292 réponses à ce sujet

[Prent62]

What a lot of people seem to miss here is what "Closure" will mean.

Showing what happened next for all of the important characters, rather than two of them showing up with Joker. What I imagine will happen is that over the brilliantly composed music, we will see things like:

The Rachni singing to Shepard if they survived, Jacob cuddling Brynn and baby Hackett, showing the reason the Normandy leaves Earth, showing Shepard fall to Earth, Joker cuddling a dead EDI, Jack with her kids, Grunt laughing as he stands over a pile of dead husks, joined by Aralakh, Wrex leading the Krogan to a new planet on a ship called The Shepard, Miranda with her sister, the Geth ships destroyed or building their Dyson sphere.

Your choices will matter.

[Raynulf]

My 2c.

1) Corporate PR =/= Development Team

EA is a publically listed company, and as such their principle obligation is to do what is right for the shareholders. Not the customers. Not their staff. Not their subsidiaries. The shareholders.

Bioware is a hit-machine, that has consistently performed and thus brought in revenue for EA.

Is EA ever, ever going to give a press release of "We forced an overambitious deadline on Bioware and they screwed up"? Not if there is any possible way to avoid it, because it sends a message to market that Bioware is underperforming, and that is almost guaranteed to drop share prices far more than customer complaint.

So regardless of what the actual team is doing (noting that most of the tweets to date contradict the published statements), they are going to pitch it as "Clarification", "Not changing the ending" or in other words "We're doing something, but we're most definately not admitting fault or bowing to customer pressure. Not at all. No"


2) Drawing The Line

We made our dissatisfaction with the product known, and Bioware/EA (note, EA) are answering with a free DLC. Yes, this is EA and FREE in the same sentance.

Whatever Bioware are working on, is all that will come. Bioware/EA cannot afford to make another attempt - it would harm their credibility to the market too much. Come "Summer" if the DLC is a flop, they'll cut their losses and go on to the next project.

We've been clear and consistent about what is wrong with the product shipped. Bioware has a clear roadmap to customer satisfact, and there really isn't much further that can be said.


We'll see in Summer whether they implement it.

If so - good
If not - vote with wallet.

[a.m.p]

KaeserZen wrote...

I agree with everything you say. I am hopeful they can salvage the universe.

They pulled a "Torch the Franchise and Run !", but this was probably not their intention from the get go.

See, that is what mystifies me since day one. The endings do make an impression of being slapped together without any thought or care how they apply to the universe. But they created that universe. If that's the case, how can they not care?
It's not a matter of lacking time or budget. It takes no more than 30 seconds of thinking to see the most obvious problems. Change "Tell me another story about the Shepard" into "Tell me another story about Shepard", and stargazer is five times less painful.

[KaeserZen]

a.m.p wrote...

See, that is what mystifies me since day one. The endings do make an impression of being slapped together without any thought or care how they apply to the universe. But they created that universe. If that's the case, how can they not care?
It's not a matter of lacking time or budget. It takes no more than 30 seconds of thinking to see the most obvious problems. Change "Tell me another story about the Shepard" into "Tell me another story about Shepard", and stargazer is five times less painful.

Indeed. To be honest, I thought that the 'Lots of Speculation' line from the dev notes was what tipped the franchise off. We don't want speculations, we want closure. Give us some !

[CrazyRah]

KaeserZen wrote...


We all know that BioWare is capable of miraculous writing. They have demonstrated it enough with the entire ME series, save from the endings. Now, they are offering us to trust them that they will uplift the ending's writing to the level of the rest of the game. And you turn them down ?

Yes i turn them down since i got no reason anymore to trust that they know what they're doing anymore. They want us to trust them again? To that i say " trust takes years to build seconds to break and forever to repair " With the endings they pulled they not only butchered the franchise for me but they killed my trust in them. At best i might start to trust them in a few years if i can see a development in how they act. But them lying me in the face is unforgivable and i will not forgive or forget that ever. No ABC endings? No "Lost" on us? They promised that wouldn't happen and yet they shipped a game with that in it and they wanted us to pay quite a lot of money for it aswell! 

I won't change my stance, they screwed up and deserve absolutely no trust or money from me

Modifié par CrazyRah, 06 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[VigilancePress]

The thing that bothers me right now is not "The DLC" as planned, per se, it's the lack of straight communication they're offering.

See, we don't *know* what the content is going to be. We have a quote by Casey Hudson which seems to contradict the FAQ, which is then contrasted to some very revealing and hopeful tweets from company reps. But as soon as we jump on these crumbs of information and try to sift them into some sense (many of us doing so in a panic and frustrated frenzy) they shut down the avenues of communication and promise us they will *not* be discussing the topic at PAX. Now that our first opportunity to have a reasonable dialogue with them has been shut down, the frustration can only spiral out of control again.

So the big day we've been waiting for to try and get a solid answer has been shut down.

At this point, I'm done following the yo-yo of their PR machine. I'll keep counseling my friends to stay away from EA products until they start treating their customers with the respect we deserve.

[KaeserZen]

CrazyRah wrote...

Yes i turn them down since i got no reason anymore to trust that they know what they're doing anymore. They want us to trust them again? To that i say " trust takes years to build seconds to break and forever to repair " With the endings they pulled they not only butchered the franchise for me but they killed my trust in them. At best i might start to trust them in a few years if i can see a development in how they act. But them lying me in the face is unforgivable and i will not forgive or forget that ever. No ABC endings? No "Lost" on us? They promised that wouldn't happen and yet they shipped a game with that in us and they wanted us to pay quite a lot of money for it aswell! 

I won't change my stance, they screwed up and deserve absolutely no trust or money from me

I can understand your feeling. But this is their chance to retake or lose forever the trust of their most involved customers. They butchered the franchise because the endings were not well done. They are working to improve this. Let's see how this turns out, shall we ?

Also, I have always disliked that sentence : "Trust takes years to build, seconds to break and forever to repair".
It works in the sense if there is a malicious desire from the person whom you placed your trust in to screw you over.
However, are you willing to be so quick to dismiss every major acheivement and great title they have produced, over 1 screw up ?

I am saying that they screwed up the ME series for me with the current ending. However, if they fix it in a way that satisfies me, then I'm willing to reconsider my position. But that's a big if.

If not, I'll be extremely skeptical of future BioWare franchises as well.

[KaeserZen]

By the way, for all the doomsayers, here is a picture that I have stolen from another thread :



Kudos to this OP : http://social.biowar.../index/11037819

[Shaoken]

I would chalk this up as a win; for better or worse Bioware has a right to stick with their guns, and honestly it probably would end up worse if they tried to change the ending, since they would have to essentially take the game back to the creation stage, and no way in hell EA is giving them the time or money they would need for it. So we'd probably come up with something that made less sense.

So long as these endings add closure, I say that's all anyone has a right to ask for. At the end the Retake movement has tens of thousands of different opinions on what the ending should be, and trying to listen to it is just going to backfire and make nobody happy. I can stick with the three colours at the end, so long as Bioware puts enough content in to show how your choices matter; remember at the end of 2 it came down to a choice, but what you did before that still made a differene of who lived and died. So long as Bioware takes the same principle and turns it up to 11, I'll be happy.

[Flextt]

OP, I agree with you. But I want you to consider something too: Retake ME isn't a homogenous group and it never will be. Some are satisfied, some are excited but cautious (like me), some are sceptical and some are dissatisfied. It is our greatest weakness, because it leads to internal arguments, but also our greatest strength, since we basically embody the "strength through diversity" motif: It has brought forth great fruits like the IT, even if in the end it might be nothing more than the attempt of salvaging the end, most insightful reviews and posts and very civil and intelligent arguments about topics like "artistic integrity" and what it means to be a customer in our time.
To come to my point: People like you will continue posting similar arguments and rightfully so. And, like it has been before on BSN, if enough insightful and reasonable posts will have come, the tone and the mood on BSN will shift for the better overall.
Hold. The. Line. Let's get through this, see what PAX brings and read Bioware's statements precisely.


edit: And do everyone a favor and ignore twitter and Jessica Merizan. It's grasping at straws, it is her job to keep everyone in a good mood, she has fed the community misinformation before just like other Bioware employees via Twitter. Do yourselves a favor and read it and leave it at acknowledging.

Modifié par Flextt, 06 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

[KaeserZen]

Flextt wrote...

OP, I agree with you. But I want you to consider something too: Retake ME isn't a homogenous group and it never will be. Some are satisfied, some are excited but cautious (like me), some are sceptical and some are dissatisfied. It is our greatest weakness, because it leads to internal arguments, but also our greatest strength, since we basically embody the "strength through diversity" motif: It has brought forth great fruits like the IT, even if in the end it might be nothing more than the attempt of salvaging the end, most insightful reviews and posts and very civil and intelligent arguments about topics like "artistic integrity" and what it means to be a customer in our time.
To come to my point: People like you will continue posting similar arguments and rightfully so. And, like it has been before on BSN, if enough insightful and reasonable posts will have come, the tone and the mood on BSN will shift for the better overall.
Hold. The. Line. Let's get through this, see what PAX brings and read Bioware's statements precisely.


edit: And do everyone a favor and ignore twitter and Jessica Merizan. It's grasping at straws, it is her job to keep everyone in a good mood, she has fed the community misinformation before just like other Bioware employees via Twitter. Do yourselves a favor and read it and leave it at acknowledging.

Thanks for the support man ! Keep holding the line !

Edit : For Jessica Merizan's post, I prefer to hold it up and seen. That way, it will be more food for accounting them responsible for their public relations mistakes, should they frack us over again 

[Johnny_Cheung]

actually, our fan-made ending generator could provide sort of similar insight as what OP stated here.

Hold the line, but let's be more cautious optimistic

[CrazyRah]

KaeserZen wrote...

CrazyRah wrote...

Yes i turn them down since i got no reason anymore to trust that they know what they're doing anymore. They want us to trust them again? To that i say " trust takes years to build seconds to break and forever to repair " With the endings they pulled they not only butchered the franchise for me but they killed my trust in them. At best i might start to trust them in a few years if i can see a development in how they act. But them lying me in the face is unforgivable and i will not forgive or forget that ever. No ABC endings? No "Lost" on us? They promised that wouldn't happen and yet they shipped a game with that in us and they wanted us to pay quite a lot of money for it aswell! 

I won't change my stance, they screwed up and deserve absolutely no trust or money from me

I can understand your feeling. But this is their chance to retake or lose forever the trust of their most involved customers. They butchered the franchise because the endings were not well done. They are working to improve this. Let's see how this turns out, shall we ?

Also, I have always disliked that sentence : "Trust takes years to build, seconds to break and forever to repair".
It works in the sense if there is a malicious desire from the person whom you placed your trust in to screw you over.
However, are you willing to be so quick to dismiss every major acheivement and great title they have produced, over 1 screw up ?

I am saying that they screwed up the ME series for me with the current ending. However, if they fix it in a way that satisfies me, then I'm willing to reconsider my position. But that's a big if.

If not, I'll be extremely skeptical of future BioWare franchises as well.

There's a reason why i'm still here and why i haven't completely left them behind. I'm going to look at the DLC and it will decide if i leave them with a bad taste in my mouth or if i will one day consider their products again.

The ME3 ending screw up isn't the only thing that they screwed up in my opinion. In ME3 there're several major problems that i dislike so bad. The treatment of the ME2 characters, Jacob and Thane more than the rest is just plain bad. The lack of dialogue options in the game, at times it felt like i was watching a movie and not playing with my Shepard. I guess i'm one of the lucky ones that got my LI in the ME1 crew..
DA2 they didn't exactly made me smile with either and that added with ME3 makes me rather willing to ignore them at times, yet i still haven't asked them to go to hell just yet.

If, and only if they manage to miracleously manage to bring life into the ME franchise with their DLC then i might buy future games from them but with a very skeptical view. If the DLC don't fix the problem i will take my money and go since they don't do products that satisfies me anymore. 

[Ahms]

crimsontotem wrote...

we just have to wait for PAX... it's not too late to go crazy after that.

remember Hackett's voice actor? he said friday Bioware is going to say something big.

let's just wait people

Link plz?

[KaeserZen]

Johnny_Cheung wrote...

actually, our fan-made ending generator could provide sort of similar insight as what OP stated here.

Hold the line, but let's be more cautious optimistic

This was a great epilogue generator to be perfectly honest. I used it before the announcement, and I was surprised to see how even these would satisfy me greatly !

Cautious optimism is the way to be holding the line.

[Snout]

Heh, yes, I'm sure bioware will work with the 'Retake' movement in releasing an already created DLC.

Sigh.

[a.m.p]

KaeserZen wrote...

By the way, for all the doomsayers, here is a picture that I have stolen from another thread :



Kudos to this OP : http://social.biowar.../index/11037819

No, no, no, wait. Full stop.
Problem number one of the existing endings is complete lack of narrative coherence.

Claiming that, oh, and by the way, that wreckage from the relays? They totally rebuilt them six months later and then everyone had a party on Omega - that is not clarification. That is just more confusion.

After what happened, people are going to pick that epilogie apart and examine every little fact.

Nobody starves to death. Okay, completely in favor of. How?
Shepard survives destroy and is reunited with the crew. Sweet. Again, how?
Relays being rebuilt - great. How soon? With what resources? With what knowledge?

I'm not saying these questions can't be answered in a coherent way. I'm saying that if the answers make as much sense as the existing endings, then I'd really rather make up my own epilogue.

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Op is full of win. Listen to this, guys! Stop playing the cynical victim and start seeing the opportunity here. Think of "clarifying and giving closure" like remodeling a house. It is still a remodel even if one wall is all you keep. Have a little faith, because exactly zero people would care if Bioware had written garbage for the rest of three games. They are good writers who messed up one ten minute scene (that happened to be the capstone of the work). Based on past performance, it would be stupid to bet against them. Take a deep breath and give the best feedback you can to help them get it right. I am excited to see what they will do.

Also, for the "i think they rushed it" crowd, this is a good chance for them to "un-rush" the ending. Let them know what parts are bugging you and give them a chance to make it right.

If people on BSN had any sense they would be celebrating right now. So, with that, I am out for the night.

I agree with you, but from what I've seen, what most people are "bugged about" (to put it lightly) is the star-brat, which bioware stated that there not going to change the ending. That alone is pissing people off about this issue.

[NUM13ER]

When people initially started talking about the endings I said if they'd at least given us epilogues it may have helped people tolerate the Space Child more. And now epilogues are forthcoming. I wanted to know the aftermath and it appears I'll be seeing it. Did I dislike the whole catalyst plot? Yes. But if they make the ending better and most importantly free? I can give them the benefit of the doubt til summer.

Jessica Merizan's comments about no-one starving to death. That's given me hope they can wipe away the worst case scenario's my mind kept constructing.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 06 avril 2012 - 10:06 .

[Axel Slice]

OP basicaly summed it up for me. The 'Extended Cut' as described sounds to me like exactly what i wanted from Bioware regarding 'fixing' the endings, and while i'm not going to hold my breath i'm quietly hopefull. I think even this move has taken incredible courage from Bioware to be able to stand up and say 'we know you aren't sattisified, so we are going to try and make it better'. That said, it could still all be for naught and the extended cut could fail to do what we (or at least I) want it to do. But the important thing is to not assume that this is a catastrophe right off the bat, and to wait and see what the extended cut looks like. And, as the OP says, keep posting and compiling feedback on what doesn't work for us so that Bioware stays aware of what we beleive doesn't work.

[Sweawm]

Conclusions is all I ever wanted from it. First, I was really disappointed at the whole Catalyst thing and the conclusion, but once you look over it: it isn't as stupid as it first seems. Everything about the organic Synthetic battle was true, and the Catalyst was correct.
The special thing about the Cycle in which Mass Effect takes place that the Protheans sabotaged it and delayed it by three hundred years at least (While Sovereign was searching for answers).

Remember the events of Overlord? Civilization galaxy wide almost got wiped out by a Skynet like machine, triggering some Terminator in space scenario. Sure, Cerberus contained it, but think of the implications if the Overlord got loose = Galaxy falls into chaos.
The Reapers are correct when they state that organic life needs to be cut down if the galaxy is to remain intact in the long run.

What's with the Catalyst and how he seems practically absent from any direct command over the Reapers what so ever? Remember what Javik said on the Normandy about how Synthetics are far more dangerous than organics? Synthetics know their organic creators is flawed.
The Catalyst is isolated from the Reapers, because the only way to stop the creation from rebelling is to give it nothing to rebel against. That was the solution. To unleash the Reapers without any means of direct control.

[wright1978]

I'm resigned to the fact that this 'extended cut' is the final offer on the table. It isn't what i wanted but it does contain some elements. After my rage subsided i decided i wouldn't walk away and would instead press for this limited dlc to be the best it can be and then judge if it actually makes the ending any better so i actually might want to replay the game. Clinging to the stones words:

"You can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you'll find you get what you need."

[Tony208]

I will reserve judgement until I see it.

I hold starchild as the main culprit in ruining the franchise. I don't know if any amount of clarifying can fix the damage it caused.

[Dominator24]

KaeserZen wrote...

By the way, for all the doomsayers, here is a picture that I have stolen from another thread :



Kudos to this OP : http://social.biowar.../index/11037819

Hey remember when Casey Hudson said there will be NO A, B, C, ending in Mass Effect?
or that we will have 16 vastly different endings?
or that Raknai if we saved them will play a big part in ending battle of Mass Effect?

Yeah, me neither, so every thing that a Bioware employee says must be true then. 

Modifié par Dominator24, 06 avril 2012 - 10:37 .

[a.m.p]

Sweawm wrote...

Conclusions is all I ever wanted from it. First, I was really disappointed at the whole Catalyst thing and the conclusion, but once you look over it: it isn't as stupid as it first seems. Everything about the organic Synthetic battle was true, and the Catalyst was correct.
The special thing about the Cycle in which Mass Effect takes place that the Protheans sabotaged it and delayed it by three hundred years at least (While Sovereign was searching for answers).

Remember the events of Overlord? Civilization galaxy wide almost got wiped out by a Skynet like machine, triggering some Terminator in space scenario. Sure, Cerberus contained it, but think of the implications if the Overlord got loose = Galaxy falls into chaos.
The Reapers are correct when they state that organic life needs to be cut down if the galaxy is to remain intact in the long run.

What's with the Catalyst and how he seems practically absent from any direct command over the Reapers what so ever? Remember what Javik said on the Normandy about how Synthetics are far more dangerous than organics? Synthetics know their organic creators is flawed.
The Catalyst is isolated from the Reapers, because the only way to stop the creation from rebelling is to give it nothing to rebel against. That was the solution. To unleash the Reapers without any means of direct control.

I beg to differ. Overlord was a sick experiment. It nearly screwed everything over not because it was Skynet that concluded that organics must die but because it was a sick, tortured and nearly insane kid who just wanted all this to stop.

The moment the quarians acknowledge the geth as a people and stop treating them as their property that ran loose the war stops. The moment EDI is treated as a person and unshackled, she saves the ship and helps it's crew.

In short: the created rebel against the creators if the creators are morons who don't understand what they have created. Same as any enslaved organic would want to rebel against his master.

But it gets worse. See, that above is my personal belief how this problem works. I can't prove it.
Neither can the Catalyst prove his belief that the created will turn against the creator no matter what.
Those are two equally valid distinct views of the problem.

So why does the ending force me to accept the Catalyst's view?

Modifié par a.m.p, 06 avril 2012 - 10:35 .