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The real cause of the difficulty complaints has nothing to do with the game


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#51
Schyzm

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Aezay wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Aezay wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

very fascinating rationalization for denying people the ability to be a jedi in a game based on the star wars universe. but lol I would never pay for a game in the star wars universe where I wasn't a jedi.

The funny thing is though, SWG was so much better before they made Jedi something everyone could be. Then came the CU and then the NGE, after that, most people quit. But before SOE ruined the game, it was the best MMO I've ever played due to its open world, player housing and complexity when it came to crafting.
Sadly I hear crafting in TOR isn't going to be very complex, at least not anything near the SWG level.


how are any of the positive attributes you named mutually exclusive with being a jedi?

SOE changed the entire game over night, they dumbed it down, so it was no longer the game I feel in love with. But I guess new players might like it, at least it still have servers running.
In SWG you could live without doing any killing. You could become a crafter or an entertainer and make your income that way. When they changed the game, they pretty much made the entertainers and crafters useless, so all the people who played the game for those reasons no longer had a game. SWG was WoWifed.

But for an MMO I think its best to make the player a "nobody", it's silly to make everyone a hero. Which is basiclally what you do by letting everyone become a Jedi.



I'm pretty sure a lot of people felt really god damn tricked that they bought a star wars game where they couldn't be a jedi.  just that decision right there must have been made by some enormous ******, "lol yah sure ppl will love our game even though its about star wars and almost no1 is going to be a jedi."   I hope he was fired.

#52
mathewgurney

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I'm playing on the 360 and i mostly like the difficulty setup, crowd control is such a large part of this game that making friendly fire a changing statistic between "normal, hard and nightmare" is excellent game design. I feel that adding an "easy" difficulty was unnecessary.

In my un-informed, personal and definetly not slanderous opinion, easy mode is another of many places where EA decided to make some extra bonus money from thier part-time gamer masses by having Bioware dumb the product down, rather than helping them create a better implementation for the more dedicated and intelligent section of thier consumer base.

Damn chinese ruin MMO's, and you can quote me on that.

#53
Guest_Anzurok_*

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Gliese wrote...
This game harder than BG2? Hardly. Sure there are a ton of exploits in BG2 but you have to work real hard just to learn the ins and outs of that game.
Can you walk into a room and be slaughtered because you're low level in DAO? No. Can you be instakilled by numerous spells? No. Do you have to thoroughly understand the magic system to excel at it? No.


I guess I had it a little easier since I read the AD&D books before that game came out. But still, the companions you get in that game aren't nearly as worthless as the ones you get in DA:O. And that's a big part of the difficulty, as well. Everyone is a weakling until around level 15. They can say this game "scales" with your level but that is garbage. I'm rolling over darkspawn hordes now with little effort, whereas at level 9 I would have wiped if I had made one mistake while fighting such a large group. Killing the dragons at level 18 is a joke, but when I attempted it at level 13 I was stomped into the ground. So yes, you can walk into a room and be slaughtered in DA:O, and you can be insta-killed by numerous spells. Happened to me a lot in this play-through, in fact. At least in BG II, if you had a mage or two and they had the proper spells, or a sorcerer, they could deal with the spell-casters without much of a problem, and probably the rest of the enemies as well.

#54
Guest_Anzurok_*

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Jonfon_ire wrote...

I really haven't found this game any harder than BG2 really. As for money 500 gold = 5000000 copper. BG2 just had a single type of coin, it didn't divide them into divisions. It's just that a Gold piece is worth / means different amounts in both games (I mean didn't an inn in BG2 cost 5 gold a night? 5 chunks of gold to sleep in a room for the night!!!)


You will be hard pressed to find anything worth buying in this game that is sold for silver or copper. Most equipment worth buying is 100-150 gold. A piece.

#55
Dark83

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I'd like to point out that SWRPG games tend not to compose of full parties of Jedi. Plenty of people emulate Han Solo or Boba Fett and such in the universe.

#56
Dark83

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Anzurok wrote...

You will be hard pressed to find anything worth buying in this game that is sold for silver or copper. Most equipment worth buying is 100-150 gold. A piece.

So by "most equipment" you refer to items like the Rose Thorn (best dagger) or Veshelle (best axe), eh? I didn't know "most equipment" consist of the best equipment. :innocent:

#57
Stevebo

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I think alot of it has to do with how gamers have evolved over the years as far as something being a challenge and beating it, and being on easy mode and beating it.



Look at the MMORPG world for example, I played Everquest for years, started around the release of kunark. Everquest had corpse runs, fighting for spawns, ect... the risk was always there and man it could hurt. As annoying as it was at time, it made the game more enjoyable. However, years later things started being added to the game that made traveling more convenient, got rid of corpse runs, got rid of fighting for a spawn (for the most part). Other mmorpg's came out and all seemed to have this same template, easy travel, no corpse runs, no real risk vs reward concept anymore and for the most part it seemed to be this way due to an outcry made by a certain part of the gaming community that demanded the same experiences in gaming as the powergamers because they pay for it and deserve it. Now days games like WoW is the standard.... "its good because alot of people play it, right?" heh

*and I'm not saying its a bad game nor am I putting down people who do/have played it*



Now days it just seems like people don't want to be challenged, they just want to be able to progress thru a game and say "yay I beat it", without having to think. The problem is, its a business, and these people contribute to overall sales just as much as a more hardcore gamer does. So games like your baldurs gate, everquests of old will more likely never happen again due to the risk of them being too hard and not selling.




#58
Dark83

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There's a difference between being challenged by game content, and being challenged by the interface and mechanics.

#59
Setz69

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I consider myself a casual player, but I've never had trouble in this game. A few times I needed to reload on a few key battles, but that's the challenge. I only play on normal, as I feel nightmare or hard would be to difficult to keep me entertained and not tossing my controller around :). My evil elf plays on easy and its more like a hack and slash that way.



I really think bioware did a GREAT job leveling out difficulty for different play styles. Its mostly the few glitches or a few "tough battles that shouldn't be that tough" that need a bit of fixing and I think most of the people would be happy.

#60
sleepy__head

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My two coppers :

The main source of difficulty has nothing to do with potions.  I believe the following factors all attributed to it, none of which the player can do anything about, and they all arisen because the devs deliberately designed it so :

1.  Extremely unfair tactical positioning.  Exactly HOW does a pack of wolf ambush your party, and somehow you cannot see them or DO ANYTHING ABOUT THEM until you are not only surrounded on all sides by wolves, but ringed by leg hold traps, which magically none will affect the wolves?  The game repeatedly places you squarely in these perfect positioned ambushes as if your party is the most incompetent and blind adventurers out there.  A few ambushes like this is fine, but just about every wilderness encounter defaults you into a horrible tactical situation to begin with.

2.  Absurd Move-For-You feature upon dialogue.  Okay, so you see a bunch of bandits in the room ahead.  Naturally anyone with half a brain will move the fighters up front and the mages back.  But the game will FORCE a conversation cutscene with you, even if it is something completely NON INTERACTIVE where the bandit leader says : "You die now!".  Then as soon as the conversation cut scene is over, your party is all bunched up because the game moved all your characters for you, often depositing them squarely in the middle of mobs of perfectly placed enemies.  WHY WOULD I WANT TO WALK MY WHOLE PARTY FORWARD JUST TO HEAR A BANDIT LEADER SAY "You die now" AND SCREW UP MY TACTICAL PREPARATION?

3.  Abuse of crowd control and knockdowns.  There are, at most, 4 of you in your party.  The enemies invariably outnumber you.  So when there are mass amounts of stuns, sleep, knockdowns, knockbacks flying out, you can essentially get into a situation where you are perma-controlled.  You have the same cc's but since you are outnumbered, the advantage automatically shifts to your opponents.

4.  Imbalances between melee and magic.  My first play through was with a warrior.  My second was with a mage and it was sickening how much easier it was to just throw fireballs everywhere.  Ever noticed how the game likes to auto-save whenever you are about to face a darkspawn emissary or a group of mages?  Thats because the devs know how out of balance it is.  So in order to combat all the unfairness, you have to use the unbalanced magic system to counter things.  This is problem is also further exasperated by the imbalanced between stamina and mana.

5.  As if that isn't bad enough, even if you do overcome the challenges, you aren't rewarded for it so you can be better prepared for the next ordeal.  You can kill 10 fighters, 6 archers and 5 mages only to pick up a couple elfroots and lesser health poultice at the end.  Less money = less ability to buy better equipment to face the challenges.

6.  Wasting points on Tactics.  The tactics slots are there to compensating for the game's bad AI.  So why do the PLAYERS have to spend their valuable points on these things?  Points wasted here are points that aren't going into other essentially skills.

7.  Last but not least, LACK OF INFORMATION.  The game and the manual (lol) don't tell you much of anything.  Unless you go online to do research, you often can't tell what something is supposed to do.  In a game like Dragon Age, you really can't afford to squander points or buy bad skills (which there are many).  In the absence of information it is easy to gimp your character beyond salvation.


I know some people will chime in and say : "But I solo'd nightmare with a <insert class> doing <insert tricks>."  Unfortunately, personal anedotal testimonies, while interesting, do not equate proof.  Show us why the above points are untrue, then you have a case.  Otherwise we need to accept that Dragon Age, while a great game, does not treat the players fairly as one would expect between GM (Bioware) and players (their customers).

#61
Destalen

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Mordaedil wrote...

But Blizzard still counts me as one of their 13 million players, and I have not done anything with WoW since I sold the game away after the free month expired.

They are just taking their best numbers and using that for marketing. Sure, a lot of people still play WoW, but the expansion packs aren't selling *that* well. Not 13 million well, anyway.


God point here.  I can think of over 40 peope that I know IRL(that added up fast considering I'm not a student or soething...sheesh) that have played WoW at one point or another. Of those peple I can only think of 3...THREE that still play to this day.    I'm not saying those figures hold true world-wide, but they are an indicator that nowhere near as many peole pay WoW as they once did.  Blizzard just adds every account ever made as a 'player'.


Actually, no Blizzard does not count people who's accounts are no longer active in their 12 million number, that's just active subscribers.  I'm fairly certain they said in an article that if they counted every account it would be ~40-50 million.

#62
scrimex

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The real cause of the difficulty complaints has nothing to do with the game. If you find the game too easy play solo with no armour and no weapon.If you find it too hard get a pg rated game and ask mom or dad is it suitable for you.

#63
Adnihilis

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I don't respond on this forum much, but here's one:



I really liked sleepy_head's post above. I agree with all his points, and they are the reasons I sometimes have a difficult time playing through. Particularly, when a cutscene leaves you surrounded and "un-positioned." As I'm on the PS3, moving each party member into a specific location is already much more difficult than it is on PC. Post-cutscene placement by the game is almost like adding insult to injury for me.



I enjoy the game, despite feeling it's a bit too difficult (again, on the PS3 and playing as a rogue). That's for me, personally. I like the spells, the mechanics, the lore, the dialog, the atmosphere, etc. What I don't enjoy is reading comments about how I'm less than respectable for being a casual gamer or that my intellect is questionably inferior somehow on account of it. My tastes in film, literature and music are usually far more "elitist high brow" than what the mainstream usually stomachs, so please don't come at me or anyone of a like mind (with regards to this game's difficulty) with the automatic "he wants it dumbed down 'cause he can't cut it" rhetoric. I assure you, that's the last thing I want. Intelligence and difficulty don't equate each other.



Oh, and as for there being fewer expansion sales than for the original WoW sales, you people DO realize that it doesn't mean every single person who played the original game went out and bought an expansion, right? It is entirely realistic to say that some people could still play the original game without opting to buy anything else for it. I mean, they're already forking over "extra" money each month for their subscription. Not everyone wants to buy each and every single thing when the cost adds up. As I doubt any of us here works for Blizzard, all of this is nothing more than speculation as we don't know the entirety of the picture. As usual. Besides, it loses sight of the original point of this thread.

#64
mrmike_1949

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Oliver Sudden wrote...

I've often thought an easy way for BioWare to make the game easier for those having trouble would be to let people save during battles. I'm not always happy having to do the entire fight again when I make a mistake, and it would be easier for those having troubles not to have to take out all the minions or the big guy each time.


Great idea, especially for those really loooooonnngggg battles, like Redcliffe, the Broodmother, or the Archdemon.

But, I think it's a problem because it would mean saving the type/health/position of every enemy on screen, or even those nearing the battle field, as well as saving any effects going on, like Inferno/Blizzard/Earthquake, etc. Save files would be a lot more complicated and larger

MikeK

#65
sleepy__head

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Adnihilis wrote...

I don't respond on this forum much, but here's one:

I really liked sleepy_head's post above. I agree with all his points, and they are the reasons I sometimes have a difficult time playing through. Particularly, when a cutscene leaves you surrounded and "un-positioned." As I'm on the PS3, moving each party member into a specific location is already much more difficult than it is on PC. Post-cutscene placement by the game is almost like adding insult to injury for me.

I enjoy the game, despite feeling it's a bit too difficult (again, on the PS3 and playing as a rogue). That's for me, personally. I like the spells, the mechanics, the lore, the dialog, the atmosphere, etc. What I don't enjoy is reading comments about how I'm less than respectable for being a casual gamer or that my intellect is questionably inferior somehow on account of it. My tastes in film, literature and music are usually far more "elitist high brow" than what the mainstream usually stomachs, so please don't come at me or anyone of a like mind (with regards to this game's difficulty) with the automatic "he wants it dumbed down 'cause he can't cut it" rhetoric. I assure you, that's the last thing I want. Intelligence and difficulty don't equate each other.

Oh, and as for there being fewer expansion sales than for the original WoW sales, you people DO realize that it doesn't mean every single person who played the original game went out and bought an expansion, right? It is entirely realistic to say that some people could still play the original game without opting to buy anything else for it. I mean, they're already forking over "extra" money each month for their subscription. Not everyone wants to buy each and every single thing when the cost adds up. As I doubt any of us here works for Blizzard, all of this is nothing more than speculation as we don't know the entirety of the picture. As usual. Besides, it loses sight of the original point of this thread.



Thank you.  I too dislike the gross generalization of those who claimed that the people who think the game is too hard are noobs, carebears, pansies or stupid.

#66
scrimex

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Thank you. I too dislike the gross generalization of those who claimed that the people who think the game is too hard are noobs, carebears, pansies or stupid ............. I agree totally with this statement.........My point is that it's an18 rated game, it wasn't meant for children. Just because you have to think about strategy is unusual for some players, some work, some don't.Put time into the game and it will pay you back.

#67
xguild

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There are a lot of presumptious assumptions in this topic much of them with no truth at all, I mean take Everquest as SteveB mentioned. Corpse runs, harsh death penalties, spawn camping... these are things everyone complained about then and its what everyone complains about today. These where things that detered from the fun of Everquest, its sure as hell not what made the game fun. In fact its exactly the addition of those elements in the game and the barrage of requests to eliminate them that drove the industry to do so. It simply wasn't any fun at all and the majority of players agreed.  The industry learned that punishing players for playing their game was not a good way to challenge them and that remains true today.

The problem with a lot of gamers today is they simply play too much and they spend way too much time trying to analyze every bloody part of a game. Everything is easy if you spend all your time trying to figuire out how to do it well.

Modifié par xguild, 05 décembre 2009 - 07:03 .


#68
Faust1979

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 I'm one of the ones having problems on easy. I had a few problems mainly in the early stages of the game but then I got used to it the. Then bam I can't even get past the final onslaught I got frustrated and said screw it. I couldn't get past the final part and I just gave up I love the game but not enough to keep frustrating myself trying to beat it

#69
andrewlkt

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sleepy__head wrote...

My two coppers :

The main source of difficulty has nothing to do with potions.  I believe the following factors all attributed to it, none of which the player can do anything about, and they all arisen because the devs deliberately designed it so :

1.  Extremely unfair tactical positioning.  Exactly HOW does a pack of wolf ambush your party, and somehow you cannot see them or DO ANYTHING ABOUT THEM until you are not only surrounded on all sides by wolves, but ringed by leg hold traps, which magically none will affect the wolves?  The game repeatedly places you squarely in these perfect positioned ambushes as if your party is the most incompetent and blind adventurers out there.  A few ambushes like this is fine, but just about every wilderness encounter defaults you into a horrible tactical situation to begin with.

2.  Absurd Move-For-You feature upon dialogue.  Okay, so you see a bunch of bandits in the room ahead.  Naturally anyone with half a brain will move the fighters up front and the mages back.  But the game will FORCE a conversation cutscene with you, even if it is something completely NON INTERACTIVE where the bandit leader says : "You die now!".  Then as soon as the conversation cut scene is over, your party is all bunched up because the game moved all your characters for you, often depositing them squarely in the middle of mobs of perfectly placed enemies.  WHY WOULD I WANT TO WALK MY WHOLE PARTY FORWARD JUST TO HEAR A BANDIT LEADER SAY "You die now" AND SCREW UP MY TACTICAL PREPARATION?

3.  Abuse of crowd control and knockdowns.  There are, at most, 4 of you in your party.  The enemies invariably outnumber you.  So when there are mass amounts of stuns, sleep, knockdowns, knockbacks flying out, you can essentially get into a situation where you are perma-controlled.  You have the same cc's but since you are outnumbered, the advantage automatically shifts to your opponents.

4.  Imbalances between melee and magic.  My first play through was with a warrior.  My second was with a mage and it was sickening how much easier it was to just throw fireballs everywhere.  Ever noticed how the game likes to auto-save whenever you are about to face a darkspawn emissary or a group of mages?  Thats because the devs know how out of balance it is.  So in order to combat all the unfairness, you have to use the unbalanced magic system to counter things.  This is problem is also further exasperated by the imbalanced between stamina and mana.

5.  As if that isn't bad enough, even if you do overcome the challenges, you aren't rewarded for it so you can be better prepared for the next ordeal.  You can kill 10 fighters, 6 archers and 5 mages only to pick up a couple elfroots and lesser health poultice at the end.  Less money = less ability to buy better equipment to face the challenges.

6.  Wasting points on Tactics.  The tactics slots are there to compensating for the game's bad AI.  So why do the PLAYERS have to spend their valuable points on these things?  Points wasted here are points that aren't going into other essentially skills.

7.  Last but not least, LACK OF INFORMATION.  The game and the manual (lol) don't tell you much of anything.  Unless you go online to do research, you often can't tell what something is supposed to do.  In a game like Dragon Age, you really can't afford to squander points or buy bad skills (which there are many).  In the absence of information it is easy to gimp your character beyond salvation.


I know some people will chime in and say : "But I solo'd nightmare with a doing ."  Unfortunately, personal anedotal testimonies, while interesting, do not equate proof.  Show us why the above points are untrue, then you have a case.  Otherwise we need to accept that Dragon Age, while a great game, does not treat the players fairly as one would expect between GM (Bioware) and players (their customers).



1. So what?
2. So what?
3. So what?
4. Ok, you have a point there.
5. You don't need to be fully decked out in the best gear. I did everything before Landsmeet, except Orzammar, with basic leather armor on my rogue main.
6. That's why you're having difficulty. Learn to pause and issue commands to your groupmates. You should rarely have any activated skills on tactics, except for your healer. Pause and do them manually.
7. With the game as new as it is, online doesn't have that much more information about the formulas or detailed description of the skills. I doubt that's why some people are having a much easier time than others.


Since people have already made the WoW comparisons, I'll bring it up again. Blizzard has now let players try encounters on both normal and hard modes (heroice and non-heroic, they call it). With a few exceptions, enemies have the same exact abilities on normal and hard modes. The only difference is the numbers, how much damage those abilities do and how long they last. But the difference in difficulty is night and day. The hard modes require close to precise positioning and timing and all sorts of rotations. The normal modes don't hit hard enough for it to matter. You can just wing it and come out fine.

The positioning and the AI is terrible in this game, I agree. However, in the easier difficulties, it really doesn't matter as the enemies aren't strong enough for it to matter. I've had a few moments of frustration, but most of them involved revenants and dragons. The rest of the game isn't really as hard, no matter how badly it positions your party. I can give you all the points above as true yet it still doesn't make the game that difficult on the easier difficulties. I doubt Shaq cares if he's badly positioned and surrounded by a mob of kids trying to tickle him.

I play on normal, so I don't know how much of a cakewalk easy mode is. And the console version is supposedly even easier as well, according to all the reviewers.

#70
soteria

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My first playthrough, on hard, was fairly difficult. Nothing insanely challenging, but there were a few encounters that gave me pause for a while. My second playthrough, on nightmare, has been a breeze. Except for a few irritating moments in the fade when an Ogre kicked my butt and I couldn't do a thing about it (Ramming me 3x in a row and then grabbing me, several reloads in a row), it's been almost boring. I'm a little concerned about my upcoming mage playthrough.



I suspect part of the reason the game has been so much easier is that the stat bonuses and such you get for being the PC have made it much easier on a PC tank than it was for Alistair.

#71
Stanley Woo

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There are already many threads on this forum discussing the difficulty of DAO. Please use one of them to discuss game difficulty. Thank you.



ENd of line.