305 réponses à ce sujet

[thekelvman]

There is as much of a theme of hope and survival throughout the game as there is a theme of sacrifice. So you can't tell me a "happy" ending would go against the rest the game. It would fit in just as well as a dark one.

[EsterCloat]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

A happy ending generally entails Shepard getting back together with his crew and LI, which defeats the idea of sacrifice that was so prevalent throughout the game.

Bioware want the Reapers to seem as powerful as they made them out to be in ME1, and defeating them has to cost the player something - the player should feel the sacrifices made to defeat them. Being told that the Turians will go extinct or that Earth has fallen doesn't hold that much impact - its the characters we care for in the ME universe.

Bioware wanted the player to lose something in order to defeat the Reapers. Losing an entire species doesn't mean anything, but losing your crew or your LI does mean something to the majority of players. Having an ending where they can all reunite means the player hasn't really lost anything.

So your argument that in order for the game to have any value the theme of sacrifice, which isn't as prevalent as compromise and unity are, must be so strongly reinforced that Shepard has to lose everything?

I get sacrifice, okay? I get if Shepard had to lose some thing or things in order to save everything else. But why does he have to lose EVERYTHING to save NOTHING? I didn't "save" anything. My Shepard lost his life, he lost the family that he'd finally found, he lost the civilization he grew up in, he lost his will and strength, he lost his values, and he lost the love of his life.

For what? Reapers no more while the galaxy lies in ashes? A cadmean victory. I feel no accomplishment because I didn't accomplish anything. I gave up the things I was trying to protect in order to "accomplish" a hollow victory; to say, "I beat you, Reapers! I threw everything at you, the things I cherished most, to be rid of you and you're finally gone! I lie here now in ruin and cold, soon to lose the life that once fought so bravely, because I could not realize that some things should never be sacrificed. I have become the thing I've hated most because I just couldn't stop."

"...Do you think [victory] like this comes easy? There are sacrifices..."
"You've sacrificed too much."

Modifié par EsterCloat, 06 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[Reorte]

thekelvman wrote...

There is as much of a theme of hope and survival throughout the game as there is a theme of sacrifice. So you can't tell me a "happy" ending would go against the rest the game. It would fit in just as well as a dark one.

Spot on.

No-one expected to never lose anyone along the way, and that there would be no sadness. Those moments during the game were often handled very well indeed, and as some have said not having any would indeed cheapen the Reaper threat. Quite why that has to translate to Shepard losing everything though is beyond me. There's no rational reason for it. There is no rational reason to say someone should have to lose everything that personally matters in order to achieve a greater goal. And since it's those personal relationships are so important in this game it hurts that they are all dashed.

I didn't romance a character just to plunge them into grief at the end of the game.

An entirely linear medium like a film or book has to pick one set of outcomes. For an RPG to end so rigid is a failure (and only a happy ending would've been just as much of one).

[DESTRAUDO]

DarkShadow wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...
Tell that to ashley/ kaiden in ME1.

So this defines the one and only theme of the whole series? It was just one among many...

Tell that to mordin and legion in my playthrough. And that turian guy....Darren. And that squad of krogans. 

[Joccaren]

Honestly?
Because then Shepard couldn't be space Jesus.

I'm serious, look at how Bioware forced Shepard to end:
He 'sacrificed' himself on the Crucible [The Cross] under the eyes of the Catalyst [Representing God] to save the Galaxy.
And then you get the Normandy crash scene which I'm starting to see more and more how it equates to Adam and Eve.

A bit sad IMO.

[Reorte]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

DarkShadow wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...
Tell that to ashley/ kaiden in ME1.

So this defines the one and only theme of the whole series? It was just one among many...

Tell that to mordin and legion in my playthrough. And that turian guy....Darren. And that squad of krogans. 

There's a lot of space between losing some and losing everything. Previous Mass Effect games have had you losing some along the way but achieving the seemingly impossible at the end. I never saw anything to suggest that I wouldn't be standing triumphant with (some of) my friends when it finished (assuming that I hadn't made a complete mess of things).

Modifié par Reorte, 06 avril 2012 - 12:09 .

[CSunkyst]

nhsknudsen wrote...

I want it to make sense.

A happy ending isn't making sense in the context of the story, would diminish the threat of the Reapers. A victory without sacrifice (that we care about storywise, not billions of dead civilians faceless numbers) is worth nothing.
It just means that we were superior to the Reapers which we are not.

Many of Shep's closest friends can quite possibly commit suicide during the course of ME3, Shepard may even need to murder wrex or Mordin.  There is TOO MUCH death in ME3.  There's "victory though sacrifice" then there's just relentlessly depressing.  Would it have been so wrong for an OPTIONAL somewhat happily ever after for Shepard?

The game doesn't end with any sense of hope, it's relentlessly morbid.  Why do you think they stranded the Normandy crew on "New Eden?" the galaxy is such a horribly miserable place after ME3 they felt they had to pluck the surviving characters we care the most about out of that universe entirely and stick them into some kind of clumsy garden of Eden analogue. 

They even gave them creepy smiles when they walk out of the Normandy, and we KNOW that's bull****.  We know these people should be sad, but Bioware was tryin to shoehorn in some false positive emotion and so they slapped smiles on everyone's face.  It backfires though because "we" just died and our closest "friends" for 3 games don't seem to give a ****, and I think that's a large part of the reason people hate the Gilligan's Planet bit so much. 

Even if your Shepard does have that 3 second painful sounding gasp implying that he's basically hamburger but yet he "survived" (how uplifting) knowing he's going to be forever seperated from his closest friends and quite possibly LI is strike 2 against Gilligan's planet.  

I'm digressing, long story short, the problem is there is NOTHING uplifting about the ending, it would be a misunderstanding about what bittersweet means to call the ME3 ending bittersweet. 

Modifié par CSunkyst, 06 avril 2012 - 12:13 .

[nomoredruggs]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

nomoredruggs wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I don't think anyone was expected a unicorn farting a rainbow, but I really don't understand why my Shepard escaping with his life and reuniting with his love interest demeans the sacrifices made throughout the game.

qft

It does not. Hell the tweets from staff suggest in high destruct you will reunite with crew. The problem comes when people also want the destruct ending to save the geth and EDI. AKA 'optimal ending.' The problem here is that it would make everyone who chose to sacrifice themselves in other two endings look like idiots and removes the point of the entire ending choice.

I agree. There should be some give and take with the endings, but right now, we don't have any take. Hopefully this DLC will provide that.

I like the geth and EDI, but I'm gladly sacrifice them for Liara.

Yeah, I can live with that too. And right there, is another huge sacrifice, you're basicaly sacrifising all synthetic life.

I understand people who would like to keep geth and edi and relays and Shepard, I realy do, and I believe that perhaps it could have been woven into the story somehow, but at this point, it's too late for that.

[tobiasks]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I don't think anyone was expected a unicorn farting a rainbow, but I really don't understand why my Shepard escaping with his life and reuniting with his love interest demeans the sacrifices made throughout the game.

This.

[Hogge87]

LightweightJustice wrote...

Seriously.
Just explain it to me.
What is wrong with happy endings?
Is it SO bad to have one?
Is it so cool to dwell in darkness, tears, realism and despair? Is it so cool to watch someone die?
I’m not trying to whine here, I just want some logic. Not just “it’s manlier” or “too mainstream to have good ending”. And please don’t get me wrong. I like bittersweet endings…when they are destined to happen. In ME where “your choices matter”, I would like to HAVE A CHOICE TO CHOOSE.
And what exactly do people want these days? Do they want to smile or do they want to cry?

First off, I want to say that there's about a trillion threads about this question. Use the search function!

I personally think that the ultimate solution would be for there to be a "happy" ending, but that it should require an essentially perfect playthrough.

However, having something negative in there as well makes you feel more emotionally attached. I mean, would you have remembered the first Godfather as well if Vito hadn't died while playing with his grandchild?

[Joccaren]

Hogge87 wrote...

First off, I want to say that there's about a trillion threads about this question. Use the search function!

I personally think that the ultimate solution would be for there to be a "happy" ending, but that it should require an essentially perfect playthrough.

However, having something negative in there as well makes you feel more emotionally attached. I mean, would you have remembered the first Godfather as well if Vito hadn't died while playing with his grandchild?

I agree with you on your first two points.
As to having to have something negative - did it not have that already?
Thane was nothing? Mordin, nothing? Legion, Nothing? Grunt, nothing? Tali, nothing?
There is sacrifice all throughout this game, more is not needed at the end for arbitraryness. You would remember the loss of all your friends, and the sacrafice of Thessia, Palavan, Earth - hell, Anderson died in the ending too. There is unhappiness and bitterness all throughout the Mass Effect 3 game and ending, but I see little to add any 'Sweet'.

[FrozenDreamfall]

@NGC1300 Because depressing and dark and confusing doesn't mean deep and artistic.The whole damn series was dark,at least make the fight and sacrifices worth something,at this point we should let the Reapers take us,they wouldn't kill as many as would the relay explosions would.Also we want an ending that makes sense,so if you're fine with your plotholes and retarded Catalyst fine by me,but the vast majority of fans,true fans,aren't.

[Zoedoll]

thekelvman wrote...

There is as much of a theme of hope and survival throughout the game as there is a theme of sacrifice. So you can't tell me a "happy" ending would go against the rest the game. It would fit in just as well as a dark one.

This. Considering Shepard's heroic clambering out of rubble in ME1 and the fact you could get out of the "suicide mission" in ME2 without losing anyone it seems off-theme that you can't get a non-depressing ending. Not asking for rainbows and bunnies or anything but all of ME3 was plenty depressing enough as it is without adding insult to emotional injury.

[Auztin]

People do know the Reapers aren't stopped for good,right?On all 3(16) endings the Reapers aren't stopped for good.

[Kandon Arc]

I don't know why people conflate happy ending with implausible ending. The theme is just as much overcoming impossible odds as it is inevitable doom. ME2 gives a great template for how to do this. If you take the time and put in the work you can make the ending as happy as you want. In ME3, it should work similarly, if you want Shepard to sacrifice himself for the galaxy you can do that, if you want him to live on and reunite with his crew, that should also be an option - even if it is very hard.

Not to mention, by the time we reach the catalyst Anderson, Thane, Legion, and Mordin at least are dead. Thessia, Palaven, Earth and the Citadel are devasted. Trillions are already dead. You've already got the bitter part of bittersweet down. The sweet part never really came.

[Qutayba]

I wouldn't have a problem with a happy ending, but I don't think the ending has to be happy in order to be good and meaningful. Shepard's death should make a difference, and unfortunately, what we have seems to suggest that the sacrifice ends up making things worse overall.

[YukiFA]

Auztinito wrote...

People do know the Reapers aren't stopped for good,right?On all 3(16) endings the Reapers aren't stopped for good.

I assumed that they were at least disabled and vulnerable in the Destroy ending (the only one I took) as they had the same red discharge around them that Sovereign had at the end of ME1 when its barriers were disabled. Only instead of being temporary as a result of the "feedback loop"... something it was permanent as a result of the... Catalysts... red energy wave, allowing the surviving troops and ships to whale on them at their leisure,

[someone else]

You grave, serious - its-got-to-be-dark types kill me - the ending leaves us with nothing at present - an inexplicable galaxy-wide cataclysm and a few miscellaneous castaways an anonymous world - that's not "tragic" or a "noble sacrifice" - its just pathetic.

I at least want an option that vindicates Shepard's sacrifice, and I wouldn't mind a reunion option either - maybe when some of the "dark and deep" types get a bit older, they'll learn that life is generous with all the unhappiness and disappointment they can handle

[someone else]

Auztinito wrote...

People do know the Reapers aren't stopped for good,right?On all 3(16) endings the Reapers aren't stopped for good.

explain

[PsyrenY]

If there is a "happy golden ending" then all other endings become meaningless, Nonstandard Game Over.

It's like finishing one of those old adventure games with less than perfect score. It doesn't mean you had a different artistic experience, it means you ****ed up and missed something somewhere.

[Rhiens VI]

Deventh wrote...

NGC1300 wrote...

There are choices but there is also theme. It ain't the Sims.

Oh thank for your insightful comment!
This is also an rpg and choices matter (or do they?) so i want to have a happy ending.

Then suggest a choice that would lead to a happy ending. Consider the immense power and threat that is Reapers.  Consider that billions have died already, that whole star systems are being destroyed, Earth is in ruins, and several of your own former crewmates died.

Are you going to call on space magic to make everything right? Or are you interested only in your own little happy ending, with your LI and blue babies, while the rest of the galaxy goes to hell?

I honestly don't understand, how is it possible to reach a happy ending, given the circumstances.

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 06 avril 2012 - 01:20 .

[YukiFA]

So the ME2 ending in which every squad and crew member survived made all the other endings, no matter what choices you made or how you made it your own, meaningless?

Rhiens VI wrote...
Are you
going to call on space magic to make everything right? Or are you
interested only in your own little happy ending, in bed with your LI,
while the rest of the galaxy goes to hell? If so, I feel sorry for your
Shepard.

All 3 varieties of the ending already have some variant of "space magic" and one has Shepard (possibly) surviving.

What is wrong with having Shepard survive and having them continue their relationship that they may have cultivated through three games? If they survive should they have nothing? Don't they deserve to have the thing they were fighting to preserve?

Modifié par YukiFA, 06 avril 2012 - 01:22 .

[Pulletlamer]

Yeah I agree, OP. I would like to have the OPTION to have a happy ending. You know, if you build enough alliances, and take a lot of effort into the game, I would like to feel rewarded at the end, to see that my choices mattered. Instead I get a "choose how you die" option.
And don't even get me started with the God kid.

Apparently a happy ending was "too videogamey".

[ShallowlLife9871]

thekelvman wrote...

There is as much of a theme of hope and survival throughout the game as there is a theme of sacrifice. So you can't tell me a "happy" ending would go against the rest the game. It would fit in just as well as a dark one.

^^ this:police:

[Robhuzz]

thekelvman wrote...

There is as much of a theme of hope and survival throughout the game as there is a theme of sacrifice. So you can't tell me a "happy" ending would go against the rest the game. It would fit in just as well as a dark one.

QFT