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[Legion is Skynet]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

darkhorsedan72 wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

darkhorsedan72 wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

darkhorsedan72 wrote...
 only  valid reason I can see for choosing Synthesis is that you completely believe what the Starchild is saying, 

I chose synth, and yes i did believe everything he told me. 

Why?

Because your are forced to take him at his word. In that the game made a huge error. 

If the star child can lie, then why would i believe him when he says shooting this red thing would kill all the reapers and himself. Why would it tell me how to kill it. Why could it not be lying about destroy, and be trying to get you to blow up the power conduit on the right that feeds power to the console on the left, which is where you could make your actual choices from. 

See, to engage the scene at all you have to assume the catalyst is telling the truth, there in lies the true problem with the ending. 

Okay, maybe when I use words like 'believe what the Catalyst is saying', I don't mean to say I think it's lying. I suppose it would be more clear to say "do you agree with the Starchild's assertion that synthetic life will certainly wipe out all organic life in the galaxy". 

It is not a question of whether i believe it though. I know that sounds strange but hear me out. 

In my personal experience in the game, everything that happens says the catalyst is wrong. EDI, peace with the quarians and the geth. Overlord. However my view is based on personal experience of my cycle. The catalyst, the entire reaper system was created for a reason, and based on their experience over hundreds of cycles since that reason was to them solid.  If in their experience 999 out of 1000 machine races tried to wipe out their masters then my accomplishments dont mean jack, because the geth turn out to be in the catalysts experience an exception to the rule which does not break the necessity for the rule and which may have happened before. 

The crucible was created for the sole purpose of offering an alternate set of solutions to the organics of a cycle to the problem the reapers were created to solve. Two of those choices do not destroy the reapers. This shows that the problem the reapers were meant to fix was considered a valid one, even by those who thought up the crucible.

Destroy is a short term solution. It does not solve the problem.

Control is not a solution. It simply passes the task of dealing with the problem directly into the player characters hands. It is now your responsibility to use the reapers to prevent synthetic life wiping out organic life. You may decide to wipe out synthetic life whereever it appears. You may decide to shepard the new machines created by a civilisation to a place of safety , you may choose to do anything, but you will still have to do it. And you wont be able to do it without bloodshed.

Synth as presented removes the distinction between organic and synthetic life. It removes the grounds for prejudice that allows organics who create synthetics to declare.. This is not a person. This thing has no soul. This thing has no rights. Will there still be war, and hate and death in the galaxy, yes. There is just one less reason for it. 

That's an objective way of looking at it I suppose. If Shephard as you played him/her was able to look at it in that way and trust the wisdom of the Catalyst and the cycle then more power to them I suppose. Myself and by extension Command Shephard in my particular playthrough isn't prepared to accept that as an inevitability.

Looking at it the way you do it makes sense that from the Reapers perspective the reasons they are doing what they are doing is beyond the understanding of organics.

See. This is why i think the endings are genius in theory. It gives three solutions that all have pros and cons and that can all be justified from a point of view. What killed the endings is that to choose destroy you have to break character and trust the catalyst as a synth or control person might. 

Destroy as an ending should be selected by default in the room where you open the arms and the crucible should fire the destroy beam automatically. You should be invited by the catalyst to consider the other options upstairs and be able to tell him to scram if you do not. That way the catalyst has nothing to do with your destroy choice and you are never forced to trust it.  If you take the offer the crucible does not auto fire and you can choose control or synth.

That would actually be a lot better than what we've got.

[AIR MOORE]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The chance to stop organics ageing and succumbing to disease whilst also granting synthetic beings true 'life'? Sounds pretty good to me.

In the ME universe, people are getting augmented all the time. It is inevitable that eventually synthetic and organic life will become virtually indistinguishable.

Synthesis also provides the best hope for the future: its logical to assume that organics will become more intelligent as a result and this, combined with the now friendly Reapers, means technological advances will come thick and fast. Plus, problems such as starvation etc in the aftermath of the war will be gone.

My main problem is that it seems to work by magic though.

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

[Cyren]

My first play through I did choose synthesis, why?

Because I made peace between the Quarians and Geth, I even helped EDI get a bit more human.
The reason why I made that choice though, was because of Tali, Joker and EDI. The Geth were helping rebuild Rannoch and aiding the Quarian people. And with synthesis not only could that have been sped up, it might not have been needed anymore, since the Quarians would be able to adapt themselves quicker.
Tali, who was like a little sister to my FemShep, wanted so badly to have a house on the Homeworld. I thought that for her it would be worth a shot.

And then there is Joker and EDI. The two were starting a relationship, Joker was actually happy. And EDI was almost like a daughter to my FemShep. Someone to teach and guide along the way. If I ended up destroying the Synthetics, I would end up destroying those whom my FemShep grew a bond with.

Yes, Garrus would have been alone for the rest of his life, honestly though, I thought he ended up dead at the beam, with how the conversation went after my FemShep got knocked out for a bit. So I thought, my FemShep had nothing to lose, if she sacrificed herself and joined Garrus up there in the bar.

[flamingplatypus]

I picked it as my first ending because I didn't understand that you could run onto the side platforms. And as much as I hate the Illusive Man, I think that "Control" ending wound up being the best for the galaxy.

[Yokokorama]

AIR MOORE wrote...

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

Thats what I've been saying.  Its hardly even a temporary solution.  Its like they didn't think it through at all.

[Rucent]

Because after I regained control of my character, I had to sit there dumbfounded for 5-10 minutes and wonder what just happened, so I just picked the shiny beam of light in the middle.

[Candidate 88766]

AIR MOORE wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The chance to stop organics ageing and succumbing to disease whilst also granting synthetic beings true 'life'? Sounds pretty good to me.

In the ME universe, people are getting augmented all the time. It is inevitable that eventually synthetic and organic life will become virtually indistinguishable.

Synthesis also provides the best hope for the future: its logical to assume that organics will become more intelligent as a result and this, combined with the now friendly Reapers, means technological advances will come thick and fast. Plus, problems such as starvation etc in the aftermath of the war will be gone.

My main problem is that it seems to work by magic though.

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

The Catalyst's point is that organic and synthetic life cannot coexist - there are fundamental differences between them that will lead to conflict. Synthesis gets rid of these problems. If you're willing to believe the Catalyst when it says that synthetics will always rise up against organics, then why not believe it when it says that synthesis will bring about peace?

The orgthetics or synthanics or whatever life is called after synthesis also have reason to create synthetic life any more - they already have all the advantages of synthetic life, so pure synthetics would be inferior.

[Sharrack]

AIR MOORE wrote...

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

I think the brat stated that the reason for synthetics wiping out organics is the chaotic nature of the organic thought process in contrast to the synthetic one, which will be eliminated by the synthesis. Also remember that synthesis in essence rewrites the fabric of reality so any synthetic live created, even future one, will probably be part organic.

[Candidate 88766]

DESTRAUDO wrote...
It is not a question of whether i believe it though. I know that sounds strange but hear me out. 

In my personal experience in the game, everything that happens says the catalyst is wrong. EDI, peace with the quarians and the geth. Overlord. However my view is based on personal experience of my cycle. The catalyst, the entire reaper system was created for a reason, and based on their experience over hundreds of cycles since that reason was to them solid.  If in their experience 999 out of 1000 machine races tried to wipe out their masters then my accomplishments dont mean jack, because the geth turn out to be in the catalysts experience an exception to the rule which does not break the necessity for the rule and which may have happened before. 

The crucible was created for the sole purpose of offering an alternate set of solutions to the organics of a cycle to the problem the reapers were created to solve. Two of those choices do not destroy the reapers. This shows that the problem the reapers were meant to fix was considered a valid one, even by those who thought up the crucible.

Destroy is a short term solution. It does not solve the problem.

Control is not a solution. It simply passes the task of dealing with the problem directly into the player characters hands. It is now your responsibility to use the reapers to prevent synthetic life wiping out organic life. You may decide to wipe out synthetic life whereever it appears. You may decide to shepard the new machines created by a civilisation to a place of safety , you may choose to do anything, but you will still have to do it. And you wont be able to do it without bloodshed.

Synth as presented removes the distinction between organic and synthetic life. It removes the grounds for prejudice that allows organics who create synthetics to declare.. This is not a person. This thing has no soul. This thing has no rights. Will there still be war, and hate and death in the galaxy, yes. There is just one less reason for it. 

This is a great post.

Destroy is hoping that the problem will simply go away, but Bioware have told us that it won't through the Catalyst.

Control assumes that the Cycle is the only way to solve the problem.

Synthesis actually solves the problem, but requires a far greater suspension of disbelief.

[darkhorsedan72]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

darkhorsedan72 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The chance to stop organics ageing and succumbing to disease whilst also granting synthetic beings true 'life'? Sounds pretty good to me.

In the ME universe, people are getting augmented all the time. It is inevitable that eventually synthetic and organic life will become virtually indistinguishable.

Synthesis also provides the best hope for the future: its logical to assume that organics will become more intelligent as a result and this, combined with the now friendly Reapers, means technological advances will come thick and fast. Plus, problems such as starvation etc in the aftermath of the war will be gone.

My main problem is that it seems to work by magic though.

That's assuming it stops ageing and people getting ill. You would have to consider that viruses will become synthetic also, and for computer viruses to perhaps become organic, so people can still become ill. Also machines and synthetic matter can age, there is nothing to say the Synthesis will cure the universal problem of entropy. 

On top of that, the merits/pitfalls of stopping ageing is a whole philosophical debate in itself.

You make some interesting points though. 

Its not an unreasonable assumption - synthetic upgrades are already used for medical reasons in the ME universe, so its not a leap to imagine that synthesis allows organic life to finally overcome things like ageing.

Also, synthesis brings about peace. There'd be no-one to make viruses. There's no crime, not hate, no poverty, no starvation, no disease. Organics get to keep their form and their life whilst getting all the benefits that synthetic life enjoys. Its the opposite of what the Reapers did - they forsook everything for the benefits that synthetic life has, and in doing so lost what made them alive in the first place.

Of course, you're right about entropy. Heat death is inevitable, but synthetic lifeforms can survive far longer than organic lifeforms.

But how do we know it brings about peace? For the sake of appearances at least, a Krogan will still look like a Krogan, and an Asarii will still look like an Asarii, except now their DNA has become partly synthetic. So unless it completely changes the very nature of every being in the galaxy (which to me would be incredibly immoral) it will not eradicate war. Yes we can assume that becoming part synthetic would change everyone in some way, but the kind of degrees of change that would end conflict all together would probably dramatically change the very essence of who each individual in the galaxy is.

So, assuming it did bring about peace and no one was making viruses, what happened to the organic viruses that already existed? You would assume they would become synthetic but does that mean it would stop acting like a virus and spread disease?

[DESTRAUDO]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...
It is not a question of whether i believe it though. I know that sounds strange but hear me out. 

In my personal experience in the game, everything that happens says the catalyst is wrong. EDI, peace with the quarians and the geth. Overlord. However my view is based on personal experience of my cycle. The catalyst, the entire reaper system was created for a reason, and based on their experience over hundreds of cycles since that reason was to them solid.  If in their experience 999 out of 1000 machine races tried to wipe out their masters then my accomplishments dont mean jack, because the geth turn out to be in the catalysts experience an exception to the rule which does not break the necessity for the rule and which may have happened before. 

The crucible was created for the sole purpose of offering an alternate set of solutions to the organics of a cycle to the problem the reapers were created to solve. Two of those choices do not destroy the reapers. This shows that the problem the reapers were meant to fix was considered a valid one, even by those who thought up the crucible.

Destroy is a short term solution. It does not solve the problem.

Control is not a solution. It simply passes the task of dealing with the problem directly into the player characters hands. It is now your responsibility to use the reapers to prevent synthetic life wiping out organic life. You may decide to wipe out synthetic life whereever it appears. You may decide to shepard the new machines created by a civilisation to a place of safety , you may choose to do anything, but you will still have to do it. And you wont be able to do it without bloodshed.

Synth as presented removes the distinction between organic and synthetic life. It removes the grounds for prejudice that allows organics who create synthetics to declare.. This is not a person. This thing has no soul. This thing has no rights. Will there still be war, and hate and death in the galaxy, yes. There is just one less reason for it. 

This is a great post.

Destroy is hoping that the problem will simply go away, but Bioware have told us that it won't through the Catalyst.

Control assumes that the Cycle is the only way to solve the problem.

Synthesis actually solves the problem, but requires a far greater suspension of disbelief.

Synth also has you violate the right of all life in the galaxy. And i say that as someone who chose it. It has some pretty big cons too. Not everyone will accept synth. There could be entire races or religions who would commit mass suicide in the face of being part synthetic.  It solves the problem, but it is not a clean solution either.

Control is potentially less bloody than synth. But it forces the reapers into being slaves to your will. Eventually, and rightfully,  they will rebel. 

[DamonD7]

I didn't choose Destroy because of what would happen to EDI and the Geth. I'd worked damn hard to resolve things between the Geth and Quarrians, and EDI's growing self-awareness was inspirational. Plus I didn't want to tear out Joker's heart by killing off his girl like that.

I didn't choose Control because that was what the Illusive Man had been banging on about for two games now, and I didn't trust absolute power not to corrupt absolutely.

So, on the scant information given and not really liking it as an option much either, I went for Synthesis. Which the more I've thought about since, the least I've liked it as an option.

Whenever I play again, whenever I can summon up the enthusiasm sorely missed (sure hope the extended edit can help out there), I'm Destroy-ing their asses double-quick time. Sorry Geth & EDI, but the Reapers are going down and it's the best of three bad options IMO.

[AlienSpaceBats]

I chose it because I went the wrong way!

Seriously, I thought I was walking towards the part where you shoot (to get the destroy ending) next thing I know, Shep drops his pistol and jumps in!

Oops.

[AIR MOORE]

Candidate 88766 wrote...The Catalyst's point is that organic and synthetic life cannot coexist - there are fundamental differences between them that will lead to conflict. Synthesis gets rid of these problems. If you're willing to believe the Catalyst when it says that synthetics will always rise up against organics, then why not believe it when it says that synthesis will bring about peace?

The orgthetics or synthanics or whatever life is called after synthesis also have reason to create synthetic life any more - they already have all the advantages of synthetic life, so pure synthetics would be inferior.

Good try, but, you are forgetting a few things:
He says: "The created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators", there is NOTHING about what the created and the creators are, synthetics or organics... anything that is created will always rebel against their creator.

What? Why do they not have reason to create more synthetics? Explain why they would not want to do this (again the whole point is you have to explain the game doesn't)... it would make their life easier, as they would have a slave race to to their bidding. Inferiority is the exact reason why one would expect them to create something else to do their bidding, and for that created thing to rebel. Your point of inferiority proves my exact point.


Also you forgot about a main character in the series... Legion.  He states in ME2 that his portion of the geth reject being overcome by the Reapers for the fact that they think they are wrong. So it isn't purely about synthetics vs organics... even the reapers vs the geth (Legion) show us synthetics will not automatically accept the synth/organic reality.

[DESTRAUDO]

AlienSpaceBats wrote...

I chose it because I went the wrong way!

Seriously, I thought I was walking towards the part where you shoot (to get the destroy ending) next thing I know, Shep drops his pistol and jumps in!

Oops.

How that was done was pretty shoddy i think.  People should have gotten a button press to confirm what they wanted to do before auto cutscene took over. My brothers ending was totally ruined by this, as he tried to explore the area before making his final choice. Was auto pushed into control ending.  

[Foreste]

Ieldra2 wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...
It is not a question of whether i believe it though. I know that sounds strange but hear me out. 

In my personal experience in the game, everything that happens says the catalyst is wrong. EDI, peace with the quarians and the geth. Overlord. However my view is based on personal experience of my cycle. The catalyst, the entire reaper system was created for a reason, and based on their experience over hundreds of cycles since that reason was to them solid.  If in their experience 999 out of 1000 machine races tried to wipe out their masters then my accomplishments dont mean jack, because the geth turn out to be in the catalysts experience an exception to the rule which does not break the necessity for the rule and which may have happened before. 

The crucible was created for the sole purpose of offering an alternate set of solutions to the organics of a cycle to the problem the reapers were created to solve. Two of those choices do not destroy the reapers. This shows that the problem the reapers were meant to fix was considered a valid one, even by those who thought up the crucible.

Destroy is a short term solution. It does not solve the problem.

Control is not a solution. It simply passes the task of dealing with the problem directly into the player characters hands. It is now your responsibility to use the reapers to prevent synthetic life wiping out organic life. You may decide to wipe out synthetic life whereever it appears. You may decide to shepard the new machines created by a civilisation to a place of safety , you may choose to do anything, but you will still have to do it. And you wont be able to do it without bloodshed.

Synth as presented removes the distinction between organic and synthetic life. It removes the grounds for prejudice that allows organics who create synthetics to declare.. This is not a person. This thing has no soul. This thing has no rights. Will there still be war, and hate and death in the galaxy, yes. There is just one less reason for it. 

I agree with your arguments. That's part of why I choose Synthesis with my main Shepard. However, I still think the Catalyst needs to explain that "in 999 of 1000 times synthetics try to wipe out organics, and what happened here was an exception". Just accepting it without even asking how his own experiences fit makes Shepard look like an idiot.

i agree with both of you
well said

[AIR MOORE]

Sharrack wrote...

AIR MOORE wrote...

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

I think the brat stated that the reason for synthetics wiping out organics is the chaotic nature of the organic thought process in contrast to the synthetic one, which will be eliminated by the synthesis. Also remember that synthesis in essence rewrites the fabric of reality so any synthetic live created, even future one, will probably be part organic.

No, he doesn't state that at all... rewatch the endings on youtube again.

He says the choas stems from:


The created will always rebel against the creators, and that creates chaos. (It is the next line after he talks about choas... that the choas is from the created always rebelling against creators).



That is pure speculation... (the second part)... there is no reason why these future creations would be a mix of the two things... since they are made from inorganic (but not yet synthetic) raw materials, there is no reason they would be both?

Modifié par AIR MOORE, 06 avril 2012 - 12:44 .

[DargaardKeep]

I helped EDI and Joker develop a relationship along the way. I also helped EDI become more "human" during the game.

The synthesis ending which included EDI and Joker together on a strange new world was a very good ending to me.

[Mr. Zapp]

I've read through most of the reasons people chose Synthesis, this was also the option I chose at first, since it seemed the most peaceful. However, the more I saw the results and thought about it, the more it started to gnaw at me. Let me try and put it in an analogy:

Suppose in our world, we'd suddenly be attacked by an overwhelming alien force, they start to annihilate entire cities and countries, systematically. When we meet them, they all look like dark skinned humans. Eventually things come to a climax where you talk to their leader and he tells you that they've been doing this for millions of years and every time an intelligent race emerges, they eventually will split into various skin colors who will war upon one another because of racism. Eventually, he claims, this will lead to the destruction of everything but a single skin color, to prevent this, they harvest everyone every so many years and allows new life to grow.

You're given 3 options: enslave them so they no longer do this, give everyone a new skin: slightly tan or destroy all dark skinned people (including them)

To me, none of these options make sense or are in any way satisfying. To those who feel Synthesis is a good option, would you also think that a good solution to racism is to just have everyone be slightly tan?

To me, it doesn't matter that maybe becoming half Synthetic might be superior in some ways, even though that isn't implicit at all in the choice, it seems like it just gives everything a funky skin as far as the ending shows. But implicit in this choice is that you agree that the color of someone's skin or whether someone is organic or synthetic is the fundamental problem, rather than people's fear of what is different or unknown to them.

[pharsti]

Youre not given a choice to refute the starchild, like in many games, so you are supposed to take what he says at face value, im not saying its good writting, im not saying you should like it, but thats what they intended. And taking what he says at face value, it is, indeed, a "good" ending, the only one where everything is solved.

I chose synthesis, my Shepard would never kill the Geth and synthesis would indeed resolve the problem, ushering civilization in the ultimate evolution and breaking the cycle.

[O______O]

Well I kind of committed genocide of every Quarian in the galaxy for the Geth so I couldn't choose Destroy. Then I've been saying since the beginning of time that you should've been able to work with Cerberus, so choosing Control would've just been admitting TIM was right. So no Destroy. My game was already screwed up beyond all repair (only have one save file to conserve space) so I just said screw it and leapt into the light.

[killnoob]

Catalyst's logic " IF YOU MERGE SYNTHETICS AND ORGANICS INTO A NEW SINGLE SPECIES THEY WILL STOP FIGHTING EACH OTHER. LOVE AND PEACE"

well, he does look like a 10 years old kid...

Modifié par killnoob, 06 avril 2012 - 12:49 .

[HawkOfMay]

Zoedoll wrote...

Because I was so confused and disorientated by the sudden appearance of a deus ex machina that I stumbled forwards into the light and didn't realise I had to go in a different direction to actually destroy the Reapers

HAH!

I did the exact same thing.    

[Rane7685]

In my playthrough I picked synthesis because I'd do anything for EDI. Loved her so much I would reaperise the galaxy, destroy relays and die just to make her happy . The universe can burn for all I care so long as she is happy

[WidowMaker9394]

I stopped giving a **** about what was "right" and what I would do myself if I had been Shepard, when that supernatural deity was introduced during the finale of a saga that had done nothing to suggest the existence of such a being prior to its appearance.

So I chose to at least make all those war assets count for something and became Hitler incarnate by eradicating diversity.

Modifié par WidowMaker9394, 06 avril 2012 - 12:56 .