived and rescued by Shepard is he's alive, other main characters / Fate of our friends and allies within this new galactic context.

You assume the clarification bit to be a slap in the face by the developpers. Clarification and context elements are likely to occur during the Citadel bit. If they add cut VO, add new one, they can also change or alter existing elements, and put them more in the context of the entire series. For example, if the Reaper's goal is actually to prevent organic extinction on a galactic scale from synthetics, they could tie it to why the Reapers let us grow until we can bring them something (as Sovereign and Harbinger said) : With every new cycle, the new organics do not start technology from naught based on solely what the Reapers provide them : they also use technology from the previous organic that was developped based on technology from previous cycles, etc, etc.
As such, we can easily deduce that the synthetics likely to be built are going to be stronger and more efficient each cycle, which is why the Reapers need these new species to increase their own strength.

Some things are likely to stay, but they can stay in a new version, tying more to the rest of the series.

We all know that BioWare is capable of miraculous writing. They have demonstrated it enough with the entire ME series, save from the endings. Now, they are offering us to trust them that they will uplift the ending's writing to the level of the rest of the game. And you turn them down ?

You turn them down because you assume the Retake has lost. On the contrary, I beleive the Retake as won.

We have brought to their attention the elements that are dissatisfying. This entire sub-forum is a rich database of what needs to be adressed. They are now enlightened about what they need to work on. And I say, let them do it. They are better writers than us, and with all this feedback, they must now perceive what has gone wrong.

More importantly, since the release date is summer, it gives them between 3 and 6 months to work on that. It means, that they will work on that for between 12,5% and 25% of the time it took to develop ME3. Just for the new endings ! Knowing BioWare, I am sure that there will be some quality, with such long development time.

And, since it will take them 3 to 6 months to churn this extended ending, it also probably means that its content are not entirely set in stone. It is THE chance to really put forward what you want to see. It is OUR chance to dialog, albeit indirectly through the forums, with the developpers. It is OUR chance to take part in the story of Mass Effect.

We have held the line, we have gotten results. It is something we should be proud of. Few have succeeded what we accomplished.
I, like many others, have been very vocal on these forums, but in my case it was mostly light hearted sarcasm, to tease and bring attention to key points I thought were needed to be adressed.

Now, that we have gotten the attention of those infinitely our greater, is not the time to shut down the dialog and turn away what we have been offered. Keep talking CONSTRUCTIVELY. Bring up your points. Many have excellent reasons with logic that can't be turned down. These quality posts have a chance to influence the development direction they are taking with Extended Cut.

Doomsay or ragequit all you want, in the end this will bring nothing to Retake.

Keep holding the line to influence the direction the development has made, by highligting key disappointing points, by letting know which aspects of the current endings you want altered and clarified, because it is probably our only chance to do so.
More importantly, remain constructive and civil. Always.

And if their efforts still do not live up to your expectations, once it has been released, then it's only natural to be entitled take your money elsewhere. BioWare knows that, and this is why they are working on the endings.

____

Hold the line, with wit, will and smile.

Okay. its offical, you alone have fully renewed my hope. <3
I will wait and see.

[Lendorien]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's relevant here too.

"Clarifying" is Bioware doing the minimum to fix the problem. And frankly, it's working on a lot of people here.

They promised choices. They promised not to do a "lost" style ending. They promised that what you did up to the end would matter.

I do not think it's unreasonable for people to hold Bioware to the expectations THEY created in numerous interviews where they talked about the ending and how player choice would affect it. In essence, they lied. Clarifying the ending doesn't fix the fact that they lied to their consumers, intentionally or not. Nor does it give the consumers what Bioware promised in those interviews.

I think that as a consumer I have every right to be dissatisfied with Bioware for refusing to give me what they promised the game would contain.

Clarifying, as Bioware put it, is not giving fans what we were promised.

[KaeserZen]

Vexia2070 wrote...

Okay. its offical, you alone have fully renewed my hope. <3
I will wait and see.

Thanks for the vote of confidence !

If you appreciate this post, I wouldn't mind receiving Red, Blue, Green cupcakes

[Senario]

How are we supposed to work with them if we have pages and pages of content that people have written and all Bioware has done is "listen" but not "Act" on them? Will they trust fans or even ask them to input?

My guess is no, they will write up a few ending cut scenes and give it out for free and hope to be free of all responsibility.

[KaeserZen]

Lendorien wrote...

I posted this elsewhere, but it's relevant here too.

"Clarifying" is Bioware doing the minimum to fix the problem. And frankly, it's working on a lot of people here.

They promised choices. They promised not to do a "lost" style ending. They promised that what you did up to the end would matter.

I do not think it's unreasonable for people to hold Bioware to the expectations THEY created in numerous interviews where they talked about the ending and how player choice would affect it. In essence, they lied. Clarifying the ending doesn't fix the fact that they lied to their consumers, intentionally or not. Nor does it give the consumers what Bioware promised in those interviews.

I think that as a consumer I have every right to be dissatisfied with Bioware for refusing to give me what they promised the game would contain.

Clarifying, as Bioware put it, is not giving fans what we were promised.

I feel that you are looking at half the announcement there.

It will provide clarification AND closure. Thus negating the "Lost" style ending we have got as of now.

[KaeserZen]

Senario wrote...

How are we supposed to work with them if we have pages and pages of content that people have written and all Bioware has done is "listen" but not "Act" on them? Will they trust fans or even ask them to input?

My guess is no, they will write up a few ending cut scenes and give it out for free and hope to be free of all responsibility.

I don't think they wil half-ass it. Too much at stake there, it would have been better to do nothing.

[DrowVampyre]

Hibernating wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Sorry OP. This was the last straw. Bioware will only understand money. So many people, including myself, will take that away from them. No new games , No DLC, etc.

Thats why the are doing this DLC for free! for the money! *facepalm*

That's exactly why they're doing it. Not for money from that DLC, but so we'll keep buying from them.

"Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future? No. BioWare strongly believes in the team’s artistic vision for the end of this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned."

That's all we need to know to know this "extended cut" is going to be just as bad. Crap that's 10 times as long is still crap. And if they keep trying to shove it on us, I hope their company's end is just as bitter and coming very soon.

[Iakus]

KaeserZen wrote...

You are playing on words there.

To me, adding closure is changing the endings, because we haven't got it.

Adding a new room to a house IS changing the house.

the question then becomes 'What new room got added"?  Bioware's not talking about that yet, and that's what has people riled up.

No new endings, so what are we getting?  What's getting clarified, and what form will this closure take?  THe sooner this stuff gets answered the sooner people will calm down (I hope)

[Lendorien]

KaeserZen wrote...

I feel that you are looking at half the announcement there.

It will provide clarification AND closure. Thus negating the "Lost" style ending we have got as of now.

A clarified end doesn't fix the choices issue.  My choices over 3 games still don't matter with a "clarified end." 

And I disagee that clarifying the "starchild" will help make the ending any less of a "Lost" ending.  Lost had a non-sequitur ending that made little sense within the context the rest of the series.  So does ME3.

Modifié par Lendorien, 06 avril 2012 - 07:08 .

[KaeserZen]

iakus wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

You are playing on words there.

To me, adding closure is changing the endings, because we haven't got it.

Adding a new room to a house IS changing the house.

the question then becomes 'What new room got added"?  Bioware's not talking about that yet, and that's what has people riled up.

No new endings, so what are we getting?  What's getting clarified, and what form will this closure take?  THe sooner this stuff gets answered the sooner people will calm down (I hope)

You are completely right. As I mentionned in the OP, communication is difficult between the fans and BioWare, for some unknown reasons.

People base their hate on what they assume this Extended Cut will be. I suggest we remain cool-headed but we stick by our principle, until we see what they have in store.

In which case, it's completely fine if you boycott BioWare

[humansrsuperior]

KaeserZen wrote...

Senario wrote...

How are we supposed to work with them if we have pages and pages of content that people have written and all Bioware has done is "listen" but not "Act" on them? Will they trust fans or even ask them to input?

My guess is no, they will write up a few ending cut scenes and give it out for free and hope to be free of all responsibility.

I don't think they wil half-ass it. Too much at stake there, it would have been better to do nothing.

This is what I'm thinking as well.  This is literally their last shot, and they MUST recognize the magnitude of what's going on.  In the words of Master Yoda, "Do, or do not.  There is no try."  They HAVE to make this work, or else it'll be a death stroke for them.  End of.  

I agree "clarification and closure" can mean a lot of things.  Not a wholly new ending, but maybe we WILL see Garrus and Shepard having beer on the beach, or blue babies with Liara, or the Normandy crew being rescued and/or a memorial for Shepard or something.  There are lots of possibilities here.  I'm not getting TOO hopeful (don't want to crash and burn again; I don't trust Bioware anymore), but I'm reserving judgement.

After this though, well. 

[KaeserZen]

Lendorien wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

I feel that you are looking at half the announcement there.

It will provide clarification AND closure. Thus negating the "Lost" style ending we have got as of now.

A clarified end doesn't fix the choces issue.  My choices over 3 games still don't matter with a "clarified end." 

And I disagee that clarifying the "starchild" will help make the ending any less of a "Lost" ending.  Lost had a non-sequitur ending that made little sense within the context the rest of the series.  So does ME3.

You are STILL reading half the announcement.

Clarification And Closure.

AND Closure.

Two things, not only clarification.

[Vexia2070]

KaeserZen wrote...

Vexia2070 wrote...

Okay. its offical, you alone have fully renewed my hope. <3
I will wait and see.

Thanks for the vote of confidence !

If you appreciate this post, I wouldn't mind receiving Red, Blue, Green cupcakes

Will You settle for Chocolate with fuge-browny icing and sprinkles.
Have a new batch made.:happy:

[cardinalally]

I hope what the OP says happens. It can be done, editing and adding new scenes can dramatically alter the meaning of the endings. Is this perfect...no. The endings are as they stand really bad in the context of the story but if they can fix it or at least let me hate it less. Well more power to them.

[dallicant]

Fundamentally, I still find the StarChild's presentation flawed beyond repair, and I am disappointed (though not entirely surprised) that the DLC will not eliminate the character. However, I am hopeful that the DLC will at least provide closure.

[KaeserZen]

Vexia2070 wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

Vexia2070 wrote...

Okay. its offical, you alone have fully renewed my hope. <3
I will wait and see.

Thanks for the vote of confidence !

If you appreciate this post, I wouldn't mind receiving Red, Blue, Green cupcakes

Will You settle for Chocolate with fuge-browny icing and sprinkles.
Have a new batch made.:happy:

If you were Prothean, you would most certainly be the avatar of temptation.

Modifié par KaeserZen, 06 avril 2012 - 07:10 .

[Iakus]

humansrsuperior wrote...


This is what I'm thinking as well.  This is literally their last shot, and they MUST recognize the magnitude of what's going on.  In the words of Master Yoda, "Do, or do not.  There is no try."  They HAVE to make this work, or else it'll be a death stroke for them.  End of.  

The writers for this DLC better bring their A-game or they may lose a lot more than they gain with this.  This is Bioware's Omega IV Relay.

Mr Hudson may want to look into doing some loyalty missions for his staff:D

[sirisaacx]

Deflagratio wrote...

The ending will remain kind of stupid, unless more indoc. evidence pops up, enough to conclusively rule it as the truth to all but the most delusional.

But stupid endings are hardly uncommon, even Bioshock, one of the greatest games of any generation has a terrible ending. They all can't be Red Dead Redemption. What's important is that the "Extended Cut" properly wraps up all the loose ends of franchise that have been left hanging. At least then, the Ending will have fulfilled it's obligation as an ending.

This is the best point I've seen made on these forums in a long time. As many have pointed out, Mass Effect has NEVER been about beating the Reapers. Mass effect is about your companions, their struggle, and the galaxy at large. And yes, it seems like the ending destroys these things, but I don't think it does. It alters the status quo, sure, but it wouldn't be hard to put some sort of hopful spin on the events of the ending.

And yeah, the main plot of Mass Effect 3, and indeed the trilogy, will always suck, which is unfortunate. But hey ME2 had an awful main plot and I still loved that game. Because even through all the stupid railroading and human reapers, it gave us a satisfying conclusion involving the characters we knew and loved, and the galaxy we've become so attatched to.

So while the main plot will always suck, the game can be good in spite of that, provided they give us some sort of satisfying emotional context, I don't CARE about the reapers. I don't even care that the galaxy is irrevocably altered. I just need some sort of emotional payoff. THAT'S why we all hated the ending, first and foremost, And this Extended cut can fix that.

[Mria]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Sorry OP. This was the last straw. Bioware will only understand money. So many people, including myself, will take that away from them. No new games , No DLC, etc.

yeah im glad to say i wont throw my money away in bioware anymore...dragon age 2 was already a bad as it was and with what they did with mass effect 3 is just unforgivable to me its just doesn't make any sense for what they did it that way and its is, imo, just sturborn stupidity.

If they could just see how good both for the game and their wallet it would be to extend the game a while longer (with the indoctrination theory possibly) it would make the game not just good but the best game ever made by bioware. 

its just sad and frustrating to see that they are so blinded to it...

Actualy i think one big problem in all this is maybe, just maybe EA games wich just getting being a pushover in all this...i wouldn't be suprised if they had a hand in this matter

[KaeserZen]

sirisaacx wrote...

This is the best point I've seen made on these forums in a long time. As many have pointed out, Mass Effect has NEVER been about beating the Reapers. Mass effect is about your companions, their struggle, and the galaxy at large. And yes, it seems like the ending destroys these things, but I don't think it does. It alters the status quo, sure, but it wouldn't be hard to put some sort of hopful spin on the events of the ending.

And yeah, the main plot of Mass Effect 3, and indeed the trilogy, will always suck, which is unfortunate. But hey ME2 had an awful main plot and I still loved that game. Because even through all the stupid railroading and human reapers, it gave us a satisfying conclusion involving the characters we knew and loved, and the galaxy we've become so attatched to.

So while the main plot will always suck, the game can be good in spite of that, provided they give us some sort of satisfying emotional context, I don't CARE about the reapers. I don't even care that the galaxy is irrevocably altered. I just need some sort of emotional payoff. THAT'S why we all hated the ending, first and foremost, And this Extended cut can fix that.

Salarian wisdom at its finest. !

[Doctoglethorpe]

Completely agree with OP.

Retake was a success.  Bioware have compromised.  Thats the most anybody should of expected.  The time to scream to be noticed is over, now we must be civil and supportive and give proper feedback that can shape the extended cut into as best an ending as it can be. 

Anybody who really expected Bioware to completely redo the whole ending should just step out the door right now.  That was a foolish thought.  Thats not how this works.  If your upset that they aren't willing to go that far, nothing will change your feelings.  Just leave.  Theres no point in staying and continuing to complain.  You'll only make it harder for those of us who wish to stay to voice constructive feedback on how best to go about the extended cut to be heard. 

[Asch Lavigne]

I really hope this will clear up/explain the holes and other things that made no sense in the current endings. I don't understand why everyone wants a 4th ending. That wouldn't fix the problems with the current 3. We'd just have 3 bad endings and one maybe decent one. I'm really hoping this extension or whatever clears some stuff up. Unfortunately there isn't anything that would make everyone happy.

I do understand people being upset over this announcement, I just don't share that point of view. Really we should be grateful Bioware is doing anything at all.

[Mria]

Mria wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Sorry OP. This was the last straw. Bioware will only understand money. So many people, including myself, will take that away from them. No new games , No DLC, etc.

yeah im glad to say i wont throw my money away in bioware anymore...dragon age 2 was already a bad as it was and with what they did with mass effect 3 is just unforgivable to me its just doesn't make any sense for what they did it that way and its is, imo, just sturborn stupidity.

If they could just see how good both for the game and their wallet it would be to extend the game a while longer (with the indoctrination theory possibly) it would make the game not just good but the best game ever made by bioware. 

its just sad and frustrating to see that they are so blinded to it...

Actualy i think the main big problem in all this is maybe, just maybe EA games wich is just  a pushover in all this...i wouldn't be suprised if they had a hand in this matter.

[Lendorien]

KaeserZen wrote...

You are STILL reading half the announcement.

Clarification And Closure.

AND Closure.

Two things, not only clarification.

Given that Bioware has consistently harped on the Artistic Integrity thing since the beginning and apparently had no problem with lying about the way they were doing the ending in the prerelease interviews, is it any wonder I'm taking this all with a grain of salt?

How to you keep the artistic integrity of the end if you change it?  It's not going to change. The Starchild will still make you make 3 choices. You'll still have the "reapers/destroy organics to save organics" circular logic and the relays being blown to bits. They plainly have said they are extending the end with additional cut scenes.  So, they'll lessen the colorful explosions and show how the normandy leaves the battle and rescues your dead companions.

Whoop-de-doo. The end will still be completely out of context in terms of game mechanics and lore of the rest of the series.

While I appreciate that people see Bioware's announcement as some sort of victory, I see it as a cop-out and them doing the minimum they need to in order to make the fan out-cry go away.

And yes, it apparently is working.

Modifié par Lendorien, 06 avril 2012 - 07:19 .