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Retake ME3 : Let's cut BioWare some slack and work together on Extended Cut


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#201
a.m.p

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D_Dude1210 wrote...

It's amazing how easily Bioware can crush some ppl's resolve via a singlr PR move (where the only real new information theynoffered was to given the "Clarification" DLC for free). Quite sad really.

What's even sadder is the retake FB page buying into their BS. The line is broken, it seems.

Touche EA PR team. Check and Mate.


Not from where I stand it isn't.
While I have always been saying and am going to keep saying that no amount of clarification can make the ending not broken, this is a positive development and can fix my second biggest problem with the ending which is torching the universe.

I'd call this a draw.

And hey, maybe when they try to clarify the starkid and find out that it's literally impossible, they'll change the endings after all. Because I sure don't see how starkid can be made to make sense without a fundamental rewrite.

Modifié par a.m.p, 06 avril 2012 - 02:34 .


#202
warrior256

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As someone who is angry about the extended cut dlc, I'll try to offer my opinion here. I just don't see why I should be happy about what we are getting. Really, I literally cannot understand why. Bioware has shown that they are NOT listening to us. We wanted alternative endings but even that is off the table. It's clear to me from the wording of the announcement that they don't give a damn about us and do not want to work with us. Bioware hasn't given me any reason to have faith in them or trust them to do what is best for the series, so why should I?

Just my two cents. I'm not trying to be mad but I don't see much to look forward to in the summer.

#203
CasbynessPC

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If Bioware really wanted to troll everyone, they could just change nothing except at the very end, in the Grandpa Winter Space picture, just paint a Mass Relay into the background. No one starved! Closure for all!

I'd lol. Then I'd be MAD.

#204
macrocarl

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I respect that people are mad but there are a lot of other folks (myself included) that don't want new endings. And if additional content/ cut scenes/ whatever are added per decisions you make through out the game, isn't that technically new endings?

#205
Noelemahc

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macrocarl wrote...

I respect that people are mad but there are a lot of other folks (myself included) that don't want new endings. And if additional content/ cut scenes/ whatever are added per decisions you make through out the game, isn't that technically new endings?

Only if they're VERY LONG and VERY DIVERSE. As it sounds now, they're expanding on the already-flawed premise that Shepard will still have to bow down to the Starchild and throw away his soul/life/integrity/apple pie regardless.

With the other hand, however, the "rebuilding mass relays is possible" tweet from Jessica Merizan shows that they did listen to SOME of the complaints.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 06 avril 2012 - 02:50 .


#206
JackN7

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We shouldn't cut them slack at all, I don't think that i've ever seen so much false advertising for one product and then they have the nerve to go on about some bull**** artistic integrity when they copy and paste the endings off another game, Lieoware

#207
D_Dude1210

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a.m.p wrote...

D_Dude1210 wrote...

It's amazing how easily Bioware can crush some ppl's resolve via a singlr PR move (where the only real new information theynoffered was to given the "Clarification" DLC for free). Quite sad really.

What's even sadder is the retake FB page buying into their BS. The line is broken, it seems.

Touche EA PR team. Check and Mate.


Not from where I stand it isn't.
While I have always been saying and am going to keep saying that no amount of clarification can make the ending not broken, this is a positive development and can fix my second biggest problem with the ending which is torching the universe.

I'd call this a draw.

And hey, maybe when they try to clarify the starkid and find out that it's literally impossible, they'll change the endings after all. Because I sure don't see how starkid can be made to make sense without a fundamental rewrite.


Sadly, I would love to believe that you are right. However, I've got a little experience with PR. and this all stinks of a PR move made to pick apart organized protest. From my analysis, it seems like the direction they're going is:

-offer an olive branch (that in no way contradicts prior PR communication message)
-divide and conquer (by offering the more moderate factions what they're asking as long as it does not contradict PR comm message)
-get moderates on your side, use them and insiders to discredit/dissent against disatisfied factions from within and whittle down their resolve.
-stall for time til said factions lose resolve (a noncompromise disguised as one).
-offer another olive branch (see above) to pull more ppl out and slowly pick group apart.
-rinse and repeat.

It's already begun. Sadly, by the time ppl realize things. It'll be too late. I hope I'm wrong but the language/timing/motives/direction seems to point to this.

Like I said before, touche Bioware/EA.

Check and Mate.

#208
D_Dude1210

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I meant:
-offer another olive branch (a noncompromise disquised as a concession) to pull more ppl out and slowly pick the group apart.

#209
Njald

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We all owe it to ourselves to get informed before we purchase. If we spend money without assurance and go on brandname or marketing bs alone we risk getting shafted. Like the Ford Pinto, MassEffect3 unexpectedly burned us.

But while we wait the doom and gloom is fully justified because it is a part of a conversation with Bioware. A conversation where they only respond if we are adamant enough. It's literally like they only understand English if we just SPEAK LOUD ENOUGH!

The presreleases follows a format that indicates that, while being a step in the right direction, the ending DLC probablyt isn't what the franchise or the fans need. Us giving the feedback and asking for clarification about "clarification" can, as long as it is civil, only be a good thing.

Most of the logistical problems of the RGB ending can be solved with 3 "easy" scenes. Then add in race/person splashscreens/animations and you are done. If they do that the ending at least is functional even if it breaks with themes and spits on RPG gameplay.
These scenes inject more time inbetween the scenes where Shepard finalizes Casey/Macs insane highschool writing asignment.
Here is an example of the three scenes I outlined earlier that goes like this:
A) Hackett announces the crucible has failed and Shepard is lost so the other races starts to falter and Hackett has to order retreat and regrouping.
B) Joker swings in and pick up a shuttle with crew members from Earth surface. He hangs around near Earth until the rest of them begs him to go. He refuses to leave Shepard who could be alive but finally has to give in and heads for the Mass Relay.
C) Last bonus scene is where the maroon Normandy crew finds something on the planet that enables them to survive. Either spacemagic handwaving or secret base that can sustain both dextro and sino aminoacid races. (or whatever is needed, Joker medicine etc)
Then add splashscreens Animal House style.

These three easy scenes won't remove the immensly stupid ChildGod logic or the theme breaking but it atleast stiches the corpse together and runs lightning through it. Nobody is truely happy but atleast most people can walk away from the series with something gained. EA can sell their DLC, Bioware isn't shunned and the retakers got something from a place where nothing was expected.
An all around disapointing dinner at the "fishslap restaurant" but atleast we had a few beers and enjoyed the company.

In this scenario is't quite easy to put in some Shepard rescue. (if your EMS is high enough then Joker has more time to stay around and pick Shepard up). Even higher EMS means the retreat comes later and the Normandy is stranded within normal FTL range from Earth (garden planet) and is picked up a few years later. (blue babies an all).

Final scene is Shepard and Garrus walking along the shore thinking about the seashells Mordin wanted to study. In the background a little house Shepard built her/himself with LI and babies on the porch (unless Garrus was LI).
We get happy ending.

The company without integrity and the writer withour artistic sense get's to keep their "AI" while the rest of us will settle for mediocracy. Just like EA expects us to.


Edit PS: Shepard on Earth is only one scene away. Just show Shepard fleeing from explosion into a beam that magically sends her/him to the surface. 
Unfortunatly this ending either breaks or forces Shepard to murder the Geth and EDI.

Modifié par Njald, 06 avril 2012 - 03:06 .


#210
Guest_PresidentCowboy_*

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warrior256 wrote...

As someone who is angry about the extended cut dlc, I'll try to offer my opinion here. I just don't see why I should be happy about what we are getting. Really, I literally cannot understand why. Bioware has shown that they are NOT listening to us. We wanted alternative endings but even that is off the table. It's clear to me from the wording of the announcement that they don't give a damn about us and do not want to work with us. Bioware hasn't given me any reason to have faith in them or trust them to do what is best for the series, so why should I?

Just my two cents. I'm not trying to be mad but I don't see much to look forward to in the summer.


If they're not listening and don't give a damn, why are they re-prioritising their schedule and losing money to work on a free DLC for anti-enders? They don't have to do this at all but they are. I hated the ending I accept that people like them and patching them out would be a nightmare, but they're expanding on the ending to fill in the plot holes and give closure. If they can't retcon starchild out then it'll still be a stupid ending but it's a compromise. Just because they're not begging for your forgiveness and doing exactly what you want doesn't mean they're not listening, it just means they're not listening to only you.

#211
Noxios

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Jackal7713 wrote...

Sorry OP. This was the last straw. Bioware will only understand money. So many people, including myself, will take that away from them. No new games , No DLC, etc.


This

#212
Chronor

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I'm with D_Dude1210 on this.

Purely from a customer perspective, I do not and cannot understand why people are actually, what?, satisfied with the Extended Cut announcement. I'm one of those unlucky few who bought the CE edition for PC & 360. That's $160 right there. All this with the assumption (asinine me) that the product I will have in my hands was a complete product with up to 16 DIVERSE endings for my enjoyment.

What did we get? ONE ending with color variation. (Can you not feel the fizzle and the rage?) Now the upcoming DLC WILL NOT change the ending based upon *cough* questionable "artistic integrity." Sure they will offer clarification and closure somehow, BUT that still does not equate to "wildly divergent" endings! I mean no matter how you try to spin it, how can you think clarification and closure encompass 16 different endings?

I'm not sure if the yay-sayers are just grasping at straws or just that easily mollified. I would hope people will actually take a better stance on something as egregious as this travesty of an ending.

Well, personally, I'll accept Free DLC for the planned closure, but I will not be looking back. EA/BW have really excreted on themselves and the fans who pay their paychecks. And to those who actually think BW were listening, take a step back and really look at the situation. As someone mentioned, there were plenty of suggestions & requests for new endings. There's no need to rehash the same points. If BW actually did listen, they only listened with one ear because, to be frank, clarification and closure (cinematics & some dialogue) was the easiest way out, not the RIGHT way or the BETTER way, the easiest way out. While clarification & closure is certainly one of the points the Retake Movement wanted, there were many who wanted the diverse endings as promised, including me.

Peace

#213
D_Dude1210

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PresidentCowboy wrote...

warrior256 wrote...

As someone who is angry about the extended cut dlc, I'll try to offer my opinion here. I just don't see why I should be happy about what we are getting. Really, I literally cannot understand why. Bioware has shown that they are NOT listening to us. We wanted alternative endings but even that is off the table. It's clear to me from the wording of the announcement that they don't give a damn about us and do not want to work with us. Bioware hasn't given me any reason to have faith in them or trust them to do what is best for the series, so why should I?

Just my two cents. I'm not trying to be mad but I don't see much to look forward to in the summer.


If they're not listening and don't give a damn, why are they re-prioritising their schedule and losing money to work on a free DLC for anti-enders? They don't have to do this at all but they are. I hated the ending I accept that people like them and patching them out would be a nightmare, but they're expanding on the ending to fill in the plot holes and give closure. If they can't retcon starchild out then it'll still be a stupid ending but it's a compromise. Just because they're not begging for your forgiveness and doing exactly what you want doesn't mean they're not listening, it just means they're not listening to only you.


It's a PR move to pick apart the anti-ender's movement and to allow smoother future releases. They'll prolly write this off as a PR/Marketing expense with all the bad publicity they got recently.

#214
Torrible

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D_Dude1210 wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

D_Dude1210 wrote...

It's amazing how easily Bioware can crush some ppl's resolve via a singlr PR move (where the only real new information theynoffered was to given the "Clarification" DLC for free). Quite sad really.

What's even sadder is the retake FB page buying into their BS. The line is broken, it seems.

Touche EA PR team. Check and Mate.


Not from where I stand it isn't.
While I have always been saying and am going to keep saying that no amount of clarification can make the ending not broken, this is a positive development and can fix my second biggest problem with the ending which is torching the universe.

I'd call this a draw.

And hey, maybe when they try to clarify the starkid and find out that it's literally impossible, they'll change the endings after all. Because I sure don't see how starkid can be made to make sense without a fundamental rewrite.


Sadly, I would love to believe that you are right. However, I've got a little experience with PR. and this all stinks of a PR move made to pick apart organized protest. From my analysis, it seems like the direction they're going is:

-offer an olive branch (that in no way contradicts prior PR communication message)
-divide and conquer (by offering the more moderate factions what they're asking as long as it does not contradict PR comm message)
-get moderates on your side, use them and insiders to discredit/dissent against disatisfied factions from within and whittle down their resolve.
-stall for time til said factions lose resolve (a noncompromise disguised as one).
-offer another olive branch (see above) to pull more ppl out and slowly pick group apart.
-rinse and repeat.

It's already begun. Sadly, by the time ppl realize things. It'll be too late. I hope I'm wrong but the language/timing/motives/direction seems to point to this.

Like I said before, touche Bioware/EA.

Check and Mate.


Lots of presupposition. Any facts to back it up apart from 'it has been done before' or "they lied to us they will do it again' ? 

Edit: Never mind, just saw the 'I hope I'm wrong' part. 

Modifié par Torrible, 06 avril 2012 - 03:21 .


#215
a.m.p

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D_Dude1210 wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

D_Dude1210 wrote...

It's amazing how easily Bioware can crush some ppl's resolve via a singlr PR move (where the only real new information theynoffered was to given the "Clarification" DLC for free). Quite sad really.

What's even sadder is the retake FB page buying into their BS. The line is broken, it seems.

Touche EA PR team. Check and Mate.


Not from where I stand it isn't.
While I have always been saying and am going to keep saying that no amount of clarification can make the ending not broken, this is a positive development and can fix my second biggest problem with the ending which is torching the universe.

I'd call this a draw.

And hey, maybe when they try to clarify the starkid and find out that it's literally impossible, they'll change the endings after all. Because I sure don't see how starkid can be made to make sense without a fundamental rewrite.


Sadly, I would love to believe that you are right. However, I've got a little experience with PR. and this all stinks of a PR move made to pick apart organized protest. From my analysis, it seems like the direction they're going is:

-offer an olive branch (that in no way contradicts prior PR communication message)
-divide and conquer (by offering the more moderate factions what they're asking as long as it does not contradict PR comm message)
-get moderates on your side, use them and insiders to discredit/dissent against disatisfied factions from within and whittle down their resolve.
-stall for time til said factions lose resolve (a noncompromise disguised as one).
-offer another olive branch (see above) to pull more ppl out and slowly pick group apart.
-rinse and repeat.

It's already begun. Sadly, by the time ppl realize things. It'll be too late. I hope I'm wrong but the language/timing/motives/direction seems to point to this.

Like I said before, touche Bioware/EA.

Check and Mate.


Well, I have no real experience in PR but from a common sense point of view it seems that since they decided to do something about the situation - in this case release some sort of DLC, it's in their best interests to make it as close as possible to what people want without outright rewriting everything. It is after all targeted specifically at us, people who do have issues with the ending, not at the whole gaming audience that they marketed the game itself to.

It won't be enough, not by far, but it'll be better than nothing. The ending will be still bad, but not as bad as before. Well, hopefully.

It was always going to be some sort of compromise. They are offering their terms. We can accept them, or not. From what I'm seeing most here don't want to accept them. And who knows, if people keep protesting and making clear that clarifications are not enough to fix it, maybe they will reconsider and offer better terms. There is still a lot of time till summer and they didn't try to sell their planned DLC yet. I'm genuinely interested whether this situation will affect how they sell.

And even if we're stuck with clarifications, I'd rather Bioware has a complete understanding what kind of clarifications people want, so we don't get another stargazer.

Modifié par a.m.p, 06 avril 2012 - 03:36 .


#216
Fenrisfil

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Where I'm standing at the moment it seems possible this DLC could save my opinion of ME3, but it won't save my opinion of BW. Even if they grant my three wishes and manage to let the Geth and EDE be repaired in the destroy ending, give me a 3D model of Tali's face after getting back to her, and actually allow me to argue with Godkid (even if it's futile), I will still struggle to trust BW's ability to keep to a consistent style and quality in future games.

#217
Lendorien

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D_Dude1210 wrote...

Sadly, I would love to believe that you are right. However, I've got a little experience with PR. and this all stinks of a PR move made to pick apart organized protest. From my analysis, it seems like the direction they're going is:

-offer an olive branch (that in no way contradicts prior PR communication message)
-divide and conquer (by offering the more moderate factions what they're asking as long as it does not contradict PR comm message)
-get moderates on your side, use them and insiders to discredit/dissent against disatisfied factions from within and whittle down their resolve.
-stall for time til said factions lose resolve (a noncompromise disguised as one).
-offer another olive branch (see above) to pull more ppl out and slowly pick group apart.
-rinse and repeat.

It's already begun. Sadly, by the time ppl realize things. It'll be too late. I hope I'm wrong but the language/timing/motives/direction seems to point to this.

Like I said before, touche Bioware/EA.

Check and Mate.


I see that as what is happening too.  They are doing the minumum to satisfy the fans. The bottom line for me is that they lied to consumers and now they're giving us this olive branch that does not, on it's surface appear to be much more than additional cut scenes.

If they make more diverse and varied endings based on player choices throughout the 3 games (even if they keep the starchild hokum), maybe I'll be more satisfied.  But from the Faq they posted, that does not seem to be the case. I mean, look at the company. They actually thought people would be happy with the original ME3 endings.  It also took a lot of bad press to get them to do ANYthing at all.

Yes, they're doing SOMEthing, but they keep bandying around the Artistic Integrity PR garbage and have repeatedly been dismissive of fans in the wording of thier PR statement as if we're too stupid to get what they intended.

Doesn't it make sense that some of us are taking this with more than a little of a grain of salt?

Modifié par Lendorien, 06 avril 2012 - 04:03 .


#218
KaeserZen

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I feel very touched by all the activity on this thread.

Whether agreeing or disagreeing with my OP, people have taken the time to make enlightened post. This gives me hope for the community, and for giving ME3 and the entire ME series the ending it deserves.

Keep up the good discussions, I'm going to have to take a break from reading this thread, but I'll be back in a few hours !

#219
Mr.BlazenGlazen

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Damn, seems like my tweet has traveled to places.

#220
Jackal7713

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warrior256 wrote...

As someone who is angry about the extended cut dlc, I'll try to offer my opinion here. I just don't see why I should be happy about what we are getting. Really, I literally cannot understand why. Bioware has shown that they are NOT listening to us. We wanted alternative endings but even that is off the table. It's clear to me from the wording of the announcement that they don't give a damn about us and do not want to work with us. Bioware hasn't given me any reason to have faith in them or trust them to do what is best for the series, so why should I?

Just my two cents. I'm not trying to be mad but I don't see much to look forward to in the summer.

Agreed. That Post to Bioware's blog was one of the rudest things I have read in any PR statement. I'll see what they have for the free DLC. After that though I'll be parting ways with Bioware as a customer.

#221
KaeserZen

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Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Damn, seems like my tweet has traveled to places.


OMG, you are the one who tweeted Jessica Merizan in the first place ?

I feel like I have a V.I.P. in this thread. Can I get an autograph ?

Sir, I beleive you now are very well known in these forums.

Feel free to participate more here !

#222
humansrsuperior

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Fenrisfil wrote...

Where I'm standing at the moment it seems possible this DLC could save my opinion of ME3, but it won't save my opinion of BW. Even if they grant my three wishes and manage to let the Geth and EDE be repaired in the destroy ending, give me a 3D model of Tali's face after getting back to her, and actually allow me to argue with Godkid (even if it's futile), I will still struggle to trust BW's ability to keep to a consistent style and quality in future games.


This.  :(

#223
KaeserZen

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humansrsuperior wrote...
This.  :(


This is the cautiously optimistic approach we need :happy:

#224
Zix13

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It doesn't matter because the ending isn't a coherent narrative. Added closure doesn't fix the fundamental problems with the writing.

#225
ArkkAngel007

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Most of ReTake now is conspiracy theories, ignorance, and arrogance.

I love what this group has done in the past, and I've enjoyed my time with it. We accomplished more than what many have been able to in the past.

However, it is tearing itself apart, and is no longer about trying to get answers and working with BioWare for new endings in any way possible, whether we have to use a stick or a carrot to do so. It's only a medium of hate now.

I want to keep holding the line with you all, but where that line is, and what it is being held for, I can't be certain of anymore.

Hope you can all convince me that we remain strong and are doing this for the right reasons.