305 réponses à ce sujet

[Kandon Arc]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bantz wrote...

Again the whole "shep lives if you do it right" argument doesn't hold much water with me. Let's break this down

Shep is badly injured upon meeting space brat
shep picks destroy and walks into flying shrapnel and explosions
Shep has a lot of synthetic implants which are all destroyed from the inside out
Shep is on citadel when it explodes
Either reenters earth or is someone still breathing in the floating rubble of the citadel in space
No
one knows he's alive which means it will be at best hours before anyone
finds him, in that state he wouldn't likely live long enough to be
found.

And that's the "best" ending we can get.

Bioware has confirmed that you live in that ending, so your whole list is a waste of text.

RyanPun1991 wrote...


****load of Turians
****load of Asari
****load of Human

Monkeysphere - these faceless masses mean nothing.

RyanPun1991 wrote...
Ending
Anderson (and possibly squadmates with low ems)
Quarian/Geth Arc
Legion (and possibly all other Geth, or all Quarians, plus Admiral Koris or his crew
Cerberus Coup
Thane (or Kirrahe, or Salarian councilor, plus VS if **** happens, Kelly if not warned)
Krogan/Turian/Salarian Arc
Mordin (and possibly Wrex later on if you sabotage the cure, plus Aralakh company or last Rachni Queen, and possibly Grunt. Also Lt. Victus)

Plus, Jack, Kahlee, David Archer, Falare, Brynn Cole, Gavin Archer and I think Samara and Jacob as well, are pretty much all gonna die with you choose not to do side missions.

pretty sure I missed others too
There's your sacrifice

You call that "sacrifice?"

Anderson and squad can live
Quarian and Geth can both be saved
Legion's "death" has no significance
Faceless masses die in Cerberus coup, meaningless
Thane was dying anyway, Kirrahe and Valern can be saved
Eve and Wrex can be saved
Mordin was close to death (and riddled with guilt) anyway
Arlakh company is a bunch of nameless krogan in pretty armor
Grunt and RQ can both be saved
Tarquin is a nobody
Everyone in your last sentence can be saved.

You're basically saying "if you suck, you can sacrifice a bunch of people you don't care about!" That's a false choice and meaningless sacrifice.

Meaningful sacrifice/tradeoffs can't be avoided just by "playing better." You can't save both Ashley and Kaidan; that is meaningful. People have debated it for years and are still debating it. Whereas anyone who says "I killed the Quarians!" or "I killed the Geth!" is simply trolling.

Wow dude, you are just cold. You don't give a crap about the majority of the people in the universe. Why do you consider it worth saving then? It ****ing meant something to me when I saw Thessia burn, when Mordin sacrificed himself, when Legion died, when Anderson died after he told me he was proud of me. When I make a choice and people die because of it, you bet I care, even if never met them before.

EDIT: and Anderson always dies, the variable is that you can have a conversation before that happens.

Modifié par Kandon Arc, 06 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[LightweightJustice]

Optimystic_X wrote...

LightweightJustice wrote...

Sooooo...you are saying that in age of 22 I must think only about death, economic crisis, political corruption, wars, job crisis and expensive medical treatment? You know I would like to think about something brighter for a change.

Then go play Disney games.

Oh well. I think this sums it pretty much.
We (pro Enders) are small crybabies, who don’t know a thing about life and how hard it is. Only the manliest of human beings can truly understand the beauty of death and destruction.

[Bantz]

my list of text isn't a waste. Again this is the end of a trilogy we shouldn't have to go to twitter to figure things out. Based on the end we get in game my list is correct. Shep technically has survived the explosion. So does he die painfully, cold and alone? Or does someone find him? Bioware could say on twitter today that "a few reapers managed to return to darkspace and avoid destruction, look out 50000 years later! Would that then fit into the ending we got IN GAME? no it wouldn't.

[PsyrenY]

RyanPun1991 wrote...

So according to you sacrifice only counts if someone important dies, plus if they are already "old" or "sick", then their sacrifice doesn't matter either
Fine[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie] you define it however way you want to

Of course it does.

When you watch a movie and a bunch of background extras die, do you feel the same way you do if a main character died? Of course not. It's storytelling 101, you have to make the audience care about someone or their death has no impact. When Garrus told you "5 million Turians died the first day on Palaven, 9 million the second" did you cry? But I bet you were on the edge of your seat when it looked like Grunt was going to die, weren't you?

RyanPun1991 wrote...

Plus, I totally acknowledge the fact that many names on my list can be saved  but depending on your choices, some might not make it.

So if your Shepard sucks they will die, like I said.

Bantz wrote...

my list of text isn't a waste. Again this
is the end of a trilogy we shouldn't have to go to twitter to figure
things out. Based on the end we get in game my list is correct. Shep
technically has survived the explosion. So does he die painfully, cold
and alone? Or does someone find him? Bioware could say on twitter today
that "a few reapers managed to return to darkspace and avoid
destruction, look out 50000 years later! Would that then fit into the
ending we got IN GAME? no it wouldn't.

Right, hence the DLC. Be patient.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 06 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[Deventh]

ApuLunas wrote...

how many cinderella story you want to read? aren't you a grown up yet?

[jumpingkaede]

Optimystic_X wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

What's the drawback in Destroy?  That the Geth are doomed?  (Which didn't deter me for more than 5 seconds and I love Legion and the Geth).  It actually just seemed like the obvious choice to me because the other two endings had obvious drawbacks.  Destroy was a no-brainer, by comparison.

You're in the minority here. The majority of people that did not pick destroy, did so because they didn't want to genocide the Geth, not because they selfishly wanted their Shepard to live.

Go ahead, poll the forums, I'll wait.

What?  I didn't expect my Shepard to live since the Catalyst says he wouldn't.

What would I be polling the forum on?  

Set the parameters of the poll so I don't waste my time.

Number of people that picked Destroy?  Or number of people that picked Destroy because they thought Shepard would live?  Or the number of people that didn't pick Destroy because they didn't want to kill the Geth.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 06 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[PsyrenY]

Kandon Arc wrote...

Wow dude, you are just cold. You don't give a crap about the majority of the people in the universe. Why do you consider it worth saving then? It ****ing meant something to me when I saw Thessia burn, when Mordin sacrificed himself, when Legion died, when Anderson died after he told me he was proud of me. When I make a choice and people die because of it, you bet I care, even if never met them before.

EDIT: and Anderson always dies, the variable is that you can have a conversation before that happens.

Of course I care, that's why I saved every single person on that lame-ass "sacrifice" list that could be saved.
For the ones that couldn't (Mordin and Thane), I saluted them, but I knew they would have died soon anyway so it had much less impact.

Legion's death is meaningless because any geth you meet knows everything he knew. They will all befriend Shepard in a heartbeat, the one organic that trusted them. What exactly have you lost?

@ Anderson: Did you have him hooked up to EKG? Did you hear the flatline? No? Then you are assuming. Pass out != death.

jumpingkaede wrote...

Number of people that picked
Destroy?  Or number of people that picked Destroy because they thought
Shepard would live?  Or the number of people that didn't pick Destroy
because they didn't want to kill the Geth.

#2 vs. #3.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 06 avril 2012 - 04:03 .

[Bantz]

Optimystic_X wrote...

RyanPun1991 wrote...

So according to you sacrifice only counts if someone important dies, plus if they are already "old" or "sick", then their sacrifice doesn't matter either
Fine[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie] you define it however way you want to

Of course it does.

When you watch a movie and a bunch of background extras die, do you feel the same way you do if a main character died? Of course not. It's storytelling 101, you have to make the audience care about someone or their death has no impact. When Garrus told you "5 million Turians died the first day on Palaven, 9 million the second" did you cry? But I bet you were on the edge of your seat when it looked like Grunt was going to die, weren't you?

RyanPun1991 wrote...

Plus, I totally acknowledge the fact that many names on my list can be saved  but depending on your choices, some might not make it.

So if your Shepard sucks they will die, like I said.

Bantz wrote...

my list of text isn't a waste. Again this
is the end of a trilogy we shouldn't have to go to twitter to figure
things out. Based on the end we get in game my list is correct. Shep
technically has survived the explosion. So does he die painfully, cold
and alone? Or does someone find him? Bioware could say on twitter today
that "a few reapers managed to return to darkspace and avoid
destruction, look out 50000 years later! Would that then fit into the
ending we got IN GAME? no it wouldn't.

Right, hence the DLC. Be patient.

oh I am, i was raging hard yesterday but now I'm calm and just waiting things out to see how they do. I was just pointing out how bad the ending is now even in the "good ending"

[RyanPun1991]

Optimystic_X wrote...

RyanPun1991 wrote...

So according to you sacrifice only counts if someone important dies, plus if they are already "old" or "sick", then their sacrifice doesn't matter either
Fine[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie] you define it however way you want to

Of course it does.

When you watch a movie and a bunch of background extras die, do you feel the same way you do if a main character died? Of course not. It's storytelling 101, you have to make the audience care about someone or their death has no impact. When Garrus told you "5 million Turians died the first day on Palaven, 9 million the second" did you cry? But I bet you were on the edge of your seat when it looked like Grunt was going to die, weren't you?

RyanPun1991 wrote...

Plus, I totally acknowledge the fact that many names on my list can be saved  but depending on your choices, some might not make it.

So if your Shepard sucks they will die, like I said.

Bantz wrote...

my list of text isn't a waste. Again this
is the end of a trilogy we shouldn't have to go to twitter to figure
things out. Based on the end we get in game my list is correct. Shep
technically has survived the explosion. So does he die painfully, cold
and alone? Or does someone find him? Bioware could say on twitter today
that "a few reapers managed to return to darkspace and avoid
destruction, look out 50000 years later! Would that then fit into the
ending we got IN GAME? no it wouldn't.

Right, hence the DLC. Be patient.

To be fair, I think it's not because a player sucks that these people die. I mean, how hard are video games, even on the highest difficulty. Everyone can do a perfect playthrough. I think some players like to experience different journeys with RPGs, that's all. And plus, as I said, not everybody imported their save from the first game. people starting off with ME3 will see a lot more characters die. Not because they suck, just that they never played the first two games.

and again, obviously I care more when I thought Grunt wasn't gonna make it, but hearing millions of people, faceless as they may be, just got wiped out, I care too.

[naddaya]

Kandon Arc wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

And now, a logical fallacy:

"This is an RPG and my choices are supposed to matter." --> "I must be able to choose a happy ending, if I want it."

I think that should be 
"I must be able to achieve a happy ending, if I've worked for it."  

It doesn't work that way. In most cases your choices don't matter, you're screwed anyway. It's against the Reapers, being able to defeat them is hard enough. Not saying that I wouldn't like it. But the destruction feels fitting, in a sad way.

That said, the endings are full of plot holes, but that's another story.

[LightweightJustice]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Kandon Arc wrote...

Wow dude, you are just cold. You don't give a crap about the majority of the people in the universe. Why do you consider it worth saving then? It ****ing meant something to me when I saw Thessia burn, when Mordin sacrificed himself, when Legion died, when Anderson died after he told me he was proud of me. When I make a choice and people die because of it, you bet I care, even if never met them before.

EDIT: and Anderson always dies, the variable is that you can have a conversation before that happens.

Of course I care, that's why I saved every single person on that lame-ass "sacrifice" list that could be saved.
For the ones that couldn't (Mordin and Thane), I saluted them, but I knew they would have died soon anyway so it had much less impact.

Legion's death is meaningless because any geth you meet knows everything he knew. They will all befriend Shepard in a heartbeat, the one organic that trusted them. What exactly have you lost?

@ Anderson: Did you have him hooked up to EKG? Did you hear the flatline? No? Then you are assuming. Pass out != death.

jumpingkaede wrote...

Number of people that picked
Destroy?  Or number of people that picked Destroy because they thought
Shepard would live?  Or the number of people that didn't pick Destroy
because they didn't want to kill the Geth.

#2 vs. #3.

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

[CaliGuy033]

Ryuukishi wrote...

Mass Effect was never a particularly "dark" series in tone despite all the death and chaos involved in the plot. Shepard always found a way to pull through and often without making a significant sacrifice. Determination and smart choices can get you through the supposed "suicide mission" with all 13 participants surviving. I think that right there is proof that Mass Effect was never a brutal/grimdark series.

Um, it's pretty dark, bro.  You have a chance for relative success at the end of the first two games because you aren't yet having to directly face the entire fleet of spacefaring ancient machines who eradicate the galaxy.

[jumpingkaede]

Optimystic_X wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Number of people that picked
Destroy?  Or number of people that picked Destroy because they thought
Shepard would live?  Or the number of people that didn't pick Destroy
because they didn't want to kill the Geth.

#2 vs. #3.

So:

#If you picked Destroy because you thought Shepard would live.

#If you didn't pick Destroy because you didn't want to kill the Geth

?

I also don't know if this helps but most of people in this thread picked Destroy because it was obvious to them as well.  

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10259635

(My thread, yes).

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 06 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[PsyrenY]

LightweightJustice wrote...

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

He copied his memories and even his personality to the Geth. Why would I feel sad about that?

[LightweightJustice]

Optimystic_X wrote...

LightweightJustice wrote...

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

He copied his memories and even his personality to the Geth. Why would I feel sad about that?

You do understand that as a person with "soul" he lived only 10 seconds, don't you?
He copied not his mems, he copied the Reapers code. He died.  And even the Prime geth tells you that Legion is gone for good.

Modifié par LightweightJustice, 06 avril 2012 - 04:11 .

[Ariq]

LightweightJustice wrote...

Seriously.
Just explain it to me.
What is wrong with happy endings?
Is it SO bad to have one?
Is it so cool to dwell in darkness, tears, realism and despair? Is it so cool to watch someone die?
I’m not trying to whine here, I just want some logic. Not just “it’s manlier” or “too mainstream to have good ending”. And please don’t get me wrong. I like bittersweet endings…when they are destined to happen. In ME where “your choices matter”, I would like to HAVE A CHOICE TO CHOOSE.
And what exactly do people want these days? Do they want to smile or do they want to cry?

Because in a war of the scale described, a happy ending is impossible. The fact that some people expected one is itself a pretty cogent argument against having one. It means that the themes of loss and sacrifice have been glossed over by some players and if the writers want to be sure it's clear it needs to be hammered home at the end, with a loss that can't easily be ignored. That means Shepard or a hard choice on crew members similar to Virmire...but with Garrus and Tali or Liara and Joker. Any combination where a 'perfect' resolution is impossible, and maybe you have to choose between Shepard dying or Garrus *and* Tali dying.  

For that to work though, the loss must be truly bittersweet and not nihilistic. I think that's what most people are reacting against: nihilism. Nothing you did mattered. No choice. No sacrifice. None of it mattered. Everything that you cared about in the game got demolished in the end, so why care at all, right? Everyone dying or being ripped away from hope is bad. It doesn't carry much weight because we just want to reject it all.

A bittersweet ending has to have someone left who is able to celebrate, or remember, or even grieve. Maybe that's your LI standing by your grave or memorial statue or whatever. (Which would be a good ending, in my thought). Maybe it's Shepard reflecting on the hard choice, even if he is reunited with his LI. Either of those would be more meaningful than what we got.

But no, I don't think it can be a "happy" ending with rainbows and ponies and flowers in everyone's hair. Because you're right. This is a game about choices. And for choices to matter, they must have consequences. Some (never all!) of those consequences must be unexpected, some of them (not all!) must be bad. Otherwise, you're not choosing anything more significant than your favorite flavour of ice cream. This is a dramatic game, the choices should have more weight than that. ME1 did good on that one, with the Wrex confrontation and Virmire choice (a little heavy handed, but I think it worked.) 

I think DA: Origins struck a near perfect note in that regard. Not only the fight with the archdemon, but also in the epilogue bits, where some of your "good" choices came back and hit you with a unintended consequences. Could you get a 'good' ending? Sure you could, but it always came with a price. You could survive the archdemon and reunite with your LI...if you were willing to sacrifice Alistair...or make a dark deal for the soul of your unborn child....or Alistair's unborn child. That's a choice that takes some thought. But overall, I think DA:O had a happy ending, even when that ending was Alistair giving my characters funeral oration, because you (at least I) felt that the choices did matter, the sacrifice was not in vain, and the hero earned his place in the legends.

The end of ME3? Not so much. I bowed my head to the will of my enemy, accepted his arguments without question, sold out all of the ideals I'd worked 3 games to support, rendered previous sacrifices null, jumped in a beam, stranded my friends on an unknown planet where my LI will likely starve to death because she has Dextro proteins, and then blew up the Mass Relays either in galaxy dooming supernovae or at the least plunging the known universe into a millenial dark age. That isn't bittersweet. it's nihilistic, and people have every right to be upset about the pointlessness of it. Don't make the mistake of demanding the pendulum swing too far the other way. A big party with cake and beer and balloons that forgot the absolutely important themes of loss and sacrifice would have been just as pointless - just easier to stomach, except for the lingering, gagging saccharine. A proper ending was possible, but it had to strike a middle chord.

Modifié par Ariq, 06 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[Kandon Arc]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Kandon Arc wrote...

Wow dude, you are just cold. You don't give a crap about the majority of the people in the universe. Why do you consider it worth saving then? It ****ing meant something to me when I saw Thessia burn, when Mordin sacrificed himself, when Legion died, when Anderson died after he told me he was proud of me. When I make a choice and people die because of it, you bet I care, even if never met them before.

EDIT: and Anderson always dies, the variable is that you can have a conversation before that happens.

Of course I care, that's why I saved every single person on that lame-ass "sacrifice" list that could be saved.
For the ones that couldn't (Mordin and Thane), I saluted them, but I knew they would have died soon anyway so it had much less impact.

Legion's death is meaningless because any geth you meet knows everything he knew. They will all befriend Shepard in a heartbeat, the one organic that trusted them. What exactly have you lost?

@ Anderson: Did you have him hooked up to EKG? Did you hear the flatline? No? Then you are assuming. Pass out != death.

You're saying that millions of people dying doesn't matter. That looks uncaring to me. Legion's death made the geth true AI, as they are true AI they are individuals. Legion is alive in the same way a dead parent is alive in their child. It is absolutely not meaningless.

I cannot believe that is your Anderson argument. The guy was shot in the stomach, went unconscious and was left on an exploding space station. The dude is dead. By your logic, how do we know Kai Leng is dead? Benezia? Mordin? What about the Reapers? We didn't see every last one die, so therefore some could still be alive.

[ApuLunas]

someone else wrote...

ApuLunas wrote...
how many cinderella story you want to read? aren't you a grown up yet?

My aren't we the adult.   Wanting a consistent ending does not equal cinderella - if you don't understand that the end violates every tenet of good narration, gameplay and the internal dynamics of the series you have not done your homework  (sorry, grown ups don't do homework, I forgot)

an ending that forced shepard to choose between a temporary respite from the reapers (send them back to dark space for another 50k) and personal happiness with LI/comrades or a final confrontation and sacrifice that ends the threat forever would do very nicely on all counts, and I believe provide satisfying alternative for the vast majority

ending is the most consistent one i've ever seen, you just don't get the big picture and focus on people's stories, me is much more than people's tales... its not about daily dark stuff, death, economic crisis, political corruption, wars, job crisis and expensive medical treatment... seriously the main subject of the serie is much more universal, i am sure it's disscussed in 1000 years before and will be disscussed 1000 years after, i am sure if there are aliens they disscuss about it too. i am not explaining more because i don't want to spoil of any fun whoever tries to discover it. i don't blame anybody who didn't like it, level of dramatization bioware used caused folk to miss some important details, but i blame people for reaction to the ending (change it or i won't let you play with my ball (bah)), seriously that's childish.

i really don't get one thing, wasn't mordin solus most popular char of the serie? didn't people listened to any word of him? people only remember how he signed and danced? that's disappointing man, and my disappoint is not about the game.

Modifié par ApuLunas, 06 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[PsyrenY]

RyanPun1991 wrote...
and again, obviously I care more when I
thought Grunt wasn't gonna make it, but hearing millions of people,
faceless as they may be, just got wiped out, I care too.

So you admit that you care more about 1 life than 14 million lives?

Don't feel bad - I do too, when that 1 life is a friend and the 14 million aren't. It's human nature/monkeysphere.

jumpingkaede wrote...
So:

Did you pick Destroy because Shepard lives, even knowing that it would mean killing the Geth?

Fixed that wording.

jumpingkaede wrote...
I also don't know if this helps but most of people in this thread picked Destroy because it was obvious to them as well.  

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10259635

(My thread, yes).

Sounds like most picked red because of Anderson and didn't think of the Geth at all.
And most were also looking for the "Paragon" ending, when there isn't supposed to be one.

[Kandon Arc]

m_k wrote...

Kandon Arc wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

And now, a logical fallacy:

"This is an RPG and my choices are supposed to matter." --> "I must be able to choose a happy ending, if I want it."

I think that should be 
"I must be able to achieve a happy ending, if I've worked for it."  

It doesn't work that way. In most cases your choices don't matter, you're screwed anyway. It's against the Reapers, being able to defeat them is hard enough. Not saying that I wouldn't like it. But the destruction feels fitting, in a sad way.

That said, the endings are full of plot holes, but that's another story.

Well it's what we got in ME2, even when we were told it's a suicide mission that we probably won't return from. I think a lot of people confuse dramatic tension with inevitability. If your enemies don't seem very threatening, then overcoming them doesn't feel very epic.

[YukiFA]

Because Legion was an individual at that point. He can't be revived just by finding all the pieces of his code and copying them into a new Geth platform. The Geth Prime that welcomes Admiral Raan to Rannoch even says that Legion sacrificed himself to give all Geth true consiousness.

Legion's death was just as final as Mordin and Thane's.

[Zoedoll]

Optimystic_X wrote...

LightweightJustice wrote...

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

He copied his memories and even his personality to the Geth. Why would I feel sad about that?

The whole point of that part was Legion was now an individual, had a "soul". The other Geth were given the self-awareness and individuality conveyed by the code it uploaded but not its own sense of self. They were their own people.

[naddaya]

Optimystic_X wrote...

LightweightJustice wrote...

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

He copied his memories and even his personality to the Geth. Why would I feel sad about that?

In ME2 (during his loyalty mission I think) Legion himself said that Geths' bodies are just platforms, the only important thing is the data, which can be stored.

[Kandon Arc]

m_k wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

LightweightJustice wrote...

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

He copied his memories and even his personality to the Geth. Why would I feel sad about that?

In ME2 (during his loyalty mission I think) Legion himself said that Geths' bodies are just platforms, the only important thing is the data, which can be stored.

This changes in ME3 though. He becomes true AI, and sacrifices himself to allow others to become true AI too.

[LightweightJustice]

m_k wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

LightweightJustice wrote...

So you are saying that Legion's death is meaningless?
Stone cold, man. Stone cold.

He copied his memories and even his personality to the Geth. Why would I feel sad about that?

In ME2 (during his loyalty mission I think) Legion himself said that Geths' bodies are just platforms, the only important thing is the data, which can be stored.

But in ME 3 that would be imposible to do.
Even the prime geth tells you that.